Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just clarify for me what deed of Abraham was good and what deed of Jephthah was bad? In both cases they do what the lord asks of them in one case the lord steps in and the other case he doesn't what did jephtah do that was different? Yes I get that this was about infinity but I think we can all agree that the horse is dead and it has been beaten enough perhaps time to start a new thread? Jephthah was not asked by god to do what he did. He did a bad thing. God did not condone it. God does not intervene with Bad. You should also read up more on the incident. Many claim he set her aside to live in solitude and never get married. Still bad (in my oppinion), but just don't automatically assume it was an actual sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 You guys just can't understand the Torah because your eyes are closed to spiritual matters and you don't have the Holy Spirit guiding you to the correct interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The bigger point is that God told Abraham not to sacrifice his son. Genesis 22:2 reads: Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.” You're worshipping a monster, Nat. It is never okay to order someone to kill their child. I think we call this coercion nowadays. And conspiracy to commit homicide. What God did to Abraham would be illegal. God would go to prison if he did that today. Why is it humans know better about right and wrong than biblegod? Who would worship a dick like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just clarify for me what deed of Abraham was good and what deed of Jephthah was bad? In both cases they do what the lord asks of them in one case the lord steps in and the other case he doesn't what did jephtah do that was different? Yes I get that this was about infinity but I think we can all agree that the horse is dead and it has been beaten enough perhaps time to start a new thread? Jephthah was not asked by god to do what he did. He did a bad thing. God did not condone it. God does not intervene with Bad. You should also read up more on the incident. Many claim he set her aside to live in solitude and never get married. Still bad (in my oppinion), but just don't automatically assume it was an actual sacrifice. Hmm... So... Jephtah offers the first thing out of his door as a burnt offering, bewails the fact that that thing was his only child, and nowhere does it say he didn't offer her as a burnt offering. And this isn't the proper conclusion? Btw, "just don't automatically assume...." and so forth, only proves that you can't say she didn't burn. What are we supposed to be reading up on? Some rabbi's opinion on what happened? Some extra-biblical treatise on how what the bible says and what it means are different things? And do you realize how silly "God doesn't intervene with bad" sounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 When god asks you to do something , it is good. You just can't relate to it, because you are not in that framework. You clearly either lied or were ignorant before. You said in both cases they did what the lord asked of them. The lord never asked Jephthah to do anything remotely of what he did. God did ask Abraham to do an action which he perceived as a command to sacrifice his son. No connection between the two. After, I answer you, you change the goal post. Very typical. Our actions are very valuable in relationship to this world. They are worthless in comparison to the eternal world. Yet, it is only upon our earthly actions done even though we suffer for it, that we can have glory in a gift we don't deserve. Again, two completely different frameworks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraBardus Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 GASP!! It's over ONE THOUSAND!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Secondly the fact that God ordered the Israelites to commit genocide the Israelites are performing human sacrifice to YWH anyways. Excellent point. Religiously-driven genocide is a de facto mass human sacrifice. Any god that would command such a thing of its followers is evil... Or is simply a mask of false righteousness worn by the leaders of the attacking tribe in an attempt to excuse the inexcusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just clarify for me what deed of Abraham was good and what deed of Jephthah was bad? In both cases they do what the lord asks of them in one case the lord steps in and the other case he doesn't what did jephtah do that was different? Yes I get that this was about infinity but I think we can all agree that the horse is dead and it has been beaten enough perhaps time to start a new thread? Jephthah was not asked by god to do what he did. He did a bad thing. God did not condone it. God does not intervene with Bad. You should also read up more on the incident. Many claim he set her aside to live in solitude and never get married. Still bad (in my oppinion), but just don't automatically assume it was an actual sacrifice. Hmm... So... Jephtah offers the first thing out of his door as a burnt offering, bewails the fact that that thing was his only child, and nowhere does it say he didn't offer her as a burnt offering. And this isn't the proper conclusion? Btw, "just don't automatically assume...." and so forth, only proves that you can't say she didn't burn. What are we supposed to be reading up on? Some rabbi's opinion on what happened? Some extra-biblical treatise on how what the bible says and what it means are different things? And do you realize how silly "God doesn't intervene with bad" sounds? There are two opinions on the matter of what Jephtah did. You have to read up on it. I am not going to teach it to you. Either way it was bad, and either way God most often does not intervene with human bad choices, but he does punish it, either in this world or the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Listen, I am done here. It wasn't my intention to debate and defend every claim of religious so called evil. It is in fact a most worthless cause in this forum. Go on thinking it all evil. fine with me. Or read more and see other alternatives. I don't care what you do. But don't think for one second that I agree with you. I don't. This thread has ended. Please don't bate me by either ridicule or challenges. Let us end this please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 When god asks you to do something , it is good. You just can't relate to it, because you are not in that framework. And you know this... How, exactly? For all you really know about Me, Nat, I might be living that framework with My every breath, and be possessed of a level of moral understanding that you can only dream of. You also can't define a god of questionable behaviour into goodness. The problem with the god of the Bible starts at Genesis and runs through most of the OT and into the NT as well. Oh, and I am of the opinion that "the eternal world" is 100% mythical and can safely be ignored for the purpose of this argument. There is no "gift." There is no afterlife reward and there is no afterlife punishment. Sometimes evil is punished on Earth, and sometimes the evildoer escapes unscathed. C'est la vie. ETA: Goodbye, Nat. I hope that your world someday becomes less worthless and less infested by divine phantoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I never said that God asked Jephtah to do anything. But since you bring it up, Jephtah did dangle the carrot of a burnt offering in exchange for his victory. That he received said victory could be taken as tacit approval to offer sacrifice. In any case, What I DID say was that Jephtah offered the sacrifice, and was not stopped from delivering it by god, thus the tacit acceptance thereof. Furthermore, this grasping notion that god does not intervene in such things flies right in the face of literally the first few chapters of Genesis, to say nothing of following books. If offering a child sacrifice is, as you say, a detestable thing, then god should have at least told Jephtah that it was not to be done. Not only does he not intervene, he does not appear to disapprove of it thereafter. And why should he? He is the almighty, and he let it happen. What can we say for someone with the power to stop something, and allows it to happen, other than that he approves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The bigger point is that God told Abraham not to sacrifice his son. Genesis 22:2 reads: Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.” You're worshipping a monster, Nat. It is never okay to order someone to kill their child. You don't understand moral relativism. If you are getting the information of the act from the bible then you are in his framework of God telling or indicating to him to do it. Now go and judge it. It is not the same as someone outside the framework relating to it. Abraham was also not completely perfect and he should have understood that it was enough for him to sacrifice his self worth without sacrificing Isaac. The Talmud understands the exact hebrew wording God used indicates that God in the ultimate sense wanted Abraham to bring his son up and take him down. It turns out that all of Abraham's self worth went out the window only because he was about to sacrifice his son. That is the way he did it. Not the ultimate way he was supposed to do it. So he does get some embarrassment from it, yes. Once he gave up his self worth and merit, he could see that God's gifts are not attained that way. Christians are big on this idea of salvation through grace, but Judaism has a different take on it. Grace is like charity, not glorious at all. God's gifts are glorious grace. For glorious grace, we need to do actions and yet suffer while the evil prosper in this world. When we do something in contrast to exact justice, we can be glorified in a gift that we don't deserve. In any case, in the end he was ordered not to do it. Let's call this bible story one of the Righteous Atrocities of God. So God deceived Abraham. How is God different from Satan? I'd slap God with a $10 million lawsuit for pain and suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just clarify for me what deed of Abraham was good and what deed of Jephthah was bad? In both cases they do what the lord asks of them in one case the lord steps in and the other case he doesn't what did jephtah do that was different? Yes I get that this was about infinity but I think we can all agree that the horse is dead and it has been beaten enough perhaps time to start a new thread? Jephthah was not asked by god to do what he did. He did a bad thing. God did not condone it. God does not intervene with Bad. You should also read up more on the incident. Many claim he set her aside to live in solitude and never get married. Still bad (in my oppinion), but just don't automatically assume it was an actual sacrifice. Hmm... So... Jephtah offers the first thing out of his door as a burnt offering, bewails the fact that that thing was his only child, and nowhere does it say he didn't offer her as a burnt offering. And this isn't the proper conclusion? Btw, "just don't automatically assume...." and so forth, only proves that you can't say she didn't burn. What are we supposed to be reading up on? Some rabbi's opinion on what happened? Some extra-biblical treatise on how what the bible says and what it means are different things? And do you realize how silly "God doesn't intervene with bad" sounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Yeah... You want me to read someone's opinion about something, when (for once) the bible is fairly unambiguous about it. Statements like that, and "God doesn't intervene with bad", bespeak an inability to offer true answers, and rather than stand and face that fact, you want to act all offended, like we did something wrong. That's fine, but seriously, you don't go around with a pocket full of hot air to defend your beliefs to a group that disagrees, and expect anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I never said that God asked Jephtah to do anything. But since you bring it up, Jephtah did dangle the carrot of a burnt offering in exchange for his victory. That he received said victory could be taken as tacit approval to offer sacrifice. In any case, What I DID say was that Jephtah offered the sacrifice, and was not stopped from delivering it by god, thus the tacit acceptance thereof. Furthermore, this grasping notion that god does not intervene in such things flies right in the face of literally the first few chapters of Genesis, to say nothing of following books. If offering a child sacrifice is, as you say, a detestable thing, then god should have at least told Jephtah that it was not to be done. Not only does he not intervene, he does not appear to disapprove of it thereafter. And why should he? He is the almighty, and he let it happen. What can we say for someone with the power to stop something, and allows it to happen, other than that he approves? I am sorry, I confused you with the other person talking about Jephtah. i did not realize there were two people discussing it. By and large, God does not intervene with bad choices (even when there is good intention of some sort). Did god stop Kain from killing Able? I think not. Did god stop Adam and Eve from eating the fruit? I think not. Come on guys, get with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 You guys just can't understand the Torah because your eyes are closed to spiritual matters and you don't have the Holy Spirit guiding you to the correct interpretation. I didn't think the Jews had a Holy Spirit. :-) But Nat does sound just like a fundy Christian, doesnt he. Sounds exactly like Thumbelina. If you aren't defending Yahweh then you ain't reading the Torah correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Yeah... You want me to read someone's opinion about something, when (for once) the bible is fairly unambiguous about it. Statements like that, and "God doesn't intervene with bad", bespeak an inability to offer true answers, and rather than stand and face that fact, you want to act all offended, like we did something wrong. That's fine, but seriously, you don't go around with a pocket full of hot air to defend your beliefs to a group that disagrees, and expect anything else. You don't like that God does not intervene with bad choices, but we live with that reality every day. I don't care if you read up more on Jephthah. If you want to you can. To me either way was bad so it makes little difference. Again, this is not the right forum to debate the evil or non evil of the bible. I had no intention of going there. I am not offended. It is pointless for me to defend these things because it is not the right place for it. I don't want to offend or change your beliefs. I just got baited into defending my own. Please don't continue in this direction. I have no interest in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraBardus Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just clarify for me what deed of Abraham was good and what deed of Jephthah was bad? In both cases they do what the lord asks of them in one case the lord steps in and the other case he doesn't what did jephtah do that was different? Yes I get that this was about infinity but I think we can all agree that the horse is dead and it has been beaten enough perhaps time to start a new thread? Jephthah was not asked by god to do what he did. He did a bad thing. God did not condone it. God does not intervene with Bad. You should also read up more on the incident. Many claim he set her aside to live in solitude and never get married. Still bad (in my oppinion), but just don't automatically assume it was an actual sacrifice. Hmm... So... Jephtah offers the first thing out of his door as a burnt offering, bewails the fact that that thing was his only child, and nowhere does it say he didn't offer her as a burnt offering. And this isn't the proper conclusion? Btw, "just don't automatically assume...." and so forth, only proves that you can't say she didn't burn. What are we supposed to be reading up on? Some rabbi's opinion on what happened? Some extra-biblical treatise on how what the bible says and what it means are different things? And do you realize how silly "God doesn't intervene with bad" sounds? There are two opinions on the matter of what Jephtah did. You have to read up on it. I am not going to teach it to you. Either way it was bad, and either way God most often does not intervene with human bad choices, but he does punish it, either in this world or the next. Well, you believe he does, but there is no Hell in the Torah. Your beliefs are not backed by your own faith. Sure, there's Sheol, but there is no attachment of punishment or reward to it. It's simply where the dead descend. Some Jews do believe in the concept of heaven and hell, but there is no consensus on the subject within Judaism. There is no consensus on the concept of judgement. It is yet another assumption on your part, though a more theistic one. A lot of Jews would say you are dead wrong. Your personal beliefs might be different, but there's no precedent in Jewish faith for the concept of punishment or reward in the afterlife. Judaism is surprisingly vague on the subject and really doesn't get into the afterlife at all. Even the Christian Bible doesn't really support the idea of Heaven and Hell as they exist in modern Christian theism today. [A reference to a garbage dump and nothing more.] Even assuming there is truth to the concept of Heaven and Hell, the punishment does not fit the crime in how the place is traditionally seen. There is no justice in an eternity of suffering for even a lifetime of evil. A God who would do such a thing to even the most evil of humans is not just or merciful. Just a monster, a huge boogie man and not worthy of worship. Though, the reality is the Torah really doesn't suggest that God really punishes evil in the afterlife at all. Everyone just goes to Sheol, and there isn't much insight to what exactly Sheol is. There are references to Olam Ha-Ba or Gan Eden in the Talmud and Kabbalah, but they are vague and unclear. A garden of Eden for souls to reside in, and it may not exist until after the resurrection once the Messiah prophecy comes to pass. [Christians believe this has already happened.] However, there is no really clear definition or consensus of what the place is, whether it actually exists at all, or that there is a relation to punishment or reward to it. It's possible that it's where 'good souls' go, but it's also possible that all the souls of Sheol will pass to that place once the prophecy comes to pass. It's never really explained and little more than wild guesses that vary differently among Jews about what it means exactly. It's just a theological mess, and even a lot of Jews don't believe there is any such thing as Olam Ha-Ba or Gan Eden, some believe that they will exist, but only after the Messiah returns, and some believe they never will exist, others think that it's a real [sort of] existing place now. You believe it, but that doesn't mean that it's true. There are a lot of other Jews who would disagree with you. We of course believe it to all be a crock to begin with. It doesn't help matters that there's no real definition even amongst those of your own faith as to what exactly happens in the afterlife. Assert all you want, but even amongst those of the Jewish faith, it's simply speculation. There is no evidence that God punishes evil in this world, or the afterlife. Many [maybe even most to some extent or another] Jews assume it, but there's no actual backing for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I never said that God asked Jephtah to do anything. But since you bring it up, Jephtah did dangle the carrot of a burnt offering in exchange for his victory. That he received said victory could be taken as tacit approval to offer sacrifice. In any case, What I DID say was that Jephtah offered the sacrifice, and was not stopped from delivering it by god, thus the tacit acceptance thereof. Furthermore, this grasping notion that god does not intervene in such things flies right in the face of literally the first few chapters of Genesis, to say nothing of following books. If offering a child sacrifice is, as you say, a detestable thing, then god should have at least told Jephtah that it was not to be done. Not only does he not intervene, he does not appear to disapprove of it thereafter. And why should he? He is the almighty, and he let it happen. What can we say for someone with the power to stop something, and allows it to happen, other than that he approves? I am sorry, I confused you with the other person talking about Jephtah. i did not realize there were two people discussing it. By and large, God does not intervene with bad choices (even when there is good intention of some sort). Did god stop Kain from killing Able? I think not. Did god stop Adam and Eve from eating the fruit? I think not. Come on guys, get with it. Did god intervene once the fruit had been eaten? I think so. Did god brand Kain such that he could not escape his guilt in death? I think so. Did god smite Sodom to prevent them from doing more evil? I think so. Did god send the flood to destroy the world to prevent more evil? I think so. Did god afflict the people of the world for creating Babel to stop their attempt to reach him? I think so. Did god strike down the brother of Onan for...whatever he did? I think so. Did he not also strike down Onan for not impregnating his brother's wife? Check. Did god punish Jephtah for his sacrifice? Come on. God intervenes. He didn't in Jephtah's case. He waited two months and said nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 God doesn't intervene with bad? Well then why did Noah have to build a boat? Why did God flood the entire Earth and kill all but two of the cute puppy dogs and all but two of the kittens? It doesn't take long to find other stories in the Torah of God intervening with the bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 You guys just can't understand the Torah because your eyes are closed to spiritual matters and you don't have the Holy Spirit guiding you to the correct interpretation. I didn't think the Jews had a Holy Spirit. :-) But Nat does sound just like a fundy Christian, doesnt he. Sounds exactly like Thumbelina. If you aren't defending Yahweh then you ain't reading the Torah correctly. I was not here to discuss the Torah. You can have your own opinions. Why is my opinion that the bible is good any worse than the opinion around here that it is bad. You have your opinion and I have mine. I am not asking you to change your opinion. Your opinion is up to you. Let's drop this please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Just clarify for me what deed of Abraham was good and what deed of Jephthah was bad? In both cases they do what the lord asks of them in one case the lord steps in and the other case he doesn't what did jephtah do that was different? Yes I get that this was about infinity but I think we can all agree that the horse is dead and it has been beaten enough perhaps time to start a new thread? Jephthah was not asked by god to do what he did. He did a bad thing. God did not condone it. God does not intervene with Bad. You should also read up more on the incident. Many claim he set her aside to live in solitude and never get married. Still bad (in my oppinion), but just don't automatically assume it was an actual sacrifice. Hmm... So... Jephtah offers the first thing out of his door as a burnt offering, bewails the fact that that thing was his only child, and nowhere does it say he didn't offer her as a burnt offering. And this isn't the proper conclusion? Btw, "just don't automatically assume...." and so forth, only proves that you can't say she didn't burn. What are we supposed to be reading up on? Some rabbi's opinion on what happened? Some extra-biblical treatise on how what the bible says and what it means are different things? And do you realize how silly "God doesn't intervene with bad" sounds? There are two opinions on the matter of what Jephtah did. You have to read up on it. I am not going to teach it to you. Either way it was bad, and either way God most often does not intervene with human bad choices, but he does punish it, either in this world or the next. Well, you believe he does, but there is no Hell in the Torah. Your beliefs are not backed by your own faith. Sure, there's Sheol, but there is no attachment of punishment or reward to it. It's simply where the dead descend. Some Jews do believe in the concept of heaven and hell, but there is no consensus on the subject within Judaism. There is no consensus on the concept of judgement. It is yet another assumption on your part, though a more theistic one. A lot of Jews of Your personal beliefs might be different, but there's no precedent in Jewish faith for the concept of punishment or reward in the afterlife. Judaism is surprisingly vague on the subject and really doesn't get into the afterlife at all. Even the Christian Bible doesn't really support the idea of Heaven and Hell as they exist in modern Christian theism today. [A reference to a garbage dump and nothing more.] Even assuming there is truth to the concept of Heaven and Hell, the punishment does not fit the crime in how the place is traditionally seen. There is no justice in an eternity of suffering for even a lifetime of evil. A God who would do such a thing to even the most evil of humans is not just or merciful. Just a monster, a huge boogie man and not worthy of worship. Though, the reality is the Torah really doesn't suggest that God really punishes evil in the afterlife at all. Everyone just goes to Sheol, and there isn't much insight to what exactly Sheol is. There are references to Olam Ha-Ba or Gan Eden in the Talmud and Kabbalah, but they are vague and unclear. A garden of Eden for souls to reside in, and it may not exist until after the resurrection once the Messiah prophecy comes to pass. [Christians believe this has already happened.] However, there is no really clear definition of what the place is, whether it actually exists at all, or that there is a relation to punishment or reward to it. It's possible that it's where 'good souls' go, but it's also possible that all the souls of Sheol will pass to that place once the prophecy comes to pass. It's never really explained and little more than wild guesses that vary differently among Jews about what it means exactly. There's no consensus at all, it's just a theological mess. You believe it, but that doesn't mean that it's true. There are a lot of other Jews who would disagree with you. We of course believe it to all be a crock to begin with. It doesn't help matters that there's no real definition even amongst those of your own faith as to what exactly happens in the afterlife. Assert all you want, but even amongst those of the Jewish faith, it's simply speculation. I am not asserting any of this. I have no interest to discuss or debate it. you are wrong though. The afterlife is very clearly discussed in the Talmud. Orthodox jews have very definite opinions about it. And for the most part, it is not the christian eternal hell. In any case, I have no interest in discussing or debating it. this is not the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Drop it? Why? You are under no obligation to continue here, of course, but if we still have things to discuss we'll just keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Drop it? Why? You are under no obligation to continue here, of course, but if we still have things to discuss we'll just keep going. Why can't you start a new thread? The point of this thread is over. Most often, the comments are either directed to me or involve what i said. I had enough. I had no intention of getting into any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nat Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Listen guys. This has come to an end. The point of the thread has completely finished. I am done. If you have to continue go ahead, but please don't involve me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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