Mathematical Proof Of God

[Guest nat]

MM

 

imbecile

 

Do you not know that a numbers of articles were written that claim that the Torah supports eugenics.

 

You could have made that claim, and at one point it seems like you did. 

 

In any case, your original argument that you can't infer anything from the Torah about eugenics is completely fallacious.

 

So when I say the Torah is against eugenics it is no different than those who claim the opposite.

 

But did I say that the Torah actually MENTIONS eugenics.

 

NO

[Guest nat]

Whoever is putting that picture by me is crossing a line.

 

OK so you want me to leave.

 

Take comfort in your little cave.

 

You could not win on the arguments so you resort to that.

 

SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest nat]

 

 

 

In my experience the best way to save face is to fully admit to being wrong as soon as you realize you are wrong and take full responsibility for your errors.  Most people respect such actions.

 

Read your own words big guy.

 

You said that I said the Torah MENTIONS eugenics and I never did. And you have not yet posted that I said that it MENTIONS eugenics.

 

Say one thing and do another. Typical.

 

 

We have been over this.  I provided the post numbers and page numbers.  Your response was to talk about kissing my ass.  Remember?  I didn't care for that kind of talk so you did it a lot more.  When you don't like the facts you change the subject.

 

 

One more time:

Page 37 post 739 nat says:

 

 

Bhim,

 

Whether or not there are Torah verses you or anyone else finds objectionable, that particular verse is as clear as you can get in disapproving of eugenics.

 

Think about it. You love this wife. She is pretty and talented, has all the good breeding traits. Then there is this other wife. You can't stand her. She has everything you want to get away from. What does eugenics say? It says to engineer the good breed. Make him special and carry on his traits. What does the Torah say?

 

It says no!

 

Clear as day. Straight from the Torah.

 

 

Page 36 post 715 nat said

"Mainstream scientists got it wrong with Eugenics and my religion always had it right that eugenics is wrong." 

 

Later nat changed the wording removing the word "always" so he could paint me as a bad guy

 

Page 36 post 717 is a quote of nat that preserves his original words.

 

 

Page 37 post 728 nat states:

 

Deuteronomy 21:16

 

When he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.

 

Eugenics is the exact opposite. Pick the better breed. pick the son of the wife you love because she is prettier, more talented etc.

 

No. The Torah says you don't do that.

 

OK?

 

 

So who was the one making claims about what the Torah says?  That was nat.  Who made claims that this was strait from the Torah?  That was nat.  Who made claims that Judaism has always had it right that eugenics was wrong?  That was nat.

 

But I did not say that the Torah MENTIONS eugenics.

 

You are the IDIOT who can't tell the difference.

 

Do you not know of all the articles that claim the Torah supports eugenics?

 

I was saying the opposite.

 

But I did not say that the Torah actually MENTIONS eugenics.

 

Go have your head examined.

[Guest nat]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke

Irish orator, philosopher, & politician (1729 - 1797)

[Guest nat]

MM,

 

If you want to argue on someone based on your original argument concerning eugenics and the Torah, argue on the below from a Jew Hate Blog

 

HE is the one that says that even the ancient Jews had the actual science of eugenics. I never said close to that. (By the way, Jews are not a race, they are a religion.)

 

Argue on him, not on me. 

 

“The Jews, ancient and modern,” says Dr. Stanton Coit, “have always understood the science of eugenics, and have governed themselves in accordance with it; hence the preservation of the Jewish race.”1

[Guest nat]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Irish orator, philosopher, & politician (1729 - 1797)

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[Guest nat]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Irish orator, philosopher, & politician (1729 - 1797)

[Guest nat]

MM

 

I completely ripped you to shreds.

 

1) You claim I say the Torah mentions eugenics and I never said those words, only something which in your twisted mind is similar. 

 

2) You lecture me on your great experience with admitting the truth, and you can't admit when you are wrong.

 

3) You challenge me to bring a verse from the Torah and then criticize me for bringing a verse from the Torah (which you feel is a bigoted book).

 

4) You challenge me to bring a verse from the Torah which you think I can't and expect me to bow down to your great intelligence and agree with you.

 

5) You want to know why there are so many pages when it took countless pages until you finally saw my logic.

 

You contradict yourself at every turn.

 

Yet, Mr. Moderator genius can't take that I can rip you apart, so he puts a picture to intimidate me.

[mymistake]

MM

 

imbecile

 

Do you not know that a numbers of articles were written that claim that the Torah supports eugenics.

 

I was not aware.  However I don't plan to commit this to memory either.  It doesn't strike me as important information.

 

 

 

 

You could have made that claim, and at one point it seems like you did. 

 

No, it does not.  I said the Torah supports racism but that it is impossible for the Torah to support eugenics.

 

 

 

In any case, your original argument that you can't infer anything from the Torah about eugenics is completely fallacious.

 

Did the 20th century BCE happened before the 5th century BC?  I think it's the other way around.  Anyway what fallacy or fallacies did I use?

 

 

 

So when I say the Torah is against eugenics it is no different than those who claim the opposite.

 

But did I say that the Torah actually MENTIONS eugenics.

 

NO

 

You did post message 715, 728 and 739 so there is nothing wrong with me responding to your words.

 

(Edit - oops not 717, I read the list wrong)

 

 

[florduh]

I can rip you apart

 

 

 

Feisty little guy, aren't you? I would be honored if you would call me an A-- H----. Obviously you're ripping nobody apart. I'm just having a little fun with a pointless thread that's gone on way too long.

[mymistake]

 

 

You claim I say the Torah mentions eugenics and I never said those words, only something which in your twisted mind is similar. 

 

 

 

So

 

 

What does eugenics say? It says to engineer the good breed. Make him special and carry on his traits. What does the Torah say?

 

It says no!

 

Clear as day. Straight from the Torah.

 

does not imply the Torah mentions eugenics?

 

and 

 

 

Eugenics is the exact opposite. Pick the better breed. pick the son of the wife you love because she is prettier, more talented etc.

 

No. The Torah says you don't do that.

 

also does not imply that the Torah mentions eugenics?

 

And I'm the one who can't admit he was wrong because I used the word "mention" regarding your words above?

[Guest nat]

 

MM

 

imbecile

 

Do you not know that a numbers of articles were written that claim that the Torah supports eugenics.

 

I was not aware.  However I don't plan to commit this to memory either.  It doesn't strike me as important information.

 

 

 

 

You could have made that claim, and at one point it seems like you did. 

 

No, it does not.  I said the Torah supports racism but that it is impossible for the Torah to support eugenics.

 

 

 

In any case, your original argument that you can't infer anything from the Torah about eugenics is completely fallacious.

 

Did the 20th century BCE happened before the 5th century BC?  I think it's the other way around.  Anyway what fallacy or fallacies did I use?

 

 

 

So when I say the Torah is against eugenics it is no different than those who claim the opposite.

 

But did I say that the Torah actually MENTIONS eugenics.

 

NO

 

You did post message 715, 728 and 739 so there is nothing wrong with me responding to your words.

 

(Edit - oops not 717, I read the list wrong)

 

 

 

We can have a valid debate whether or not one can glean modern positions from ancient texts. But to say that I said the Torah mentions eugenics was a lie.

 

You just cant tell the difference between what I said and what you think I said.

[mymistake]

Okay explain this to me:

 

How can 

 

What does eugenics say? It says to engineer the good breed. Make him special and carry on his traits. What does the Torah say?

 

It says no!

 

Clear as day. Straight from the Torah.

 

Not imply that the Torah mentions eugenics?

 

How can

 

Eugenics is the exact opposite. Pick the better breed. pick the son of the wife you love because she is prettier, more talented etc.

 

No. The Torah says you don't do that.

 

also not imply the Torah mentions eugenics?

 

And if the Torah doesn't mention eugenics then how can you come up with the Torah's position on eugenics without making it up?  Remember that there are two ways to mention something.  It can be mentioned by name or by description.  If the Torah mentions eugenics then why do you make all these personal attacks against me?  If the Torah doesn't mention eugenics then why did you try to use this as the Jewish moral victory over science?

 

I believe you have painted yourself into a corner.

[Guest nat]

 

 

 

You claim I say the Torah mentions eugenics and I never said those words, only something which in your twisted mind is similar. 

 

 

 

So

 

 

What does eugenics say? It says to engineer the good breed. Make him special and carry on his traits. What does the Torah say?

 

It says no!

 

Clear as day. Straight from the Torah.

 

does not imply the Torah mentions eugenics?

 

and 

 

 

Eugenics is the exact opposite. Pick the better breed. pick the son of the wife you love because she is prettier, more talented etc.

 

No. The Torah says you don't do that.

 

also does not imply that the Torah mentions eugenics?

 

And I'm the one who can't admit he was wrong because I used the word "mention" regarding your words above?

 

OH smart guy.

 

First you say that I said the Torah mentions eugenics. BUT NOW you say that I implied it. Why didn't you admit the whole time that you felt I implied it but didn't actually say it. Then we can debate if your implication was correct.

 

It is not right to say that I said it because then I can't argue with your implication.  So again you just want me to bow down and agree with you.

 

So again you completely FAIL.

 

And no I don't agree to your implication.

[mymistake]

 

Why didn't you admit the whole time that you felt I implied it but didn't actually say it.

 

Because it is a real pain in the neck to search through hundreds of posts to catch you in your lies.  I can do it.  I have done it but there is no pay off for me because you just go on with your routine as if nothing happened.  Going back and looking it up is a waste of my time.

[Guest nat]

No corner big guy. 

 

Your question:

 

If the Torah doesn't mention eugenics then why did you try to use this as the Jewish moral victory over science?

 

The answer is because I (and millions of others) feel you can derive modern applications from the Torah. 

 

And i am not the only one who thinks so about eugenics. Go read on the history of eugenics. The religious approach was actually a mixed bag. The liberal christians (and Rabbis as well) argued that the bible/Torah supported eugenics. The Catholics and conservative protestant Christians argued the opposite. They said the bible teachings do not support eugenics. There is actually a whole book on it. Remember that I clearly stated that am an Orthodox Jew. I mentioned that my religion was always against it. 

[Guest nat]

 

 

Why didn't you admit the whole time that you felt I implied it but didn't actually say it.

 

Because it is a real pain in the neck to search through hundreds of posts to catch you in your lies.  I can do it.  I have done it but there is no pay off for me because you just go on with your routine as if nothing happened.  Going back and looking it up is a waste of my time.

 

Typical of something someone would say when they get caught and can't admit. I had to dig for your posts. You can dig for mine. You can use the search bar. Put in the word mention and see what comes up.

[mymistake]

No corner big guy. 

 

Your question:

 

If the Torah doesn't mention eugenics then why did you try to use this as the Jewish moral victory over science?

 

The answer is because I (and millions of others) feel you can derive modern applications from the Torah. 

 

And i am not the only one who thinks so about eugenics. Go read on the history of eugenics. The religious approach was actually a mixed bag. The liberal christians (and Rabbis as well) argued that the bible/Torah supported eugenics. The Catholics and conservative protestant Christians argued the opposite. They said the bible teachings do not support eugenics. There is actually a whole book on it. Remember that I clearly stated that am an Orthodox Jew. I mentioned that my religion was always against it. 

 

You did not write that "we can derive modern applications from the Torah".

 

You wrote "What does the Torah say?  It says . . ."

 

You wrote "Clear as day. Straight from the Torah."

 

You wrote "Eugenics is the exact opposite. Pick the better breed. pick the son of the wife you love because she is prettier, more talented etc.  No. The Torah says you don't do that."

 

Now can you explain how this doesn't imply that the Torah mentions eugenics?  You said that this is only similar in my twisted mind so lay it all out for everyone else to read.  How does what you wrote not imply that the Torah mentions eugenics though description?

 

 

 

"Mainstream scientists got it wrong with Eugenics and my religion always had it right that eugenics is wrong." -  nat   May 7th, 2013 - 9:07 PM in post 715 on page 36 of the Mathematical Proof Of God thread (Before he changed it to remove the word "always")

[Guest nat]

 

No corner big guy. 

 

Your question:

 

If the Torah doesn't mention eugenics then why did you try to use this as the Jewish moral victory over science?

 

The answer is because I (and millions of others) feel you can derive modern applications from the Torah. 

 

And i am not the only one who thinks so about eugenics. Go read on the history of eugenics. The religious approach was actually a mixed bag. The liberal christians (and Rabbis as well) argued that the bible/Torah supported eugenics. The Catholics and conservative protestant Christians argued the opposite. They said the bible teachings do not support eugenics. There is actually a whole book on it. Remember that I clearly stated that am an Orthodox Jew. I mentioned that my religion was always against it. 

 

You did not write that "we can derive modern applications from the Torah".

 

You wrote "What does the Torah say?  It says . . ."

 

You wrote "Clear as day. Straight from the Torah."

 

You wrote "Eugenics is the exact opposite. Pick the better breed. pick the son of the wife you love because she is prettier, more talented etc.  No. The Torah says you don't do that."

 

Now can you explain how this doesn't imply that the Torah mentions eugenics?  You said that this is only similar in my twisted mind so lay it all out for everyone else to read.  How does what you wrote not imply that the Torah mentions eugenics though description?

 

 

 

"Mainstream scientists got it wrong with Eugenics and my religion always had it right that eugenics is wrong." -  nat   May 7th, 2013 - 9:07 PM in post 715 on page 36 of the Mathematical Proof Of God thread (Before he changed it to remove the word "always")

 

I did say in many other posts how we derive modern applications from the Torah. Do you want me to dig it up?

 

And again you are making an implication. You need to say that I implied it or else I can't defend myself. It is completely unfair to say that I said it, because then I can't defend myself.

 

I said that it is clear as day straight from the Torah that eugenics is wrong. You already asked me how I can make that assessment, and I answered you and posted a number of times before how we make modern applications from the Torah.

 

I said the Torah says you don't do that. You don't pick the better breed. Read the sentence. 

[mymistake]

This is absurd.  You would have us to believe that "say" and "mention" mean very different things.  I'm the bad guy for using the word "mention" when the word "say" was appropriate.  I've gone back several times now and quoted your posts that use the word "say".

 

Lay it out for us nat.  Explain how the word "say" does not mean "mention".  

 

 

 

 

Nevermind.  You are going into my ignore filter where you belong.

[Guest nat]

By the way, I can admit. Had you said i implied it, it would not have been so bad. I went to far with the twisted mind comment. I am sorry for that one.

[Guest nat]

For believers, the Torah speaks to us in modern times by the use of modern applications. That is how the Torah Tells us that eugenics is wrong, even though it doesn't mention it directly. It is the same as saying what is the Torah's opinion on eugenics based on what we can apply from it. In other words, what does the Torah say to us now about it. Perhaps this is the way Orthodox Jews speak and you were not used to it. I am not sure if christians speak this way, but they probably do.

 

Aside from that, if you read it carefully the implication is more that what does the Torah say about breeding such that we can ascertain its position on eugenics.

 

In any case, I did not ever say that the Torah actually mentions modern eugenics. That would have been silly.

 

You should have said I implied it and then I would have explained the way orthodox Jews (and likely other believers) relate to the Torah, which we see as an eternal guide.

 

Again, had you said I implied it, we could have had a decent conversation about it. 

 

And again, I went overboard with the twisted mind comment.

[Guest nat]

To understand the idiomatic use of what does the Torah say about something modern see this:

 

What does the Torah say about ObamaCare (note, I do not necessarily agree with his opinions)

 

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1914545/jewish/What-Does-the-Torah-Say-About-Obamacare.htm

 

 

The bigger point of all this is that when the intent of debates is to knock somebody, all you get is nitpicking and stupid he said she said arguments. None of this would happen if there was a semblance of respect. if there was respect the main consideration would not be a nitpick of the specific word used or the idiom, but the intent.

 

I said many times that Orthodox Jews apply the teaching of the Torah to decide modern day issues. I brought the example of us not turning on a light bulb on the Sabbath. Saying that I said the Torah mentions (modern) eugenics leaves no room for idiom or manner of speach. It was just a cheap trick to ridicule me.

[Guest nat]

I see that Non Jews also use this kind of idiomatic speach, so it was a cheap trick to say that I said the Torah actually mentions eugenics

 

see here

  What Does the Bible Say About Psychiatric Medications?

 

http://bipolar.about.com/b/2012/03/30/what-does-the-bible-say-about-psychiatric-medications.htm

[Guest nat]

Seems to me that this is a common idiom.  So I was right that it was a cheap trick to say that I said the Torah actually mentions it.

 

See below (I don't necessarily agree with the views of these posts, I am just showing the idiomatic use of the term what the the Torah/bible say about...)

  What the Bible Says About Organ Transplants

Bobby A. Howard, RN, BSN, MDiv

Journal of Christian Nursing, Vol. 15, No. 4; Permission granted by JCN

 

 

 

 

http://www.christianliferesources.com/article/what-the-bible-says-about-organ-transplants-417