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Goodbye Jesus

Slavery Part Deux


Roz

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   10:46 AM
    Roz
    has entered the room
    10:47 AM
    Conversationalist
    has entered the room
    Conversationalist
    Hey Roz
     
    lol. sorry if I was rude.
     
    Trying to keep up
    Roz
    I don't care if you're rude or not, I'm going to judge our conversation based on the merits of your words
     
    I'm as sincere with you as I am with all I meet
    10:48 AM
    Conversationalist
    As do we all.
     
    So how do you find most Christians treat you?
     
    In work, in play, on the street. . . etc.\
    Roz
    at some level christians all try to re-convert
     
    for the most part, well enough, I work with 2 muslims, 3 christians, and 1 hindu
    10:49 AM
    christophercomplex
    has entered the room
    Conversationalist
    I agree with that Roz.
    Roz
    now, tell me this
     
    why are you a christian
    Conversationalist
    Most christians do.
    christophercomplex
    Sup
    10:50 AM
    Conversationalist
    Hey Chris.
     
    To answer your question Roz
     
    It's mainly because I find Christianity makes far greater sense, on multiple lines of thinking, than any other world view.
    Roz
    uh huh
     
    then since you both are christians
    10:51 AM
    Conversationalist
    Pragmatic, intellectual, personal, spiritual, experiential, empirical. etc.
    Roz
    do you believe that your god is the god of the whole bible
    Conversationalist
    I think so yes.
    Roz
    if so, give justification on his orders in Lev. 25
    Conversationalist
    Although I've had my doubts in the past.
    Roz
    I will wait
    christophercomplex
    Hello?
    10:52 AM
    Conversationalist
    Your asking about slavery in the Old Testament?
    Roz
    yes
     
    give your answer as to why your god institutionalized it
    Conversationalist
    What is "slavery" as you understand the word?
    Roz
    it's lifetime slavery
     
    Please read the whole chapter
    10:53 AM
    Conversationalist
    Well. "Slavery" as I understand the word means kidnapping a human being from their home and forcing them to do manual labor.
    christophercomplex
    Okies
    Conversationalist
    Is your understanding similar?
    Roz
    no, it means buying someone and making them your slave for life
    10:54 AM
    Conversationalist
    Well, before you can buy them . . . they have to be made property.
     
    How do you make someone property?
    Roz
    by buying them
     
    your slaves may come from the nations around you
     
    from them you may buy slaves
    Conversationalist
    Roz, can I buy you for $100,000?
    christophercomplex
    What I talking about
    Roz
    I am a black man
    christophercomplex
    U
    Roz
    you are offensive, but I will let that slide
    10:55 AM
    Conversationalist
    Is $100,000 enough?
    christophercomplex
    What you talking about
    Roz
    The earlier verses talk about property rights
     
    specifically real estate
     
    how some property must be returned on the year of jubilee
    Conversationalist
    I'm asking you *how* a person gets treated as property.
    Roz
    and some only have 1 year to get resold
     
    otherwise it's permanent
    10:56 AM
    Conversationalist
    Obviously offering you money didn't make you think you were property right?
    Roz
    Conversationalist, your god gave license to buy people
     
    for life
     
    read 44-46
    Conversationalist
    So *how* do you think a person comes to be treated as property?
     
    on what basis?
    Roz
    by the other nations selling them to your christian brothers and sisters
    10:57 AM
    christophercomplex
    has left the room
    Roz
    you condone and endorse slavery?
    Conversationalist
    But before you can sell something, you have to own it.
    Roz
    No, if it is against that person's will
    christophercomplex
    has entered the room
    Roz
    it becomes might is right
    Conversationalist
    My question is. . . how is the sense of ownership derived?
    Roz
    if you cannot answer for your god, then I will discount you as just another christian who doesn't understand his religion
     
    the slaves could be fighting against it, but they were powerless when they were sold
    10:58 AM
    Conversationalist
    Ahhh. . . well. . . I think even if you have the power to say you own a person. . . your power doesn't influence reality.
     
    Power can't change a mind. Only a mind can do that.
     
    Only a mind can change itself.
    Roz
    the reality is that your god gave permission to own other humans
    10:59 AM
    Conversationalist
    Power doesn't make me right, nor you right.
    Roz
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
     
    right, and it doesn't make god right
    Conversationalist
    That's simply not true.
    Roz
    so god, being mighty, is automatically right?
    Conversationalist
    Here is my direct answer:
    Roz
    why did god say don't treat fellow israelites ruthlessly? why not all?
    11:00 AM
    Conversationalist
    Slavery is defined as ownership as another human being. There are 4 methods by which "ownership" may be ascertained.
    Roz
    don't treat anyone ruthlessly
     
    When your ancestors enslaved my ancestors
    Conversationalist
    1) Voluntary slavery. A person can sell themselves as a slave.
    Roz
    we had no power against your guns
    11:01 AM
    Conversationalist
    2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court to pay it back.
    Roz
    If you are japanese, when you invaded the philippines, china, and korea, your might does not equal right
     
    42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to y
    Conversationalist
    3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor).
    Roz
    why did god say that israelites MUST NOT be sold as slaves
     
    but non-israelites could
    11:02 AM
    christophercomplex
    I'll come back later
    Roz
    Do you believe that making someone your property for life is good?
    Conversationalist
    4) Kidnapping & slavery. A person did not voluntarily sell their freedom. A person did not borrow any money. A person did not commit any crime. . . and yet they are enslaved.
     
    The Bible is *EXPLICITLY AGAINST THE FOURTH TYPE OF SLAVERY*
    Roz
    no, only within israel
    11:03 AM
    Conversationalist
    The first three types of slavery are still practiced to this very day.
    Roz
    it had no control about the other nations
    sneakyflute
    has entered the room
    Roz
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    Conversationalist
    So if you want to understand what you are objecting against. . . the best bet is to ask *how* a person comes to be regarded as property.
    11:04 AM
    Conversationalist
    But *HOW* does a person *FIRST* come to be regarded as property.
    Roz
    no, what I find disgusting is that you cannot directly answer why your god allowed israelites to own other people
     
    permanently
    Conversationalist
    See? There are four different ways.
    Roz
    and this conversation will later be posted in the forums
     
    for all to judge and see
    Conversationalist
    Its the fourth way that the Bible *explicitly* condemns. And the first three are still practiced even today in modern society.
    11:05 AM
    christophercomplex
    has left the room
    Roz
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    Conversationalist
    Except we don't call it "slavery" anymore.
    Roz
    what part of "your slaves are to come from nations around you, from them you may buy slave"
    sneakyflute
    hey. how long have you guys been ex-Christians?
    Roz
    do you not understand
    Conversationalist
    Now we call it "obligatory community service." Or "indentured servitude." Or "bankruptcy."
    Roz
    it directly refutes your 'fourth' reason
    11:06 AM
    Conversationalist
    I'm new Sneaky
     
    you?
    Roz
    it is for life
     
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
     
    You can give your slaves to your children and make them slaves for life
     
    your god is a slaver
    sneakyflute
    I've never been a theist but I've recently become interested in deconversion after reading an article about Jerry Dewitt
    Conversationalist
    verse 45 and 46 only presuppose that slaves exist. It doesn't say HOW they became slaves. . . or whether or not the manner in which they became slaves is under category 1, 2, 3, or 4.
    11:07 AM
    Conversationalist
    HOW you become a slave is the key.\
     
    Is it because of your own volition?
     
    Or not?
    Roz
    they may become slaves any number of ways, but how does it make it right to OWN them afterwards
     
    for life
     
    slavery is evil in any respect
     
    as a black man, I abhor it
    Conversationalist
    If they chose to . . . I think they shouldn't be allowed to.
     
    We agree.
     
    But some societies disagree.
    Roz
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    Conversationalist
    Some societies think you should be allowed to sell your freedom if you want to.
    Roz
    the biblical society disagrees with you
    11:08 AM
    Conversationalist
    I disagree with that.
     
    you disagree with that.
    Roz
    the israelite society owned slaves for life
     
    and you really cannot see it
    Conversationalist
    But allowing people to sell their own freedom is common.
    Roz
    because you are blinded by your faith
     
    why then did god not allow that for israelite to israelite?
    Conversationalist
    What's more, is, that slaves were set free every 70 years.
    Roz
    42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
    11:09 AM
    Conversationalist
    Even though slaves became slaves by their own volition.
    Roz
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
    Conversationalist
    They were still set free.
    Roz
    I can see you are not going to answer truthfully
     
    this conversation will be posted in the forums
     
    thank you for the conversation
    Conversationalist
    Yes. There verses show that slavery existed. But HOW (on what basis) did slaves become slaves.
     
    thx

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Another christian afflicted with cognitive dissonance.  Bless his heart. 

 

And yes, he offered to buy a black man for 100,000 dollars. 

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Guest Conversationalist

There are four patterns by which a human being (historically) may be treated as property:

 

1) Voluntary slavery. A person can voluntarily sell their freedom and be treated as a slave    
 

2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court of law until such a time that their "due" is paid back.\

 

3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism for example) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor) until such a time as the damages of their crime are paid back.

 

4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery.  This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human."  Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor.

 

The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery.  The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society.

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There are four patterns by which a human being (historically) may be treated as property:

 

1) Voluntary slavery. A person can voluntarily sell their freedom and be treated as a slave    
---39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

 

 

2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court of law until such a time that their "due" is paid back.\

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

 

 

3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism for example) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor) until such a time as the damages of their crime are paid back.

---not covered in Lev 25, but ok, sure

 

 

4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery.  This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human."  Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor.

---

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

---Direct refutation, showing the christian does not believe the bible he holds dear.

 

The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery.  

---see above

 

The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society.

 

No answer as to why

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

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wow,,,,, justifying salvery,,,, i am impressed,,,, hallelujah

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It should be noted that this classification goes to real estate rights as well:

 

29 “‘Anyone who sells a house in a walled city retains the right of redemption a full year after its sale. During that time the seller may redeem it. 30 If it is not redeemed before a full year has passed, the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to the buyer and the buyer’s descendants. It is not to be returned in the Jubilee. 31 But houses in villages without walls around them are to be considered as belonging to the open country. They can be redeemed, and they are to be returned in the Jubilee.

 

That specifically states that city houses can be owned permanently, but village houses are to be returned.

 

---

 

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

 

This passage shows that 'fellow israelites' are not to be permanent slaves.  They can return.

 

---

 

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

 

Shows that god is a slaver. 

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The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery.  

 

Not true.  Don't make us quote verses.

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For the record, I post this in order to show that all christians, be they nice or mean, have some level of cognitive dissonance due to their christian indoctrination.

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The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery.  

 

Not true.  Don't make us quote verses.

 

 

Too late   jesus.gif

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And theres the rub.  Whether or not you assign the explict label of "slave" is really a technicality.

 

Because we don't call people who volunarily sell their freedom "slaves" . . . instead we call them "military."

 

And we don't call people who are in debt up to their necks "slaves".  . . instead we call them "nearing bankruptcy."

 

And we don't call people who commit crimes and are then forced to clean up after their own damage "slaves". . . instead we say they are doing "court ordered community service."

 

That label you attach it is just semantics.  Slavery is slavery.  If someone owns you (a government, a courtroom, or a bank). . . that ownership can be tacit or it can be explicit.

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44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

 

Still can't see it, but then again god glasses are a bitch to take off.

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So. . . release the children but make the parent pay off their debt to society / government / private party?  Where should the kids go while the parents pay off what they owe?

 

The reasons for the law is the substance of the law.

 

Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee?  For what reason?

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Why did your god say that israelites can be freed and non-israelites are for life.

 

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.

 

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

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There are four patterns by which a human being (historically) may be treated as property:

 

1) Voluntary slavery. A person can voluntarily sell their freedom and be treated as a slave    

 

2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court of law until such a time that their "due" is paid back.\

 

3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism for example) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor) until such a time as the damages of their crime are paid back.

 

4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery.  This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human."  Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor.

 

The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery.  The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society.

Listen to yourself. You are defending the institution of slavery, which is a system by which one person is permitted to own another, regardless of HOW it happens it is WRONG.

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And theres the rub.  Whether or not you assign the explict label of "slave" is really a technicality.

 

Because we don't call people who volunarily sell their freedom "slaves" . . . instead we call them "military."

 

And we don't call people who are in debt up to their necks "slaves".  . . instead we call them "nearing bankruptcy."

 

And we don't call people who commit crimes and are then forced to clean up after their own damage "slaves". . . instead we say they are doing "court ordered community service."

 

That label you attach it is just semantics.  Slavery is slavery.  If someone owns you (a government, a courtroom, or a bank). . . that ownership can be tacit or it can be explicit.

 

 

I am allowed to whip my slave as much as I wish.  I am not allowed to whip my solders, my customers and criminals.  Not even my employees.  Only slaves are property.

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Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee?  For what reason?

 

 

Propaganda.  

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Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee?  For what reason?

 

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

 

Please stop lying.

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How does being invaded by a neighboring country and being forced into slavery become "voluntarily selling your freedom"?

 

I just love how the christian tries to re-define the meaning of a word or phrase so they can have a better time defending it.  

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I am doing this so that somehow Conversationalist can see the cruelty of his religion.  He might be a good man, I don't know him in real life.  However, it is his religion that makes him believe what he wants to believe, regardless of anything else.

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4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery.  This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human."  Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor.

 

The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery.  The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society.

 

Did I miss the chapter and verse supporting this claim?

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Guest Conversationalist

 

Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee?  For what reason?

 

 

Propaganda.  

 

 

Negative my friend.  The reason for Jubilee is given in Leviticus 25:17. . . you just weren't looking for the reason. 

 

"Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God."

 

That is the reasoning process given for Jubilee.  "Jubilee" is the practice of releasing every slave from their debt to society / government /  or private party.  All three forms of slavery have something to do with the voluntary choices made by the individual. . . nothing to do with their ethnicity.

 

Christian paradigms are responsible for eliminating ethnically based slavery systems.  Unfortunately the other three forms of slavery (economic, criminal, voluntary) still exist.

 

But we still hope to be a force to work against these as well!

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Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee?  For what reason?

 

 

Propaganda.  

 

 

Negative my friend.  The reason for Jubilee is given in Leviticus 25:17. . . you just weren't looking for the reason. 

 

"Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God."

 

That is the reasoning process given for Jubilee-- the practice of releasing every slave from their debt to society / government /  or private party.

 

 

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.

 

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

 

Lies upon lies upon lies coming out from the christian's mouth.

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Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee?  For what reason?

 

 

Propaganda.  

 

 

Negative my friend.  The reason for Jubilee is given in Leviticus 25:17. . . you just weren't looking for the reason. 

 

"Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God."

 

That is the reasoning process given for Jubilee.  "Jubilee" is the practice of releasing every slave from their debt to society / government /  or private party.  All three forms of slavery have something to do with the voluntary choices made by the individual. . . nothing to do with their ethnicity.

 

Christian paradigms are responsible for eliminating ethnically based slavery systems.  Unfortunately the other three forms of slavery (economic, criminal, voluntary) exist.

 

So having a slave for 7 years isn't taking advantage? Look at the logical hoops you have to jump through to justify your God's immorality!

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I ask this again:

 

Why did your god say that israelites can be freed and non-israelites are for life. 

 

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.

 

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

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I hope we're clear that god allowed israelite 'servants' to go free at jubilee, but he allowed foreigners to be 'slaves for life.'

 

Why did he use this classification?

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