Slavery Part Deux

[Fernweh]

Deuteronomical law instructs that every Israelite and foreigner is to freed during the year of Jubilee.

 

Whether their reason for enslavement is economical mismanagement, criminal, or voluntary in nature.   All are to be set free.  Again, this is a crystal clear picture of the gospel.  We enslave ourselves as a result of our choices (not our race).  And the mandate is categorical freedom for all.

 

FIFY

[Roz]

From http://rationalwiki....ry_in_the_Bible

 

Male Hebrew slaves

From Exodus 21:2:

It is interesting to note that if a slave wishes to remain with his wife and family he must submit to his master for life.“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the door-post and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

On the other hand Hebrew slaves - and only those Hebrew slaves who entered slavery "voluntarily" - got some severance package as described in Deuteronomy 15:12:

If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free. And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the Lord your God has blessed you. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

 

[edit] Female Hebrew slaves

Female Hebrew slaves were to be treated differently from males. Parents could sell their daughters into slavery. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

[edit] Non-Hebrew Slaves

 

If the Israelites wanted full slaves they were instructed in Leviticus 25:

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

 

Onward christian soldier, because lying for jesus makes it right... somehow.

[Guest Conversationalist]

 

 

Almost forgot, the beating of slaves! (courtesy of the rationalwiki and the bible)

 

Beating slaves

Beating slaves was perfectly allowable under the following rules:

(Exodus 21:20-21 ESV) When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

(Exodus 21:26-27 ESV) When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

 

Again, the reasons for the law is the substance of the law.  The reason for this law is, obviously, to set absolute limits on the amount of power a bank, or a government, or a private party may exercise over a person that has voluntarily enslaved themselves.

 

That's the point of laws: they don't create moral people, they can only set limits on the evil that they would otherwise engage in.   That's why black and white laws are insufficient to govern our behavior as human beings.

 

 

 

You have been shown the Bible verses that make it clear that Jewish men were allowed to buy slaves from foreign nations and such slaves were property forever.  If the master died the slave would become the property of the heir.

 

 

You have seen these verses so you are not ignorant of them.  The Bible does not condemn ethnic or involuntary slavery.  The Bible embraces it.

 

 

We actually agree here.  I have seen those verses.

 

But you have also seen the verses whereby the conditions of their original enslavement were outlined (economic mismanagement, criminal, and voluntary).

 

And you've also seen the verses whereby the unconditional freedom of every Israelite and foreigner is granted in the year of Jubilee.

[Roz]

So, if you hold a Hebrew man's wife and kids ransom, and he says "master I love you" then you've essentially got a Hebrew male slave for life.

 

Your Hebrew female sex slave doesn't get Jubilee, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.

 

Your non-Hebrew slave is for life:  You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

[Orbit]

Based on Conversationalist's arguments, I conclude that God is immoral and his followers are dishonest.

[Roz]

Based on Conversationalist's arguments, I conclude that God is immoral and his followers are dishonest.

 

Yes, and they keep wanting to have these 'conversations' to appear as though they're rational.

[mymistake]

 

We actually agree here.  I have seen those verses.

 

But you have also seen the verses whereby the conditions of their original enslavement were outlined (economic mismanagement, criminal, and voluntary).

 

And you've also seen the verses whereby the unconditional freedom of every Israelite and foreigner is granted in the year of Jubilee.

 

 

Wrong.  You ignore the facts that are contrary to your view.

[Roz]

 

 

We actually agree here.  I have seen those verses.

 

But you have also seen the verses whereby the conditions of their original enslavement were outlined (economic mismanagement, criminal, and voluntary).

 

And you've also seen the verses whereby the unconditional freedom of every Israelite and foreigner is granted in the year of Jubilee.

 

 

Wrong.  You ignore the facts that are contrary to your view.

 

 

Next I think he will try to excuse the 'ordained' rape that he god commanded.

[Guest Conversationalist]

So, if you hold a Hebrew man's wife and kids ransom, and he says "master I love you" then you've essentially got a Hebrew male slave for life.

 

Your Hebrew female sex slave doesn't get Jubilee, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.

 

Your non-Hebrew slave is for life:  You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

 

 

The reasons for the law is the substance of the law.

 

In other words, why do you think it was that way?  I mean think about it sincerely.  You can't hold a man to the debt to which he is enslaved whilst releasing his wife and children. . .  where are they going to go in 1200 B.C.?

The reasons for the law is the substance of the law.

 

So you have to come up with a solution.  It's one thing to be offended. . . but what would you do instead?  Make every slave free? That's what Jubilee is!   

 

Would you set free the child but not the parent?  Where is the child gonna go?   

 

[Orbit]

 

So, if you hold a Hebrew man's wife and kids ransom, and he says "master I love you" then you've essentially got a Hebrew male slave for life.

 

Your Hebrew female sex slave doesn't get Jubilee, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.

 

Your non-Hebrew slave is for life:  You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

 

 

The reasons for the law is the substance of the law.

 

In other words, why do you think it was that way?  I mean think about it sincerely.  You can't hold a man to the debt to which he is enslaved whilst releasing his wife and children. . .  where are they going to go in 1200 B.C.?

The reasons for the law is the substance of the law.

 

So you have to come up with a solution.  It's one thing to be offended. . . but what would you do instead?  Make every slave free? That's what Jubilee is!  

 

Would you set free the child but not the parent?  Where is the child gonna go?   

 

 

Translation: The Bible is the true word of God except when I say it's not.

[Aggie]

Roz, what a great thread.

 

I think we've missed that other great point of biblical slavery-- that beating slaves is OK as long as they don't die immediately:

"When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished.  ²¹But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property" (Ex 21:20-21).

 

Of course, this is a fair law because God made it!  Jesus himself used great analogies with slavery:

• “That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating” (Lk 12:47).
• In the Matthew’s Parable of the Unforgiving Servant, the “wicked slave” was “handed over to be tortured” (Mt 18:23-35).  God is portrayed as just as stern as the story’s brutal slaveholder: “my heavenly Father will also do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”   Forgive or I'll never forgive you!  Be holy like me!

And remember, the beating of children with rods is good too! Prov 13:24, Prov 22:15, Prov 23:13-14, Prov 29:15.  

 

Make sure to follow this 7-part exegetical model as well:

 

(1) You are very imperfect and have poor judgment when it comes to spiritual matters.

(2) You must judge the Bible to be perfect using your poor judgment.

(3) When the Bible seems very imperfect, that is just your poor judgment showing.

(4) Even though you have poor judgment, always equate your own beliefs about what the Bible is to God's perfection.

(5) Your imperfect reason and logic aren't affected when defending the Bible's perfection.

(6) Despite your poor judgment, you have the infallible ability to recognize what books are in the Bible.

(7) Repeat.

[centauri]

 

4) Involuntary / ethnic slavery.  This is slavery in which a human being is treated as property for no other reason than that their ethnicity is somehow viewed as "sub-human."

Being the wrong race means being kidnapped, and sentenced to forced labor.

 

The bible explicitly condemns the 4th category of slavery.  The first three categories are still in practice today. . . even in modern society.

The Bible commands this type of slavery.

 

Deut 20:10-13,15-16(NIV)

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.

 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city.

 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it.

This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

 

Nations not on the kill list were to be given the choice of slavery or death.

The sub-human nations were to be exterminated.

 

Slave labor was used to build the Temple of God, and God had no problem with this.

 

2 Chron 7-8(NIV)

There were still people left from the Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (these people were not Israelites). 

Solomon conscripted the descendants of all these people remaining in the land—whom the Israelites had not destroyed—to serve as slave labor, as it is to this day.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I've got a question for you, Conversationalist. How can it be that the Israelites were permitted to own non-Israelite people as slaves for life, but were also required to release all slaves at the year of Jubilee (which, you seem to think includes the non-Israelite slaves). Those two statements can't both be true, can they? 

[buffettphan]

I have a question for you too, Conversationalist SteveBennet. (Yes we know who you are.)  What is your obsession with this website?  Do you need some support in coming to terms with your own deconversion?

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I have a question for you too, Conversationalist SteveBennet. (Yes we know who you are.)  What is your obsession with this website?  Do you need some support in coming to terms with your own deconversion?

 

How are you certain that he is SteveBennett? Did you track his IP address or something?

[buffettphan]

 

I have a question for you too, Conversationalist SteveBennet. (Yes we know who you are.)  What is your obsession with this website?  Do you need some support in coming to terms with your own deconversion?

 

How are you certain that he is SteveBennett? Did you track his IP address or something?

 

 

"Or something"  

 

 Sorry-- I don't know how much I can/should disclose.  

[RipVanWinkle]

Roz: This is a perfect example of the way Xtians misinterpret any bible verse that is no supopotive of

their preexisting belief. It is a classic. GREAT JOB! bill

[Aggie]

All this really reminds of this nonstampcollector classic on slavery.  Some of it seems about spot on for this discussion!

 

Worth a look if you've never seen it:

 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

All this really reminds of this nonstampcollector classic on slavery.  Some of it seems about spot on for this discussion!

 

Worth a look if you've never seen it:

 

 

Definitely. The angels sound like the ex-Cs in this thread and Yahweh sounds like Conversationalist. Very amusing.

[buffettphan]

 

 

I have a question for you too, Conversationalist SteveBennet. (Yes we know who you are.)  What is your obsession with this website?  Do you need some support in coming to terms with your own deconversion?

 

How are you certain that he is SteveBennett? Did you track his IP address or something?

 

 

"Or something"  

 

 Sorry-- I don't know how much I can/should disclose.  

 

 

He's been booted. Again.  Should we have a pool on when his next reincarnation will be?  lol

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

I have a question for you too, Conversationalist SteveBennet. (Yes we know who you are.)  What is your obsession with this website?  Do you need some support in coming to terms with your own deconversion?

 

How are you certain that he is SteveBennett? Did you track his IP address or something?

 

 

"Or something"  

 

 Sorry-- I don't know how much I can/should disclose.  

 

 

He's been booted. Again.  Should we have a pool on when his next reincarnation will be?  lol

 

 

Aw, before he had a chance to answer my question? I didn't even get a special PM from him either... So sad...

[bornagainathiest]

Well, in case you're lurking Steve, here's a Bible quote for you.

 

Matthew 10:14

14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

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And a non-Biblical one for you.

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

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Till the next time!   

 

[buffettphan]

 

 

 

 

I have a question for you too, Conversationalist SteveBennet. (Yes we know who you are.)  What is your obsession with this website?  Do you need some support in coming to terms with your own deconversion?

 

How are you certain that he is SteveBennett? Did you track his IP address or something?

 

 

"Or something"  

 

 Sorry-- I don't know how much I can/should disclose.  

 

 

He's been booted. Again.  Should we have a pool on when his next reincarnation will be?  lol

 

 

Aw, before he had a chance to answer my question? I didn't even get a special PM from him either... So sad...

 

 

Changing your picture to a young, hot looking female might increase your odds of getting that special PM next time he's around.    (Not that I'm recommending that! lol)

[Fernweh]

The writing style and over the top smugness is too easy. He did try to tone it down a bit this time but I don't think he can help himself.

[Overcame Faith]

We have ways of identifying those like Mr. Bennett. Besides being obsessed with ExC for some oddball reason, he is nowhere near as smart as he obviously believes himself to be.