Proof... Ha, What A Crock

[willybilly30]

well what do i do? i got the god gene how do i remove it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i dont want to be an athiest tho isnt their any other alternative?

 

Where is there any requirement that you have to be an atheist, willy? You take things way too personally.

 

If thinking what is logical, reasonable and evidential leads you to be an atheist then you'll just have to accept it.

[Asimov]

well what do i do? i got the god gene how do i remove it?

 

You learn, willy...that's all I can say. Spend some time on here, grow a thicker skin and get ready to learn.

[willybilly30]

if theirs no god no afterlife whats the point in anything who cares about learning if youll just die and loose it. the thought makes everything so meaningless so pointless so hopeless. if everything i ever beleived or known so far is a lie how do i trust anything else ever again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

well what do i do? i got the god gene how do i remove it?

 

You learn, willy...that's all I can say. Spend some time on here, grow a thicker skin and get ready to learn.

[Asimov]

if theirs no god no afterlife whats the point in anything who cares about learning if youll just die and loose it. the thought makes everything so meaningless so pointless so hopeless. if everything i ever beleived or known so far is a lie how do i trust anything else ever again.

 

Ultimately you make your own ideas as to what's meaningful, willy. If there is an afterlife what is the point of doing anything, since you're gonna live forever you have an eternity to do whatever you want, so why learn anything?

 

The thought of living forever makes everything so meaningless, so pointless.

[willybilly30]

if the thought of no god no afterlife and athiesm makes you happy thats great. but when i think about it i become miserable and paranoid im afraid if i even tried to believe that id go insane and be commited to a rubber room. sorry if it makes me look weak or need johnsons baby shampoo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if theirs no god no afterlife whats the point in anything who cares about learning if youll just die and loose it. the thought makes everything so meaningless so pointless so hopeless. if everything i ever beleived or known so far is a lie how do i trust anything else ever again.

 

Ultimately you make your own ideas as to what's meaningful, willy. If there is an afterlife what is the point of doing anything, since you're gonna live forever you have an eternity to do whatever you want, so why learn anything?

 

The thought of living forever makes everything so meaningless, so pointless.

[MQTA]

i agree nothing can be proven right or wrong i mean who really knows without a shadow of a doubt we know everything? science and religion both have thousands of theories none of them has really been proven to be a fact how it really is. also this religion bashing and calling people stupid for thinking theirs a god or believing in things has got to stop. cause it runs new people off they dont feel welcome.

this is an exchristian forum not an exreligion forum. adrianna their are open minded people here and im shure youll find some here.

 

Being taught what you 'know' growing up, and learning more about it, even if it seems to be less true as you learn more, is The Process of Elimination. You just get rid of the SHIT once you realize it was shit. You may not know the TRUTH, but you learn more and more what is NOT, or at least more than likely NOT it.

 

Before I learned more about Christianity, it was "ok, maybe, I just don't know about it". Now that I have spent an intense amount of time the last years, I know what doesn't ring true. I still may not know what's Really True, but I have eliminated what's seemingly fantasy and wishful thinking, no matter how many people still want to believe it.

[Asimov]

if the thought of no god no afterlife and athiesm makes you happy thats great. but when i think about it i become miserable and paranoid im afraid if i even tried to believe that id go insane and be commited to a rubber room. sorry if it makes me look weak or need johnsons baby shampoo.

 

You just gotta realise that you create your own meaning in life, willybilly. A God ain't gonna do it for ya.

[MQTA]

if theirs no god no afterlife whats the point in anything who cares about learning if youll just die and loose it. the thought makes everything so meaningless so pointless so hopeless. if everything i ever beleived or known so far is a lie how do i trust anything else ever again.

 

 

 

 

I know what ya mean! Sorry you misread Asimov.. or maybe I do. Maybe his words strike a chord under the surface. But nothing anyone else says, that you may take offense to, is the issue anyway.

 

How can ya trust anything again? Maybe after the initial shock wears off?

 

When I was doing my research last year I was JUST trying to answer some basic questions about the NT, Paul, the Gospels, and that was that. I wasn't looking to disect it like a frog. I had found some good sites that helped me settle some issues, but THEN I found Paul Tobin's site.

 

After reading about Paul and then the Gospels, I read his other pages. Not only did he expose the NT, he exposed the OT, all of Theology, God and EVERYTHING! What's LEFT to believe in any more? NOTHING.

 

Like our Editor... WYSIWYG.

 

What you see is what you get. Everything else we create our own meaning for, and accept that meaning, until something comes along and we realize we misunderstood, or have found a better approach and way of seeing things.

 

Since I found Wayne Dyer's books, life's meaning doesn't matter, whatever comes after doesn't matter. I'm living, I don't want to die, so I gotta be involved with other people, I may as well do it with the least pain possible. Maybe even enjoy NOT having all the attachments to imaginary worries, beings, and other people's wild ideas that skepdic.com blows away.

 

Reality is reality, there's no point to anything, except for your own Interests. Life is NOW, and you can have it peaceful or anxious in most cases, especially when alone.

 

FWIW

 

[BlueGiant]

To the fluff-bunny (yeah, I'm talking to you, kid, the OP). I noticed no rebuttals, just ad-hominems telling me that you have nothing substantial to say and no understanding of anything that can resemble reality. I can't really discuss anything with you as apparently there is no information to discuss (no provable statements would indicate no consistient information between individuals so no useful information can be exchanged).

 

Now if you have anything more substantial to talk about or have a point that is located somewhere other than the back of your head (and if you don't beleive me, feel back there right near where the head meets the neck...) Not all of us here are atheists. And it isn't an anti-christian hatred you're feeling here, it is an anti-idiot hatred. Sorry, but you came in here no better than any of the fundy snipers, and still haven't done anything that indicates that you use your brain any more than they do. Wake up, if you can, you're not there yet, it seems.

 

Willy, not to be harsh, but your friend came on and showed Dumb B[insert gender specific ending here] Syndrome. Well, actually, fluffy bunny syndrome, and in general has conducted themselves poorly, and doesn't seem to understand that. They dseseve what they get. As for your own personal wonderings about deity, I can't help you much there, you'll have to find your own answer. I have something like a god that I believe in, but I also know that it is also neutral (well apathetic may be a better term...), and it took me a while to get at that concept. Are you willing to lose all your beliefs? Are you willing to throw yourself into an existenstal crisis? Are you willing to live with what you find, whatever it may be?

 

In short you have to know yourself first before you can know others.

 

 

And on a final note to the poster...I don't know if you ever noticed this, but Ares is really a pussy when you get down to it...

[willybilly30]

i understand that. i dont believe in christianity i believe in paganism the problem i have is some athiests want to talk like everyone whose in any religion is stupid. everyone has their own belief they think is true and everyone should be in. we need to get rid of that idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Being taught what you 'know' growing up, and learning more about it, even if it seems to be less true as you learn more, is The Process of Elimination. You just get rid of the SHIT once you realize it was shit. You may not know the TRUTH, but you learn more and more what is NOT, or at least more than likely NOT it.

 

Before I learned more about Christianity, it was "ok, maybe, I just don't know about it". Now that I have spent an intense amount of time the last years, I know what doesn't ring true. I still may not know what's Really True, but I have eliminated what's seemingly fantasy and wishful thinking, no matter how many people still want to believe it.

 

 

the thoughts of athiesm and what it means makes me miserable should i live my life in misery just cause some athiests like asimov think their the way the truth and the life?

 

 

 

I know what ya mean! Sorry you misread Asimov.. or maybe I do. Maybe his words strike a chord under the surface. But nothing anyone else says, that you may take offense to, is the issue anyway.

 

How can ya trust anything again? Maybe after the initial shock wears off?

 

When I was doing my research last year I was JUST trying to answer some basic questions about the NT, Paul, the Gospels, and that was that. I wasn't looking to disect it like a frog. I had found some good sites that helped me settle some issues, but THEN I found Paul Tobin's site.

 

After reading about Paul and then the Gospels, I read his other pages. Not only did he expose the NT, he exposed the OT, all of Theology, God and EVERYTHING! What's LEFT to believe in any more? NOTHING.

 

Like our Editor... WYSIWYG.

 

What you see is what you get. Everything else we create our own meaning for, and accept that meaning, until something comes along and we realize we misunderstood, or have found a better approach and way of seeing things.

 

Since I found Wayne Dyer's books, life's meaning doesn't matter, whatever comes after doesn't matter. I'm living, I don't want to die, so I gotta be involved with other people, I may as well do it with the least pain possible. Maybe even enjoy NOT having all the attachments to imaginary worries, beings, and other people's wild ideas that skepdic.com blows away.

 

Reality is reality, there's no point to anything, except for your own Interests. Life is NOW, and you can have it peaceful or anxious in most cases, especially when alone.

 

FWIW

 

[willybilly30]

adriannas problem with this group has nothing to do with christianity she is not a christian.

i tried to point out what the problem is on my first post here but i have failed in doing that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To the fluff-bunny (yeah, I'm talking to you, kid, the OP). I noticed no rebuttals, just ad-hominems telling me that you have nothing substantial to say and no understanding of anything that can resemble reality. I can't really discuss anything with you as apparently there is no information to discuss (no provable statements would indicate no consistient information between individuals so no useful information can be exchanged).

 

Now if you have anything more substantial to talk about or have a point that is located somewhere other than the back of your head (and if you don't beleive me, feel back there right near where the head meets the neck...) Not all of us here are atheists. And it isn't an anti-christian hatred you're feeling here, it is an anti-idiot hatred. Sorry, but you came in here no better than any of the fundy snipers, and still haven't done anything that indicates that you use your brain any more than they do. Wake up, if you can, you're not there yet, it seems.

 

Willy, not to be harsh, but your friend came on and showed Dumb B[insert gender specific ending here] Syndrome. Well, actually, fluffy bunny syndrome, and in general has conducted themselves poorly, and doesn't seem to understand that. They dseseve what they get. As for your own personal wonderings about deity, I can't help you much there, you'll have to find your own answer. I have something like a god that I believe in, but I also know that it is also neutral (well apathetic may be a better term...), and it took me a while to get at that concept. Are you willing to lose all your beliefs? Are you willing to throw yourself into an existenstal crisis? Are you willing to live with what you find, whatever it may be?

 

In short you have to know yourself first before you can know others.

 

 

And on a final note to the poster...I don't know if you ever noticed this, but Ares is really a pussy when you get down to it...

[willybilly30]

ok i got a question for everyone.

PLEASE DO NOT MENTION CHRISTIANITY OR THE BIBLE IN YOUR ANSWER thats not what this is about.

it has nothing whatsoever to do with it forget about it.

 

 

i can understand all the hatred toward christians and christianity i mean thats what this site is for.

but why is their hatred for every religion? why can we all on this forum be open minded and nice to one another. christians are the forums enemie not everyone else.

 

all i am saying is give peace a chance

[Checkmate]

willybilly30, maybe you're being a bit over-sensitive or myopic. I don't see this wide-spread "hatred" for ALL religion on this forum. Not even from ME!

 

Just this morning I recommended that someone try Buddhism to replace Christianity. Does this sound like I "hate ALL religion"?

 

I despise THEISM. Religions that boast ONE "God", and that we ALL MUST serve/worship their ONE "God", or else. THAT is what I hate.

 

If all "Christians" were like Open_Minded, Amanda or diggin, then I'd have nothing to complain about. Unfortunately, we've got these malcontents like Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, George Bush and Jerry Falwell who would love nothing better than to relegate people like me to an internment camp for wicked sinners.

 

 

 

I will now fade into the background and allow you all to continue this alleged discourse on "proving things". (?????????)

[Jose]

I don't get it either, Grinch. I've been following it with some measure of interest, simply because I like to watch Asimov work.

 

I do want to go on record though as saying that anyone who is going to bash people for not being able to speak English should probably not have almost a dozen glaring spelling errors.

 

Hey adriannastargazer?

 

 

dissprove (disprove)

Somethings (Some things)

proove (prove)

english (English)

anybetter (any better)

christians (Christians)

missunderstanding (misunderstanding)

athiests (atheists)

actuall (actual)

anyhing (anything)

afterall (after all)

 

Those are just your spelling errors; your grammar is so atrocious I don't know where to start... well, except to say that if you went to a private school, you should demand all of your tuition money be refunded.

 

Edit - Huzzah! My 500th post is a thinly-veiled sarcastic insult... what are the chances?

[Ssel]

If I didn't know anybetter, I'd say that you are pretty well all still in the mindset of christians, closed minded, and set to the point, no one can say a damn thing to you, with out you missunderstanding everything. So for all you so called athiests... that are still in the christian mind set... please by all means...WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! open those small minds of yours and look around. There has to be one person out there that can actually read my post, and understand it... otherwise I'll have to treat you all like 3 year olds and explain everything to you that way.

Ha ha ha ...

 

 

If I was younger, I think I'd be in love...

 

Amen, princess adriannastargazer

[NotBlinded]

Okay...long post, but I thought I would post Plato's Allegory of the Cave here just for fun!

 

[socrates] And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground cave, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the cave; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.

[Glaucon] I see.

[socrates] And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.

[Glaucon] You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.

[socrates] Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?

[Glaucon] True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?

[socrates] And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?

[Glaucon] Yes, he said.

[socrates] And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?

[Glaucon] Very true.

[socrates] And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?

[Glaucon] No question, he replied.

[socrates] To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.

[Glaucon] That is certain.

[socrates] And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

[Glaucon] Far truer.

[socrates] And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?

[Glaucon] True, he now.

[socrates] And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.

[Glaucon] Not all in a moment, he said.

[socrates] He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?

[Glaucon] Certainly.

[socrates] Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.

[Glaucon] Certainly.

[socrates] He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?

[Glaucon] Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.

[socrates] And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the cave and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?

[Glaucon] Certainly, he would.

[socrates] And if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,

 

Better to be the poor servant of a poor master,

 

and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?

[Glaucon] Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.

[socrates] Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?

[Glaucon] To be sure, he said.

[socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.

[Glaucon] No question, he said.

[socrates] This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.

[Glaucon] I agree, he said, as far as I am able to understand you.

[socrates] Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted.

[Glaucon] Yes, very natural.

[socrates] And is there anything surprising in one who passes from divine contemplations to the evil state of man, misbehaving himself in a ridiculous manner; if, while his eyes are blinking and before he has become accustomed to the surrounding darkness, he is compelled to fight in courts of law, or in other places, about the images or the shadows of images of justice, and is endeavoring to meet the conceptions of those who have never yet seen absolute justice?

[Glaucon] Anything but surprising, he replied.

[socrates] Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter light, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the cave.

[Glaucon] That, he said, is a very just distinction.

[socrates] But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes.

[Glaucon] They undoubtedly say this, he replied.

[socrates] Whereas, our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good.

[Glaucon] Very true.

[socrates] And must there not be some art which will effect conversion in the easiest and quickest manner; not implanting the faculty of sight, for that exists already, but has been turned in the wrong direction, and is looking away from the truth?

[Glaucon] Yes, he said, such an art may be presumed.

[socrates] And whereas the other so-called virtues of the soul seem to be akin to bodily qualities, for even when they are not originally innate they can be implanted later by habit and exercise, the of wisdom more than anything else contains a divine element which always remains, and by this conversion is rendered useful and profitable; or, on the other hand, hurtful and useless. Did you never observe the narrow intelligence flashing from the keen eye of a clever rogue --how eager he is, how clearly his paltry soul sees the way to his end; he is the reverse of blind, but his keen eyesight is forced into the service of evil, and he is mischievous in proportion to his cleverness.

[Glaucon] Very true, he said.

[socrates] But what if there had been a circumcision of such natures in the days of their youth; and they had been severed from those sensual pleasures, such as eating and drinking, which, like leaden weights, were attached to them at their birth, and which drag them down and turn the vision of their souls upon the things that are below --if, I say, they had been released from these impediments and turned in the opposite direction, the very same faculty in them would have seen the truth as keenly as they see what their eyes are turned to now.

[Glaucon] Very likely.

[socrates] Yes, I said; and there is another thing which is likely. or rather a necessary inference from what has preceded, that neither the uneducated and uninformed of the truth, nor yet those who never make an end of their education, will be able ministers of State; not the former, because they have no single aim of duty which is the rule of all their actions, private as well as public; nor the latter, because they will not act at all except upon compulsion, fancying that they are already dwelling apart in the islands of the blest.

[Glaucon] Very true, he replied.

[socrates] Then, I said, the business of us who are the founders of the State will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all-they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good; but when they have ascended and seen enough we must not allow them to do as they do now.

[Glaucon] What do you mean?

[socrates] I mean that they remain in the upper world: but this must not be allowed; they must be made to descend again among the prisoners in the cave, and partake of their labors and honors, whether they are worth having or not.

[Glaucon] But is not this unjust? he said; ought we to give them a worse life, when they might have a better?

[socrates] You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of the legislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State happy above the rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizens together by persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, and therefore benefactors of one another; to this end he created them, not to please themselves, but to be his instruments in binding up the State.

[Glaucon] True, he said, I had forgotten.

[socrates] Observe, Glaucon, that there will be no injustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence of others; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class are not obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for they grow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them. Being self-taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the cave, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State which is also yours will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst.

[Glaucon] Quite true, he replied.

[socrates] And will our pupils, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light?

[Glaucon] Impossible, he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity, and not after the fashion of our present rulers of State.

[socrates] Yes, my friend, I said; and there lies the point. You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life. Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after the' own private advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State.

[Glaucon] Most true, he replied.

[socrates] And the only life which looks down upon the life of political ambition is that of true philosophy. Do you know of any other?

[Glaucon] Indeed, I do not, he said.

[socrates] And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight.

[Glaucon] No question.

[socrates] Who then are those whom we shall compel to be guardians? Surely they will be the men who are wisest about affairs of State, and by whom the State is best administered, and who at the same time have other honors and another and a better life than that of politics?

[Glaucon] They are the men, and I will choose them, he replied.

[socrates] And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced, and how they are to be brought from darkness to light, -- as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods?

[Glaucon] By all means, he replied.

[socrates] The process, I said, is not the turning over of an oyster-shell, but the turning round of a soul passing from a day which is little better than night to the true day of being, that is, the ascent from below, which we affirm to be true philosophy?

[Glaucon] Quite so.

[Asimov]

ok i got a question for everyone.

PLEASE DO NOT MENTION CHRISTIANITY OR THE BIBLE IN YOUR ANSWER thats not what this is about.

it has nothing whatsoever to do with it forget about it.

 

 

i can understand all the hatred toward christians and christianity i mean thats what this site is for.

but why is their hatred for every religion? why can we all on this forum be open minded and nice to one another. christians are the forums enemie not everyone else.

 

all i am saying is give peace a chance

 

I don't hate christians or christianity, willy...I'm not an ex-anything.

[willybilly30]

i guess this is partly my fault we was talking about this forum and religion. and i made the comment alot of people here dont like religion and will wont you to prove your views. she didnt like it and decided to rant about it here. she couldve explained it alittle better i guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

but im not inviting any more people here for you too hurt with your comments

 

Respectfully Willy, did you read your friends post? I've never seen a post from this person and the first thing done is to insult people here? When is the last time you went to a friends house and when invited in...started slamming them and telling them what they've done wrong? It may not bother some people but it does others. I just read it again and found the post offensive to people here. I remember way back when a member did this same thing...they are still here because they learned an immediate lesson; don't dare come to this site and telling everyone what they should/shouldn't do or how to behave.

[Asimov]

If I didn't know anybetter, I'd say that you are pretty well all still in the mindset of christians, closed minded, and set to the point, no one can say a damn thing to you, with out you missunderstanding everything. So for all you so called athiests... that are still in the christian mind set... please by all means...WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! open those small minds of yours and look around. There has to be one person out there that can actually read my post, and understand it... otherwise I'll have to treat you all like 3 year olds and explain everything to you that way.

Ha ha ha ...

 

 

If I was younger, I think I'd be in love...

 

Amen, princess adriannastargazer

 

[willybilly30]

im sorry its just the way asimov words things that makes me fly off the handle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

willybilly30, maybe you're being a bit over-sensitive or myopic. I don't see this wide-spread "hatred" for ALL religion on this forum. Not even from ME!

 

Just this morning I recommended that someone try Buddhism to replace Christianity. Does this sound like I "hate ALL religion"?

 

I despise THEISM. Religions that boast ONE "God", and that we ALL MUST serve/worship their ONE "God", or else. THAT is what I hate.

 

If all "Christians" were like Open_Minded, Amanda or diggin, then I'd have nothing to complain about. Unfortunately, we've got these malcontents like Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, George Bush and Jerry Falwell who would love nothing better than to relegate people like me to an internment camp for wicked sinners.

 

 

 

I will now fade into the background and allow you all to continue this alleged discourse on "proving things". (?????????)

[Ssel]

That is a perfect analogy, NBBTL

 

But emmm.. could you maybe put that in like emm..

 

maybe like 10 lines or less?

 

 

 

[willybilly30]

thats not the point im trying to make.

i am not talking about christianity.

ok lets be specific you want specific ok well be specific.

their i stuck the word pagan in the post below.

why would i care how you feel about christians

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok i got a question for everyone.

PLEASE DO NOT MENTION CHRISTIANITY OR THE BIBLE IN YOUR ANSWER thats not what this is about.

it has nothing whatsoever to do with it forget about it.

 

 

i can understand all the hatred toward christians and christianity i mean thats what this site is for.

but why is their hatred for PAGANS why can we all on this forum be open minded and nice to PAGANS. christians are the forums enemie not everyone else.

 

all i am saying is give peace a chance

 

I don't hate christians or christianity, willy...I'm not an ex-anything.

[NotBlinded]

That is a perfect analogy, NBBTL

 

But emmm.. could you maybe put that in like emm..

 

maybe like 10 lines or less?

 

 

 

If I did, I would be putting my interpretation into it! hehehe

[Asimov]

thats not the point im trying to make.

i am not talking about christianity.

ok lets be specific you want specific ok well be specific.

their i stuck the word pagan in the post below.

why would i care how you feel about christians

 

I don't really hate anyone, willy. I'm contemptuous of willfull ignorance. I pity evagelizing self-righteous assholes. And I'm saddened by close-minded morons who seek to take away freedoms from others.

[willybilly30]

iv never met a pagan like that but i guess their could be.

i just dont think people who believe in the suprenatural are morons you can think that way if you want too i guess.

 

 

 

 

I don't really hate anyone, willy. I'm contemptuous of willfull ignorance. I pity evagelizing self-righteous assholes. And I'm saddened by close-minded morons who seek to take away freedoms from others.