Charismatics: Was I Ever Really Born Again?

[Guest afireinside]

I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved.

 

I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum.

 

Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing.

 

I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper".

 

Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing?

 

From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing.

[mymistake]

That is a rather typical experience.  If you had asked me five years ago I would tell you that of course you are saved.  From the Christian point of view you are saved up until the moment when you stop the lip service.

 

But today I realize that nobody is saved the way Christians mean it.  So you were just as much a Christian as any other Christian but don't kick yourself for not experiencing some spiritual thing when nothing supernatural exists.

 

I spoke in tongues.  It is just baby talk.  It's gibberish.  As a hard atheist I can speak in tongues just as well as I could when I was an on fire believer.  I came from a family that was very mystical with their Christianity (my mother believes she might kill people by forgetting to pray for them) and we gravitated to churches that were like that as well.  So I did delude myself into thinking that I was in touch with spiritual beings.  Believe me you didn't miss anything.  I was a mess.  You don't want to be convinced that there is a demon in your living room and worry about if he can read your mind or implant thoughts into your head.  In my opinion it is all self delusion and if you didn't delude yourself that deeply then good for you.  You have less baggage to deprogram.

[Guest afireinside]

Thanks mymistake.

 

I guess my feelings of inadequacy and being spiritually inferior stems from my aunty and her husband who was radically spiritual and used to talk to God and see angels etc and we're always on about how you had to be "spirit filled". I yearned for that and was reading heaps of books by people who stated that you required certain elements of faith to be truly born again. Watchman Nees books "The Spiritual Man" really messed me up and it made me question EVERYTHING about my faith and I so badly wanted some sort of initiation or evidence that I was in touch with God. It never came

[Guest afireinside]

Thanks mymistake.

 

I guess my feelings of inadequacy and being spiritually inferior stems from my aunty and her husband who was radically spiritual and used to talk to God and see angels etc and we're always on about how you had to be "spirit filled". I yearned for that and was reading heaps of books by people who stated that you required certain elements of faith to be truly born again. Watchman Nees books "The Spiritual Man" really messed me up and it made me question EVERYTHING about my faith and I so badly wanted some sort of initiation or evidence that I was in touch with God. It never came

[mymistake]

Thanks mymistake.

 

I guess my feelings of inadequacy and being spiritually inferior stems from my aunty and her husband who was radically spiritual and used to talk to God and see angels etc and we're always on about how you had to be "spirit filled". I yearned for that and was reading heaps of books by people who stated that you required certain elements of faith to be truly born again. Watchman Nees books "The Spiritual Man" really messed me up and it made me question EVERYTHING about my faith and I so badly wanted some sort of initiation or evidence that I was in touch with God. It never came

 

I was definitely spirit filled in that I was completely convinced that I was experiencing all those things and God was really moving in my life.  It boils down to driving yourself crazy.  Oh yeah, it's so cool to convince yourself that the little voice in your head is God right up to the point when it tells you to do something foolish and you mindlessly obey.  Chaos ensues and you are left wondering how that could have happened.  Of course you can't blame God so you have to keep turing it back to yourself.

 

Ironically I feel that today I am a much better spiritual leader as a hard atheist.  Materialism, positivism and humanism are far more important than any religion.  I never learned how to really forgive until I left Christianity.  And when I was a deeply spiritual Christian I was quite the jerk in any way that the Bible didn't cover.  I let the Bible laws do all my thinking for me.  That is no way to live.  Today if I am kind to somebody it is a personal matter between them and me.  There is no reward, there is no spirit looking down to judge or punish.  If I do good it is only because I want good to happen.

[Guest afireinside]

We'll summed up MM. I also believe now I'm on a better path, sure I'm dealing with a lot of anger and it a bad place as my walls have come crumbling down but at the same time I can say I actually feel genuine. Part of what was nagging at me as a believer was that despite telling myself otherwise? I knew I was a phoney: I loved out of pity, selfishness(rewards) and ulterior motives(drag 'em to church, get 'em saved). The times I spent with the sick or dying we're plagued by fear and pressure to convert/pray/witness, now I enjoy and celebrate people and love them PROPERLY. I see more fruit now that's genuine, not forced, maybe I'm more of a "Christian" now that I don't give a damn. Was the spirit in me? No, spiritual gifts? More like natural/nurtured gifts, love and compassion? got it now I'm not categorising anyone. If there is a Heaven maybe now I'll get there haha

[TheRedneckProfessor]

No, you were definitely a real christian and were really as "saved" as anybody else.  The reason other people got "answers" and you didn't was most likely that other people were willing to deceive themselves more than you were.  Your experience sounds a lot like mine (except yours only lasted 8 years, lucky bastard  ).  I faked it sometimes, and let people believe I was really having experiences with god; but there was always something in the back of my mind that knew it was all BS.  I didn't want to admit to myself that it wasn't real for a long time because my entire world view was built upon the lies and I knew it would be shattered by the truth.  About the only things that I ever experienced that were real about pentecostal christianity were the guilt, fear, shame, and sinfulness.  I can live without them.

[Sophrosyne]

I spoke in tongues.  It is just baby talk.  It's gibberish.  As a hard atheist I can speak in tongues just as well as I could when I was an on fire believer.  I came from a family that was very mystical with their Christianity (my mother believes she might kill people by forgetting to pray for them) and we gravitated to churches that were like that as well.  So I did delude myself into thinking that I was in touch with spiritual beings.  Believe me you didn't miss anything.  I was a mess.  You don't want to be convinced that there is a demon in your living room and worry about if he can read your mind or implant thoughts into your head.  In my opinion it is all self delusion and if you didn't delude yourself that deeply then good for you.  You have less baggage to deprogram.

 

Did you feel moved to speak in tongues or did you just fake it?

 

I've never in my life spoken in tongues, even when I was a christian, my church didn't do that. I was always kind of curious about it, how they do it and what helps them decide what to say.

 

I've had some "christians" tell me they feel wonderful and that they can feel a connection to jesus, they feel even better after than when they do after a normal prayer, etc...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

I spoke in tongues.  It is just baby talk.  It's gibberish.  As a hard atheist I can speak in tongues just as well as I could when I was an on fire believer.  I came from a family that was very mystical with their Christianity (my mother believes she might kill people by forgetting to pray for them) and we gravitated to churches that were like that as well.  So I did delude myself into thinking that I was in touch with spiritual beings.  Believe me you didn't miss anything.  I was a mess.  You don't want to be convinced that there is a demon in your living room and worry about if he can read your mind or implant thoughts into your head.  In my opinion it is all self delusion and if you didn't delude yourself that deeply then good for you.  You have less baggage to deprogram.

 

Did you feel moved to speak in tongues or did you just fake it?

 

I've never in my life spoken in tongues, even when I was a christian, my church didn't do that. I was always kind of curious about it, how they do it and what helps them decide what to say.

 

I've had some "christians" tell me they feel wonderful and that they can feel a connection to jesus, they feel even better after than when they do after a normal prayer, etc...

 

I got "baptized in the holy spirit" when I was around 14, maybe 15.  After that I rarely ever prayed without praying in tongues.  In my opinion, mymistake is right; it's just gibberish.  I would just sort of let my tongue loose and all sorts of syllables would just pour out.  My son, who is five now, does the same thing, but it has nothing to do with the holy spirit; that's just how little kids exercise the muscles associated with speech.

 

I did sometimes feel more in touch with jesus when I spoke in tongues; but now I realize it was all in my head.  Usually, I was just faking it and didn't feel anything.  I was told that praying in tongues was the holy spirit's way of praying through us because he knew better than we did what needed to be prayed for.  Now that I think about it, that is kind of offensive; god basically didn't think my prayers were good enough so he had to pray through me.

[mymistake]

 

I spoke in tongues.  It is just baby talk.  It's gibberish.  As a hard atheist I can speak in tongues just as well as I could when I was an on fire believer.  I came from a family that was very mystical with their Christianity (my mother believes she might kill people by forgetting to pray for them) and we gravitated to churches that were like that as well.  So I did delude myself into thinking that I was in touch with spiritual beings.  Believe me you didn't miss anything.  I was a mess.  You don't want to be convinced that there is a demon in your living room and worry about if he can read your mind or implant thoughts into your head.  In my opinion it is all self delusion and if you didn't delude yourself that deeply then good for you.  You have less baggage to deprogram.

 

Did you feel moved to speak in tongues or did you just fake it?

 

I've never in my life spoken in tongues, even when I was a christian, my church didn't do that. I was always kind of curious about it, how they do it and what helps them decide what to say.

 

I've had some "christians" tell me they feel wonderful and that they can feel a connection to jesus, they feel even better after than when they do after a normal prayer, etc...

 

 

Oh I thought it was a real spiritual language that the Holy Spirit spoke through me.

 

How did I get there?  I first "manifested" this gift while at a summer camp.  It was a mountaintop retreat where the entire staff spoke in gibberish the whole time.  All the preaching was about the Book of Acts and how God wants to bless all of us with the gift of tongues.  After having a whole week to show me how normal it was and it being drilled into my head how much I need to dedicate my life to the Lord I spontaneously started doing it too.  And that little bit of gibberish that first came out of my mouth was reinforced by all the staff who praised God over it.  I mean the couldn't all be deceiving me now, could they?  And then I went strait to six years of private school ran by a denomination that believed talking gibberish was a normal part of worship.

 

So I felt is was appropriate to do this thing when I was interceding for others and requesting something very important.  But it wasn't me doing it because the Holy Spirit is real.  It really helps to complete the delusion if questioning the Holy Spirit's power or gifts might be the unforgivable sin.  We would't want to offend the Holy Spirit now.  So I patched that up with faith and never thought about how silly it was.  Looking back I can still do gibberish just as well but I didn't realize I was faking it until I left Christianity.  My church would occasionally do the gibberish outburst followed by "the interpretation".  The second part always struck me as off the wall even when I believed in it.  Like really?  God interrupted us just to tell us that nonsense?  I never felt moved to participate in either the interruption or the interpretation.  My gibberish only seemed appropriate when I was in prayer.

[florduh]

Those who are emotionally unstable and/or have a tenuous connection with reality have a much more dramatic and "real" experience. If they hadn't been snared by an overly emotional branch of Christianity, such people would be seeing psychics and getting chills at the "accuracy" of their readings or they might believe they can cast spells and get all tingly at their apparent (to them) success. Magic only exists in the head, and some heads are just built for it.

[♦ ficino ♦]

When I was in Calvinist seminary, there was a Lutheran guy who rented a room in the dorm. One day some of the students were talking about being born again. Someone asked Dan about his born again experience. He freaked them all out by saying, "I believe I was regenerated at baptism." As an infant.

 

I don't know the ins and outs of Lutheran theology, but churches that have all seven sacraments - Catholic, E. Orthodox, Episcopalian (high church, anyway) - hold that one is born again in the sacrament of baptism. Later on you may be in or out of a state of grace. Catholic doctrine does not teach the Protestant misconception "salvation by works." It teaches it's all by grace. but Catholic doctrine says that you are justified to the extent that you are sanctified. (that's the logic behind purgatory...) They have scripture for all this.

 

My point is that churches like protestant charismatics put the emphasis on experience. That can be very cruel to the individual, as you've seen, because experience fluctuates so much. One of the advantages of the older forms of church and theology is that the emphasis is not so much on whether the believer has the right kind of religious experience but is on what God does through "means," which are basically the Church. If you come out of the confessional and the priest has absolved you of your sins, they're absolved. Although it matters that you confess truthfully and mean it, it doesn't matter whether you feel forgiven afterwards.

[Adam5]

..From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing.

 

From my POV you are now saved or in the process of being saved from ignorance and superstition!

 

Welcome to the enlightenment.

[Guest afireinside]

Thanks Adam5.

 

Always took the teachings of others way too seriously and ultimately formed a blueprint for failure. Now I'm in a place of part anger- part relief and navigating my way out of this mess an like you say onto enlightenment

[Guest afireinside]

Thanks Adam5.

 

Always took the teachings of others way too seriously and ultimately formed a blueprint for failure. Now I'm in a place of part anger- part relief and navigating my way out of this mess an like you say onto enlightenment

[sdelsolray]

…

From your POV am I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul

…

The is a false trichotomy, a logical fallacy.  Study about this first - learn what a false trichotomy (or false dichotomy) is and why it is a false trichotomy (hint:  there are other choices), and the answer should become quite clear.

[Guest ninurta]

Welcome to ex-c!

 

You have every right and reason to be angry. You were told something was true by grown adults that ought to have known better. Notice how they blame you when you express uncertainty? Alot of them are in your boots too, they just don't wish to admit it, not even to themselves. So they blame you.

 

It's a rough thing, especially coming from the more fundamentalist sorts of christianity, to deconvert. You're whole worldview gets torn to shreds, starting from the centerpiece, working your way out.

[amateur]

I come from a very stodgy Methodist background, and if anybody had ever spoken in tongues in that church, everybody would have turned politely away until the person stopped speaking, then the service would have resumed as before, and NOBODY would have ever spoken of it again.

 

I considered myself born again as a teenager, but never had any huge revelatory experiences.  Absolutely no speaking in tongues, but I certainly didn't expect anything that would have caused a disruption in church!  I worked my way out of belief, and realized I'm not saved or unsaved, I'm just a person getting to hang out for some time on this earth and enjoy it.

[Guest afireinside]

Thanks Amateur

 

Part of the reason I posed this question is because I am/was part of a Pentecostal/ Charismatic church. I have explained my feelings to my pastor who simply said that God HAD spoken to me a lot of times I just didn't realise and to start attending a series on hearing from God(as the problem is obviously my lack of understanding)

 

I'm just curious how they would view me now and if they think I was a poseur or am still in the fold but a bit wayward.

 

I know what I believe but don't think they would give me an honest answer of where I'm at(in their eyes) and why I made the mistakes that got me here(unbelief)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Thanks Amateur

 

Part of the reason I posed this question is because I am/was part of a Pentecostal/ Charismatic church. I have explained my feelings to my pastor who simply said that God HAD spoken to me a lot of times I just didn't realise and to start attending a series on hearing from God(as the problem is obviously my lack of understanding)

 

I'm just curious how they would view me now and if they think I was a poseur or am still in the fold but a bit wayward.

 

I know what I believe but don't think they would give me an honest answer of where I'm at(in their eyes) and why I made the mistakes that got me here(unbelief)

It's funny how they can always turn everything into your fault.  god spoke to you but you didn't hear him; god moved in your life but you didn't realize it; god had a plan for you but you screwed it all up because of your sin/lack of faith/unbelief/stubbornness.  It's never god's fault, oh no; he's perfect... but he can't speak to you loud enough for you to hear.

[Guest afireinside]

One instance a few years back I was told I must have a "blockage" WTF?

[amateur]

^^^WHAT???  Were you constipated with backed-up god?!?

 

That SO explains a lot of xians I've known!

[Guest afireinside]

Yes!

 

Holy Spirit enemas!

 

$10.99 from your local Christian bookshop

[Guest afireinside]

Just be sure to read the label first!:

 

Take only as directed

 

If symptoms persist, please see your Pastor

 

Holy Spirit enemas accept no blame for repeat spiritual attack, demon possession or loss of salvation

 

A Phizer/Rick Joyner registered product

[FriendlyChristian]

I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved.

 

I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum.

 

Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing.

 

I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper".

 

Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing?

 

From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing.

 

Hey afireinside,

 

I'm also 31 (I turn 32 in April).  I first gave my life to Christ in a Pentacostal church at the age of 19.   It's been a long journey since then, but right now I'm going to a Baptist church and some of my own church members claim that Pentacostals are just a "health and wealth cult."

 

This aside, I've always thought that (somehow) the key was to not allow all of these denominational ideas to divide and accuse us.  That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone, without any need of some particular person's pulpit.

 

The gospel message is simple and yet ripe with some complexities.

 

Simple because we know love will always do whatever it takes to reconcile us to a loving relationship.  Complex because a naïve, or selfish, understanding of what this actually entails requires a substantial amount of reflection.

 

Love is such a simple concept, really.  It's a gift.  We don't have to earn it.  It's freely given, even if the beloved is a total jerk about it.  But when the person we love does not respond with love. . .  issues get complex.  How can a relationship actually exist without two people loving each other?  Sure, mistakes can happen, but the core of any good relationship has to be love.  Any good lover knows that if you love enough, you will probably illicit a response of love from even the most hardened heart.  But some hearts grow so cold, so hard, that even the greatest act of love (which requires nothing of us in return) is swept upon like muddy shoes on a cheap carpet.

 

There can be no relationship in such a situation.