ironhorse Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 A good explanation on slavery and the Bible: http://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2013/07/slavery-the-bible-and-our-need-for-humility/ Ironhorse, I'd have to go with these guys that the article you posted is very misleading. A few points to consider: In the "cultural context" of ancient Palestine, the Essenes did assert slavery to be morally wrong categorically. As Philo of Alexandria (c.20-c.50 CE) notes, Essenes had “not a single slave among them” and were known to “condemn masters, not only as unjust, inasmuch as they corrupt the very principle of equality, but likewise as impious, because they destroy the ordinances of nature, which generated them all equally.” Why did these non-Christians see what Christians did not? Church father Athenagoras (c.133-190) described slavery as commonplace among early believers, noting simply that Christians “have slaves, some more and some fewer.” Early Christians read NT texts on slavery as you would expect they would have. Freeing a slave was a "good work," but it was not a requirement for good standing in the church or for "holiness" in general. There was a horrible racial element to slavery in the Americas, but slavery is by nature abusive and is just about inextricably connected with manipulation and physical and mental abuse. Whips, chains, and collars were part of slavery in the ancient world as well. Take St. Augustine, who noted that God willed slavery and the abuse that comes with it: "It is clear, then, that sin is the primary cause of servitude, in the sense that social status in which one man is compelled to be subjected to another man. Nor does this befall a man, save by the decree of God who is never unjust and who knows how to impose appropriate punishments on different sinners. … Meanwhile, in case anyone in the home behaves contrary to its peace, he is disciplined by words or whipping or other kinds of punishment lawful and licit in human society, and for his own good, to readjust him to the peace he has abandoned." Christians, in general, have changed their codes of morality over the centuries. Slavery was very often an "unknown sin" to Christians in earlier periods-- but now widely recognized to be an affront to humanity among Christian churches. Was this change due to careful exegesis? I would say it's rather a combination of the inconsistencies in Christian morality (golden rule vs. a lot of other things) plus the growing sense of human rights coming from outside Christianity that affected its moral code. I absolutely love this quote, which references slavery (among other things): “By the unknown sin I do not mean a secret sin … I mean acts which were not known to be sins; acts for which no vocabulary existed to denominate them as sins; acts participated in by upright men and women, by popes and dedicated members of religious orders and canonized saints; acts now regarded with horror as the blackest kind of affront to the human person and among the most serious derelictions of duty to God, whose image is the person.”—John T. Noonan, Catholic historian and federal judge. A last one that you hear knocked about sometimes: “What God sanctioned in the Old Testament, and permitted in the New, cannot be a sin.” Rev. Richard Fuller (1804-1876), American pro-slavery advocate and founding member of the Southern Baptist denomination. The reason that people have read the Bible to allow or condone slavery is because the Bible has texts which allow or condone slavery. The reason why people have thought it was good to beat children is that the Bible has texts that say it's good to beat children. The reason why women have been told that they are inferior is because the Bible has texts that say women shouldn't hold authority over men, should remain quiet, should wear headcoverings, etc. IMO, if you subvert this kind of direct language, you end up with a document that is so unintelligible that there's no reason to have a canon in the first place. Modern exegesis is, IMO, often an attempt to make the Bible a better book than it is. Ironhorse, your morality is better than OT morality. You think stoning is barbaric, don't think children should be slaughtered in war, and don't think people should be burned to death. While the NT has some rather profound spots, your morality is better than many aspects of NT morality. You don't think slaves should obey their masters, I imagine you have much more progressive views on women, etc. And thank goodness for that! I've never asked Ironhorse about this, and I'm interested in what he thinks about it. Ironhorse, what is your view of Paul's views on women as expressed in the NT? What message do you think god was inspiring Paul to say about women? How does that square up against contemporary views of women in society? First, Jesus' example started a progressive move that elevated the role of women in society and religion. He was followed by women who listened to his teachings. Rabbis were not suppose to have females around them. He openly talked to women and welcomed them. It was women who first discovered the empty tomb. The fact that this is recorded in the Gospel narratives is profound because a females testimony was not allowed or recognized. No other religion in the world has done more for the rights of women. If you would like to read why I made that statement: http://www.xenos.org/teachings/?teaching=534 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Uh no. It was Rome that elevated the role of women in society. Rome wanted the matriarchs of the great houses of Rome to have some value. Rome gave them status. That got the ball rolling. Christianity followed the pattern because Christianity was recreated by Rome. Those who read Paul carefully can see that Paul hated women. But even Rome's vision for women was not equality. Not by a long shot. Rome kept women in their place which to Rome was below men. Humans had to figure out on their own that equality is a better system. If it was God's idea then God would have told us in the Old Testament instead of making it look like the Bible was written by chauvinist pigs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Christianity raised the status of women? bwahahahahahaha no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 First, I agree with MM's post, (which may be evidence of the miraculous), Ironhorse you did not answer my questions: I've never asked Ironhorse about this, and I'm interested in what he thinks about it. Ironhorse, what is your view of Paul's views on women as expressed in the NT? What message do you think god was inspiring Paul to say about women? How does that square up against contemporary views of women in society? Your answer: First, Jesus' example started a progressive move that elevated the role of women in society and religion. He was followed by women who listened to his teachings. Rabbis were not suppose to have females around them. He openly talked to women and welcomed them. It was women who first discovered the empty tomb. The fact that this is recorded in the Gospel narratives is profound because a females testimony was not allowed or recognized. No other religion in the world has done more for the rights of women. If you would like to read why I made that statement: http://www.xenos.org...s/?teaching=534 Your link covered some of Paul's views of women, but completely ignored the verses relegating women to the laity, to the inferior marriage partner, and controlling their clothing choices. What is your view on these verses? And what do you think would be god's message that these verses are meant to say? "No other religion in the world has done more for the rights of women" Why then, are women oppressed for all but a few years of the 2000 years xianity has existed? Was xianity a major player in the feminist movement? I don't think so. Xianity has been the driving force behind opposition to feminism, particularly in the US since the 1970s. There are still many churches that teach the oppression of women in the church and in the home, even the "liberal" churches. The Catholic church in particular, which established xianity and led it for 1500 years, and killed a lot of women, and still does not allow women to lead, can hardly be described as doing anything for the rights of women. I was raised in the Salvation Army, which thanks to feminist Catherine Booth, at least has women leaders. But they still believe in those words of Paul, and the still encourage a culture of women's focus being marriage and the home, and if working outside the home, then they value the human services professions, which pay less, and men do most of the preaching, teaching, and leading. Single women leaders are rare, the majority of them are appointed along with their husbands. So, even in the most "equal" of xian denominations, women are not really treated as equals. Please remember to answer my questions about Paul: Your link covered some of Paul's views of women, but completely ignored the verses relegating women to the laity, to the inferior marriage partner, and controlling their clothing choices. What is your view on these verses? And what do you think would be god's message that these verses are meant to say? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereisnoperfect Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 So, Ironhorse has NO reason why that link on slavery was "good." And a cherry-picked position for why christianity is great for women--ignoring minor setbacks like people denying contraception, minimizing rape, justifying abuse, and openly opposing every form of feminism. Yeah, he's going to bring us all back to christianity in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 of course the bible treats woman in general well,,,, please read in context,,,, if a girl gets rape in context, all the rapist do is to pay money and marry her,,,,,,,, and if she does not scream,,,, well thats another matter,,,,,,, slavery in context is good,,,,,, because the fucking bible says so, and christians like ironhorse trying to justify, or divert your attention of that evil book,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Jesus was non-bigotted in his judgment.. he included everyone. Paul however, was definitely a misogynist. I don't think he had much luck with the ladies. http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Paul-Women-Jon-Zens/dp/0976522292 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 yes,,, even today,,,,, anglicians and catholics do not have woman bishops blah blah blah even today,,,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubtingNate Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Why did the status of women need to be elevated in the first place? Societies that predate monotheism were more matriarchal and often centered on goddess worship. In the sweep of human history, misogyny and the subjugation of women is much more recent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted May 23, 2014 Author Share Posted May 23, 2014 All christians believe that jesus was the same god as the OT god, so I'll take them at their word and call out jesus as a sexist asshole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Why did the status of women need to be elevated in the first place? Societies that predate monotheism were more matriarchal and often centered on goddess worship. In the sweep of human history, misogyny and the subjugation of women is much more recent. You're right, but your point will be completely lost on IH because he doesn't trust historical evidence. He thinks the crusades never happened, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubtingNate Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Yeah, I'm used to ih now.. It's all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Ironhorse, I think FreethinkerNZ hit the nail on the head here. Are there some verses in the New Testament that talk in high terms of women? Yes. Can an argument be made that certain teachings in the New Testament were progressive regarding women for its time? Yes. What I think you're doing is what I mentioned earlier-- you're taking the good parts of New Testament morality, ignoring the bad parts, and so have formed a morality that is better than the New Testament. Why didn't your article mention that Jesus chose males for all 12 apostles? Why are men the only teachers in the church? Why didn't that little article mention these gems of women's liberation? 1 Tim 2:11-15 Be submissive, women have been the start of evil, women will be saved through childbearing Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. Eph 5:22-24-- Women are to obey husbands "in everything" -- like they would obey a heavenly monarch Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands. Col. 3:18-23-- Women are to be submissive much like slaves and children Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and never treat them harshly. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this is your acceptable duty in the Lord. Fathers, do not provoke your children, or they may lose heart. Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted May 23, 2014 As I said back in Post #98: Christians! Stop being pussies and own up to what your book actually says. Believe the story or don't, but don't tell me that shit's not in there. Obviously, Christianity has the ability to impair one's reading comprehension. It also seems to erase all memory of history class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Why did the status of women need to be elevated in the first place? Societies that predate monotheism were more matriarchal and often centered on goddess worship. In the sweep of human history, misogyny and the subjugation of women is much more recent. Wicca and paganism in general has probably done more to promote women than Christianity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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