pratt Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved. I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum. Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing. I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper". Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing? From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing. Hey afireinside, I'm also 31 (I turn 32 in April). I first gave my life to Christ in a Pentacostal church at the age of 19. It's been a long journey since then, but right now I'm going to a Baptist church and some of my own church members claim that Pentacostals are just a "health and wealth cult." This aside, I've always thought that (somehow) the key was to not allow all of these denominational ideas to divide and accuse us. That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone, without any need of some particular person's pulpit. The gospel message is simple and yet ripe with some complexities. Simple because we know love will always do whatever it takes to reconcile us to a loving relationship. Complex because a naïve, or selfish, understanding of what this actually entails requires a substantial amount of reflection. Love is such a simple concept, really. It's a gift. We don't have to earn it. It's freely given, even if the beloved is a total jerk about it. But when the person we love does not respond with love. . . issues get complex. How can a relationship actually exist without two people loving each other? Sure, mistakes can happen, but the core of any good relationship has to be love. Any good lover knows that if you love enough, you will probably illicit a response of love from even the most hardened heart. But some hearts grow so cold, so hard, that even the greatest act of love (which requires nothing of us in return) is swept upon like muddy shoes on a cheap carpet. There can be no relationship in such a situation. go fuck yourself 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 20, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted March 20, 2014 How can a relationship actually exist without two people loving each other? There can be no relationship in such a situation. How can a relationship actually exist when one of the participants actually doesn't? There can be no relationship in such a situation. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereisnoperfect Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 This aside, I've always thought that (somehow) the key was to not allow all of these denominational ideas to divide and accuse us. That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone, without any need of some particular person's pulpit. If that's true, then why are there all those divisions? Why do a bunch of people who are sincerely seeking to connect with Jesus come up with so many different answers? Didn't Jesus himself say that it was by being unified in love that people would recognize his disciples? Why doesn't that happen, except within small like-minded groups (which also happens in every other human community)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 20, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted March 20, 2014 That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone Why is there so much evil, suffering, and starvation in the world? Because of jesus. You're correct, all of the answers can be found in jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmaxmaxmax Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Any good lover knows that if you love enough, you will probably illicit a response of love from even the most hardened heart. No, that's harassment. Please do not try out your version of love on any vulnerable people. If you do, do not be surprised if they call the police. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone, without any need of some particular person's pulpit. What a wonderful way to prove that Jesus is not God. Jesus doesn't give us any answers. Instead we get a cult that tells us to stop asking questions. How can a relationship actually exist without two people loving each other? An even better question is how can a relationship actually exist when one of the people in it is imaginary? There can be no relationship in such a situation. Christianity is a religion, not a relationship. The claim that it is a relationship is self deluding and dishonest. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved. I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum. Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing. I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper". Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing? From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing. Ex-Charismatic/Pentecostal here. No, you're just like every other (ex) Charismatic/Pentecostal. God doesn't deliver because he don't exist. People who claim they received this from God or that from God might have received something, but it was most likely from more mundane reasons...like, they worked for it. Those that claim that God did this or that are using wishful thinking. Calling people CINO or lukewarm Christians is just a guilt trip to keep you coming to church and giving generously to pay the wages of a Pastor who doesnt really do shit for a living. I only bought into about half of the church guilt baloney during my 10 year stint as a Christian but that was bad enough. So why didnt God do anything for you after 8 years of blood, sweat and tears? Because he isn't real and religions are a farce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved. I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum. Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing. I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper". Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing? From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing. Hey afireinside, I'm also 31 (I turn 32 in April). I first gave my life to Christ in a Pentacostal church at the age of 19. It's been a long journey since then, but right now I'm going to a Baptist church and some of my own church members claim that Pentacostals are just a "health and wealth cult." This aside, I've always thought that (somehow) the key was to not allow all of these denominational ideas to divide and accuse us. That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone, without any need of some particular person's pulpit. The gospel message is simple and yet ripe with some complexities. Simple because we know love will always do whatever it takes to reconcile us to a loving relationship. Complex because a naïve, or selfish, understanding of what this actually entails requires a substantial amount of reflection. Love is such a simple concept, really. It's a gift. We don't have to earn it. It's freely given, even if the beloved is a total jerk about it. But when the person we love does not respond with love. . . issues get complex. How can a relationship actually exist without two people loving each other? Sure, mistakes can happen, but the core of any good relationship has to be love. Any good lover knows that if you love enough, you will probably illicit a response of love from even the most hardened heart. But some hearts grow so cold, so hard, that even the greatest act of love (which requires nothing of us in return) is swept upon like muddy shoes on a cheap carpet. There can be no relationship in such a situation. Mods, should this thread be relocated to another thread where Friendly can't hit Afireinside with Christian bullshit? This thread is more about recovering from the big lie of Jesus than debate with Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved. I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum. Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing. I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper". Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing? From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing. Hey afireinside, I'm also 31 (I turn 32 in April). I first gave my life to Christ in a Pentacostal church at the age of 19. It's been a long journey since then, but right now I'm going to a Baptist church and some of my own church members claim that Pentacostals are just a "health and wealth cult." This aside, I've always thought that (somehow) the key was to not allow all of these denominational ideas to divide and accuse us. That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone, without any need of some particular person's pulpit. The gospel message is simple and yet ripe with some complexities. Simple because we know love will always do whatever it takes to reconcile us to a loving relationship. Complex because a naïve, or selfish, understanding of what this actually entails requires a substantial amount of reflection. Love is such a simple concept, really. It's a gift. We don't have to earn it. It's freely given, even if the beloved is a total jerk about it. But when the person we love does not respond with love. . . issues get complex. How can a relationship actually exist without two people loving each other? Sure, mistakes can happen, but the core of any good relationship has to be love. Any good lover knows that if you love enough, you will probably illicit a response of love from even the most hardened heart. But some hearts grow so cold, so hard, that even the greatest act of love (which requires nothing of us in return) is swept upon like muddy shoes on a cheap carpet. There can be no relationship in such a situation. Did you even read his message? He said he poured his heart out to God and got zero in return. "But when the person we love does not respond with love. . . issues get complex." -- When the (imaginary) person you love, such as Jesus, does not respond then why keep trying? It's a waste of time. And the reason Jesus never responds is because he doesn't exist. Sure, we can pretend that the reason something occurred was due to the answer of Jesus, or Zeus, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster (all praise His noodley goodness) , but it's ridiculous to do so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 This aside, I've always thought that (somehow) the key was to not allow all of these denominational ideas to divide and accuse us. That if Jesus is really God, then all of the answers ought to be found in Him, and Him alone, without any need of some particular person's pulpit. If Jesus were 1) Real , and 2) Actually had some power, there would be no denominations to divide Christianity. And if Jesus really was God, then all of the answers ought to be found in him. So why arent they? Because 1) He is not real and 2) Therefore he has no answers. If Jesus really was almighty God and all of the answers were found in him, there would be no other religions. There would be no non-religious people. There would be no Ex-Christian.net. So, because this is not the case, Jesus is not really God nor does Jesus have all the answers. Christianity is mental manipulation via fear, guilt and shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Thanks friendly Christian, after you're spirit led analysis of me I was spurred to write a poem My broken heart called to you in sincerity When I was vulnerable, without defenses I claimed the promises you offered me Without doubt, devoid of pretenses You said follow the narrow path My joy would be made complete But when I grew weak and fell face first You failed to bring me back to my feet Yet I crawled on bloodied hands and knees It was not you're fault, it was all mine The said strength came through trials And the answers would come with time Now it seems you were never there And all along I was deceived and alone As I now retreat and face the truth Self righteous fucking pilgrims say "brother come on home" Oh and god you parted the Red Sea How about supernaturally deactivating some land mines in Cambodia and Vietnam You also showered manna down for 40 years in the Sinai desert How about some of that shit for the starving kids in Niger and Sudan Sorry guess you're too busy right now Finding parking spots for the smug white middle class So when you're done you can take your fucking bullshit word And shove it up your all knowing ass!! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I'm going to hell for that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted March 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted March 21, 2014 Thanks friendly Christian, after you're spirit led analysis of me I was spurred to write a poem My broken heart called to you in sincerity When I was vulnerable, without defenses I claimed the promises you offered me Without doubt, devoid of pretenses You said follow the narrow path My joy would be made complete But when I grew weak and fell face first You failed to bring me back to my feet Yet I crawled on bloodied hands and knees It was not you're fault, it was all mine The said strength came through trials And the answers would come with time Now it seems you were never there And all along I was deceived and alone As I now retreat and face the truth Self righteous fucking pilgrims say "brother come on home" Oh and god you parted the Red Sea How about supernaturally deactivating some land mines in Cambodia and Vietnam You also showered manna down for 40 years in the Sinai desert How about some of that shit for the starving kids in Niger and Sudan Sorry guess you're too busy right now Finding parking spots for the smug white middle class So when you're done you can take your fucking bullshit word And shove it up your all knowing ass!! Wow! I think you put into poetry what 99.9% of the members feel. Would you mind if I copied your poem and put it in the Creative Works section? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Afireinside, excellent poem. It's like the ex-christians "Footprints in the Sand". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'm going to hell for that one No, you are not. And we thank you for expressing what we ex-c's have experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Yea all good do what you like with it haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'm going to hell for that one I wouldn't worry about it. Nice poem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'm not worried- good thing I'm not an ex-Muslim or I'd have a Fatwa on me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I like your poem-- particularly the shove it up your ass part!!! I was a Catholic, then Pentecostal Christian. I was baptized twice, spoke in tongues, and went to church 3times a week--- never, ever felt god. I just felt like a fake---- and I always felt like I was never good enough. You are just beginning to be honest with yourself. That is a scary, yet interesting time. Enjoy the exploration!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Thanks Kris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved. I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum. Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing. I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper". Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing? From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing. A person can accept Christ in the religious environment you described, but Pentecostal teachings often cause trouble for sincere believers. Instead of learning more about the teachings of Christ and a genuine study of scriptures people are told to go deeper by feeling zapped with emotions....speaking in tongues...getting anointed by the Spirit and other so called events. It seems several posters here were also taught this nonsense. I will not go into detail here, but what the Charismatics teach is a lie. It has done great harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved. I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum. Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing. I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper". Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing? From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing. A person can accept Christ in the religious environment you described, but Pentecostal teachings often cause trouble for sincere believers. Instead of learning more about the teachings of Christ and a genuine study of scriptures people are told to go deeper by feeling zapped with emotions....speaking in tongues...getting anointed by the Spirit and other so called events. It seems several posters here were also taught this nonsense. I will not go into detail here, but what the Charismatics teach is a lie. It has done great harm. Once again, the excuse that the person was in the wrong denomination... the wrong brand of christianity. Isn't accepting jesus as your saviour supposed to be a personal relationship? Ironhorse, are you suggesting that the personal relationship we've all been told about is wrong and that we should have been members of a specific denomination? Because, if it's a personal relationship, why would that matter? Wouldn't the holy spirit tell us what was true and what wasn't? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MadameX Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 You were never really Scottish. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Like I said earlier---I was at least two complete different denominations and still never felt god or saved or like my life was any better. I sure did not feel comforted by god. I guess I didn't find the right church--- or god didn't lead me to the right church because I was already hell bound. Christianity hams been such a twisted mess for hundreds of years. You have to question that this is how an omnipotent god decided to share the message---- doesn't it seem he could do much better? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I guess I may be walking the gauntlet here and opening myself up for some educating but I'm curious to know whether from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective was I actually saved. I responded to the alter call, went headlong into Christianity gave up all my vices, prayed daily almost in an obsessive compulsive manner always giving thanks to Jesus, fasted to draw near to God, gave money/time/dignity to the cause, read the word(memorised and spoke it aloud), bound spirits, cried out to God to speak and give me His spirit, had hands laid on me time and time again, witnessed, interceded, sought Gods will etc etc ad nauseum. Never once did I hear or feel anything definitive, I so badly wanted to speak in tongues but couldn't despite asking and asking, asked God to break me and this and that but still nothing. I'm 31 and this cycle of asking and being rejected went on for 8 years until this year I finally said I've had it, sick of playing games and chasing something so elusive and hence am here-a non believer full of angst at the religion and disappointment that I couldn't get the breakthrough I needed to "go deeper". Theologians go on about people being Christian in name only not in Spirit. If I'm one of these why didn't God give me the spirit when I pleaded and leave me hanging so to speak. Was I unsaved, unwanted or what? Why do some get instant answers? Speaking in tongues etc and people like me nothing? From your POV an I saved, unsaved or once saved but now a lost soul? And why the BS jumping through hoops for nothing but frustration?. No by grace answers please I spent a lot of time accepting free grace and the whole "not by works" theology- still nothing. A person can accept Christ in the religious environment you described, but Pentecostal teachings often cause trouble for sincere believers. Instead of learning more about the teachings of Christ and a genuine study of scriptures people are told to go deeper by feeling zapped with emotions....speaking in tongues...getting anointed by the Spirit and other so called events. It seems several posters here were also taught this nonsense. I will not go into detail here, but what the Charismatics teach is a lie. It has done great harm. Once again, the excuse that the person was in the wrong denomination... the wrong brand of christianity. Isn't accepting jesus as your saviour supposed to be a personal relationship? Ironhorse, are you suggesting that the personal relationship we've all been told about is wrong and that we should have been members of a specific denomination? Because, if it's a personal relationship, why would that matter? Wouldn't the holy spirit tell us what was true and what wasn't? I did not say anything against a personal relationship with Christ. That is what matters. The scriptures warn believers to be careful of false teachers and doctrines. They cause great harm to the believers and to our witness. To help us the Spirit needs us to use our brain. Example: At the beginning of a Joel Osteen service he has the thousands of members hold up their Bibles and say a pledge that they believe in the word. Then they sit down and Sunday after Sunday Osteen preaches false teachings and doctrines. The members are not "testing" what he says with their Bibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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