Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 10:46 AM Roz has entered the room 10:47 AM Conversationalist has entered the room Conversationalist Hey Roz lol. sorry if I was rude. Trying to keep up Roz I don't care if you're rude or not, I'm going to judge our conversation based on the merits of your words I'm as sincere with you as I am with all I meet 10:48 AM Conversationalist As do we all. So how do you find most Christians treat you? In work, in play, on the street. . . etc.\ Roz at some level christians all try to re-convert for the most part, well enough, I work with 2 muslims, 3 christians, and 1 hindu 10:49 AM christophercomplex has entered the room Conversationalist I agree with that Roz. Roz now, tell me this why are you a christian Conversationalist Most christians do. christophercomplex Sup 10:50 AM Conversationalist Hey Chris. To answer your question Roz It's mainly because I find Christianity makes far greater sense, on multiple lines of thinking, than any other world view. Roz uh huh then since you both are christians 10:51 AM Conversationalist Pragmatic, intellectual, personal, spiritual, experiential, empirical. etc. Roz do you believe that your god is the god of the whole bible Conversationalist I think so yes. Roz if so, give justification on his orders in Lev. 25 Conversationalist Although I've had my doubts in the past. Roz I will wait christophercomplex Hello? 10:52 AM Conversationalist Your asking about slavery in the Old Testament? Roz yes give your answer as to why your god institutionalized it Conversationalist What is "slavery" as you understand the word? Roz it's lifetime slavery Please read the whole chapter 10:53 AM Conversationalist Well. "Slavery" as I understand the word means kidnapping a human being from their home and forcing them to do manual labor. christophercomplex Okies Conversationalist Is your understanding similar? Roz no, it means buying someone and making them your slave for life 10:54 AM Conversationalist Well, before you can buy them . . . they have to be made property. How do you make someone property? Roz by buying them your slaves may come from the nations around you from them you may buy slaves Conversationalist Roz, can I buy you for $100,000? christophercomplex What I talking about Roz I am a black man christophercomplex U Roz you are offensive, but I will let that slide 10:55 AM Conversationalist Is $100,000 enough? christophercomplex What you talking about Roz The earlier verses talk about property rights specifically real estate how some property must be returned on the year of jubilee Conversationalist I'm asking you *how* a person gets treated as property. Roz and some only have 1 year to get resold otherwise it's permanent 10:56 AM Conversationalist Obviously offering you money didn't make you think you were property right? Roz Conversationalist, your god gave license to buy people for life read 44-46 Conversationalist So *how* do you think a person comes to be treated as property? on what basis? Roz by the other nations selling them to your christian brothers and sisters 10:57 AM christophercomplex has left the room Roz you condone and endorse slavery? Conversationalist But before you can sell something, you have to own it. Roz No, if it is against that person's will christophercomplex has entered the room Roz it becomes might is right Conversationalist My question is. . . how is the sense of ownership derived? Roz if you cannot answer for your god, then I will discount you as just another christian who doesn't understand his religion the slaves could be fighting against it, but they were powerless when they were sold 10:58 AM Conversationalist Ahhh. . . well. . . I think even if you have the power to say you own a person. . . your power doesn't influence reality. Power can't change a mind. Only a mind can do that. Only a mind can change itself. Roz the reality is that your god gave permission to own other humans 10:59 AM Conversationalist Power doesn't make me right, nor you right. Roz 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. right, and it doesn't make god right Conversationalist That's simply not true. Roz so god, being mighty, is automatically right? Conversationalist Here is my direct answer: Roz why did god say don't treat fellow israelites ruthlessly? why not all? 11:00 AM Conversationalist Slavery is defined as ownership as another human being. There are 4 methods by which "ownership" may be ascertained. Roz don't treat anyone ruthlessly When your ancestors enslaved my ancestors Conversationalist 1) Voluntary slavery. A person can sell themselves as a slave. Roz we had no power against your guns 11:01 AM Conversationalist 2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court to pay it back. Roz If you are japanese, when you invaded the philippines, china, and korea, your might does not equal right 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to y Conversationalist 3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor). Roz why did god say that israelites MUST NOT be sold as slaves but non-israelites could 11:02 AM christophercomplex I'll come back later Roz Do you believe that making someone your property for life is good? Conversationalist 4) Kidnapping & slavery. A person did not voluntarily sell their freedom. A person did not borrow any money. A person did not commit any crime. . . and yet they are enslaved. The Bible is *EXPLICITLY AGAINST THE FOURTH TYPE OF SLAVERY* Roz no, only within israel 11:03 AM Conversationalist The first three types of slavery are still practiced to this very day. Roz it had no control about the other nations sneakyflute has entered the room Roz 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. Conversationalist So if you want to understand what you are objecting against. . . the best bet is to ask *how* a person comes to be regarded as property. 11:04 AM Conversationalist But *HOW* does a person *FIRST* come to be regarded as property. Roz no, what I find disgusting is that you cannot directly answer why your god allowed israelites to own other people permanently Conversationalist See? There are four different ways. Roz and this conversation will later be posted in the forums for all to judge and see Conversationalist Its the fourth way that the Bible *explicitly* condemns. And the first three are still practiced even today in modern society. 11:05 AM christophercomplex has left the room Roz 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. Conversationalist Except we don't call it "slavery" anymore. Roz what part of "your slaves are to come from nations around you, from them you may buy slave" sneakyflute hey. how long have you guys been ex-Christians? Roz do you not understand Conversationalist Now we call it "obligatory community service." Or "indentured servitude." Or "bankruptcy." Roz it directly refutes your 'fourth' reason 11:06 AM Conversationalist I'm new Sneaky you? Roz it is for life 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. You can give your slaves to your children and make them slaves for life your god is a slaver sneakyflute I've never been a theist but I've recently become interested in deconversion after reading an article about Jerry Dewitt Conversationalist verse 45 and 46 only presuppose that slaves exist. It doesn't say HOW they became slaves. . . or whether or not the manner in which they became slaves is under category 1, 2, 3, or 4. 11:07 AM Conversationalist HOW you become a slave is the key.\ Is it because of your own volition? Or not? Roz they may become slaves any number of ways, but how does it make it right to OWN them afterwards for life slavery is evil in any respect as a black man, I abhor it Conversationalist If they chose to . . . I think they shouldn't be allowed to. We agree. But some societies disagree. Roz 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. Conversationalist Some societies think you should be allowed to sell your freedom if you want to. Roz the biblical society disagrees with you 11:08 AM Conversationalist I disagree with that. you disagree with that. Roz the israelite society owned slaves for life and you really cannot see it Conversationalist But allowing people to sell their own freedom is common. Roz because you are blinded by your faith why then did god not allow that for israelite to israelite? Conversationalist What's more, is, that slaves were set free every 70 years. Roz 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. 11:09 AM Conversationalist Even though slaves became slaves by their own volition. Roz 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Conversationalist They were still set free. Roz I can see you are not going to answer truthfully this conversation will be posted in the forums thank you for the conversation Conversationalist Yes. There verses show that slavery existed. But HOW (on what basis) did slaves become slaves. thx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Another christian afflicted with cognitive dissonance. Bless his heart. And yes, he offered to buy a black man for 100,000 dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Conversationalist Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 There are four patterns by which a human being (historically) may be treated as property: 1) Voluntary slavery. A person can voluntarily sell their freedom and be treated as a slave 2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court of law until such a time that their "due" is paid back.\ 3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism for example) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor) until such a time as the damages of their crime are paid back. 4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery. This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human." Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor. The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery. The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 There are four patterns by which a human being (historically) may be treated as property: 1) Voluntary slavery. A person can voluntarily sell their freedom and be treated as a slave ---39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. 2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court of law until such a time that their "due" is paid back.\ 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. 3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism for example) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor) until such a time as the damages of their crime are paid back. ---not covered in Lev 25, but ok, sure 4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery. This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human." Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor. --- 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. ---Direct refutation, showing the christian does not believe the bible he holds dear. The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery. ---see above The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society. No answer as to why 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 wow,,,,, justifying salvery,,,, i am impressed,,,, hallelujah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 It should be noted that this classification goes to real estate rights as well: 29 “‘Anyone who sells a house in a walled city retains the right of redemption a full year after its sale. During that time the seller may redeem it. 30 If it is not redeemed before a full year has passed, the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to the buyer and the buyer’s descendants. It is not to be returned in the Jubilee. 31 But houses in villages without walls around them are to be considered as belonging to the open country. They can be redeemed, and they are to be returned in the Jubilee. That specifically states that city houses can be owned permanently, but village houses are to be returned. --- 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God. This passage shows that 'fellow israelites' are not to be permanent slaves. They can return. --- 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Shows that god is a slaver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery. Not true. Don't make us quote verses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 For the record, I post this in order to show that all christians, be they nice or mean, have some level of cognitive dissonance due to their christian indoctrination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery. Not true. Don't make us quote verses. Too late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Conversationalist Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 And theres the rub. Whether or not you assign the explict label of "slave" is really a technicality. Because we don't call people who volunarily sell their freedom "slaves" . . . instead we call them "military." And we don't call people who are in debt up to their necks "slaves". . . instead we call them "nearing bankruptcy." And we don't call people who commit crimes and are then forced to clean up after their own damage "slaves". . . instead we say they are doing "court ordered community service." That label you attach it is just semantics. Slavery is slavery. If someone owns you (a government, a courtroom, or a bank). . . that ownership can be tacit or it can be explicit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Still can't see it, but then again god glasses are a bitch to take off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Conversationalist Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 So. . . release the children but make the parent pay off their debt to society / government / private party? Where should the kids go while the parents pay off what they owe? The reasons for the law is the substance of the law. Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee? For what reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why did your god say that israelites can be freed and non-israelites are for life. 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 There are four patterns by which a human being (historically) may be treated as property: 1) Voluntary slavery. A person can voluntarily sell their freedom and be treated as a slave 2) Economic slavery. A person can borrow money, not pay it back, and then be enslaved by a court of law until such a time that their "due" is paid back.\ 3) Criminal slavery. A person can commit a crime (vandalism for example) at which point they are obliged to do "community service" (forced labor) until such a time as the damages of their crime are paid back. 4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery. This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human." Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor. The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery. The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society. Listen to yourself. You are defending the institution of slavery, which is a system by which one person is permitted to own another, regardless of HOW it happens it is WRONG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 And theres the rub. Whether or not you assign the explict label of "slave" is really a technicality. Because we don't call people who volunarily sell their freedom "slaves" . . . instead we call them "military." And we don't call people who are in debt up to their necks "slaves". . . instead we call them "nearing bankruptcy." And we don't call people who commit crimes and are then forced to clean up after their own damage "slaves". . . instead we say they are doing "court ordered community service." That label you attach it is just semantics. Slavery is slavery. If someone owns you (a government, a courtroom, or a bank). . . that ownership can be tacit or it can be explicit. I am allowed to whip my slave as much as I wish. I am not allowed to whip my solders, my customers and criminals. Not even my employees. Only slaves are property. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee? For what reason? Propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee? For what reason? 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Please stop lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 How does being invaded by a neighboring country and being forced into slavery become "voluntarily selling your freedom"? I just love how the christian tries to re-define the meaning of a word or phrase so they can have a better time defending it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 I am doing this so that somehow Conversationalist can see the cruelty of his religion. He might be a good man, I don't know him in real life. However, it is his religion that makes him believe what he wants to believe, regardless of anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 20, 2014 Moderator Share Posted May 20, 2014 4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery. This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human." Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor. The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery. The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society. Did I miss the chapter and verse supporting this claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Conversationalist Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee? For what reason? Propaganda. Negative my friend. The reason for Jubilee is given in Leviticus 25:17. . . you just weren't looking for the reason. "Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God." That is the reasoning process given for Jubilee. "Jubilee" is the practice of releasing every slave from their debt to society / government / or private party. All three forms of slavery have something to do with the voluntary choices made by the individual. . . nothing to do with their ethnicity. Christian paradigms are responsible for eliminating ethnically based slavery systems. Unfortunately the other three forms of slavery (economic, criminal, voluntary) still exist. But we still hope to be a force to work against these as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee? For what reason? Propaganda. Negative my friend. The reason for Jubilee is given in Leviticus 25:17. . . you just weren't looking for the reason. "Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God." That is the reasoning process given for Jubilee-- the practice of releasing every slave from their debt to society / government / or private party. 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lies upon lies upon lies coming out from the christian's mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee? For what reason? Propaganda. Negative my friend. The reason for Jubilee is given in Leviticus 25:17. . . you just weren't looking for the reason. "Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God." That is the reasoning process given for Jubilee. "Jubilee" is the practice of releasing every slave from their debt to society / government / or private party. All three forms of slavery have something to do with the voluntary choices made by the individual. . . nothing to do with their ethnicity. Christian paradigms are responsible for eliminating ethnically based slavery systems. Unfortunately the other three forms of slavery (economic, criminal, voluntary) exist. So having a slave for 7 years isn't taking advantage? Look at the logical hoops you have to jump through to justify your God's immorality! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 I ask this again: Why did your god say that israelites can be freed and non-israelites are for life. 39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 I hope we're clear that god allowed israelite 'servants' to go free at jubilee, but he allowed foreigners to be 'slaves for life.' Why did he use this classification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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