Slavery Part Deux

[Orbit]

As a former Christian I am offended by you, Conversationalist. Your immorality gives Christianity a bad name. Even when I was a Christian I would be appalled by your reasoning.

[Guest Conversationalist]

I ask this again:

 

Why did your god say that israelites can be freed and non-israelites are for life. 

 

³⁹ “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. ⁴⁰ They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.

 

⁴⁴ “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. ⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

⁴⁶ You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

 

There is no such thing as a "slave for life" iunder Dueteronomical law unless a person *asks* to remain a slave.  The entire point of Jubilee was to break the inevitable cycle of slavery that human nature brings into society.

 

Every enslaved person. . . be they enslaved as a result of bad economic choices, criminal activity, or deliberate & conscious voluntary decision was to be set free.

 

That's what Jubilee is.  It's another picture of the gospel.

[Roz]

I guess he doesn't understand "Slaves for life"

 

Earlier in the chapter:

 

²⁹ “‘Anyone who sells a house in a walled city retains the right of redemption a full year after its sale. During that time the seller may redeem it. ³⁰ If it is not redeemed before a full year has passed, the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to the buyer and the buyer’s descendants. It is not to be returned in the Jubilee. ³¹ But houses in villages without walls around them are to be considered as belonging to the open country. They can be redeemed, and they are to be returned in the Jubilee.

 

Christians are OK with houses in walled cities being 'permanent' property.  Country houses must be returned in the jubilee year.

 

Yet they cannot understand:

 

³⁹ “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. ⁴⁰ They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.

 

⁴⁴ “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. ⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

⁴⁶ You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

[Orbit]

 

I ask this again:

 

Why did your god say that israelites can be freed and non-israelites are for life. 

 

³⁹ “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. ⁴⁰ They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.

 

⁴⁴ “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. ⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

⁴⁶ You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

 

There is no such thing as a "slave for life" in the Old Testament unless a person *asks* to remain a slave.  The entire point of Jubilee was to break the inevitable cycle of slavery that human nature brings into society.

 

Every enslaved person. . . be they enslaved as a result of bad economic choices, criminal activity, or deliberate & conscious voluntary decision was to be set free.

 

That's what Jubilee is.  It's another picture of the gospel.

 

What part of verse 46 don't you understand. Try reading the Bible.

[mymistake]

 

 

Why do you think every slave (regardless of why they were enslaved in the first place) was released during the year of Jubilee?  For what reason?

 

 

Propaganda.  

 

 

Negative my friend.  The reason for Jubilee is given in Leviticus 25:17. . . you just weren't looking for the reason. 

 

"Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God."

 

That is the reasoning process given for Jubilee.  "Jubilee" is the practice of releasing every slave from their debt to society / government /  or private party.  All three forms of slavery have something to do with the voluntary choices made by the individual. . . nothing to do with their ethnicity.

 

Christian paradigms are responsible for eliminating ethnically based slavery systems.  Unfortunately the other three forms of slavery (economic, criminal, voluntary) still exist.

 

But we still hope to be a force to work against these as well!

 

 

Leviticus was created for propaganda.  What do you call fear of something that does not exist?  And what do you call it when this fear is used to politically control a population?

 

By the way Year of Jubilee was only for Jewish slaves.  It did not apply for gentile slaves - purchased or prisoners of war.  Yes Christians were involved in 1860's when slavery ended in the United States.  Too bad they didn't end slavery one thousand, eight hundred years earlier.  Or better yet slavery could have been mentioned in the ten commandments and ended sooner.  But the men who wrote the Bible didn't want to end slavery.

[Orbit]

Let me ask you this simple question, Conversationalist: Is slavery wrong?

[Guest Conversationalist]

If a person *wants* to remain a slave for life they are still allowed to.

 

The point, or the *reason*, for Jubilee is to release the bonds of every single category of slavery.  But if a person doesn't want those bonds released, they are still allowed to remain a slave of their own volition (even until the day they die if they so freely choose).

[Roz]

If a person *wants* to remain a slave for life they are still allowed to.

 

The point, or the *reason*, for Jubilee is to release the bonds of every single category of slavery.  But if a person doesn't want those bonds released, they are still allowed to remain a slave for life of their own volition.

 

⁴⁴ “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. ⁴⁵ You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

⁴⁶ You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

 

Nowhere in this verse or chapter in your own book supports your reasoning

[Orbit]

If a person *wants* to remain a slave for life they are still allowed to.

 

The point, or the *reason*, for Jubilee is to release the bonds of every single category of slavery.  But if a person doesn't want those bonds released, they are still allowed to remain a slave for life of their own volition.

IS SLAVERY WRONG? OR IS IT RIGHT? WHAT DO YOU THINK??

[mymistake]

The Bible doesn't really mean what it says when it says bad stuff.  The Bible only means what it says for the good stuff.

[pratt]

it is justifiable to keep slaves till jubliee year,,,,,,, yah,,,,,,

 

you can bash the slaves as long as they don't die the same day,,,,,, yah,,,,,,,

[Roz]

From http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Bible

 

Male Hebrew slaves

From Exodus 21:2:

It is interesting to note that if a slave wishes to remain with his wife and family he must submit to his master for life.“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the door-post and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

On the other hand Hebrew slaves - and only those Hebrew slaves who entered slavery "voluntarily" - got some severance package as described in Deuteronomy 15:12:

If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free. And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the Lord your God has blessed you. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

[edit] Female Hebrew slaves

Female Hebrew slaves were to be treated differently from males. Parents could sell their daughters into slavery. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

[edit] Non-Hebrew Slaves

If the Israelites wanted full slaves they were instructed in Leviticus 25:

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

[Roz]

Almost forgot, the beating of slaves! (courtesy of the rationalwiki and the bible)

 

Beating slaves

Beating slaves was perfectly allowable under the following rules:

(Exodus 21:20-21 ESV) When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

(Exodus 21:26-27 ESV) When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

[Guest Conversationalist]

 

If a person *wants* to remain a slave for life they are still allowed to.

 

The point, or the *reason*, for Jubilee is to release the bonds of every single category of slavery.  But if a person doesn't want those bonds released, they are still allowed to remain a slave for life of their own volition.

IS SLAVERY WRONG? OR IS IT RIGHT? WHAT DO YOU THINK??

 

 

Again, it comes down to definition of terms.  If we define slavery as the act of treating another person as property the issue becomes *how* did they come to be regarded as property?

 

When a court orders a person peform "court ordered community service" that is tacit slavery.  Is this acceptable?  Or not?  When an enlisted military signs away his rights as a citizen, and can be forced to charge a machine gun bunker under threat of a court martial. . . . that is tacit slavery.  Is this acceptable?  Or not?  When a man borrows money, and doesn't pay it back, and is then forced to do things to pay back the debt that he otherwise wouldn't do. . . that is tacit slavery.  Is this acceptable?  Or not?

 

See the explict label of "property" is just nomenclature.  You can call a man a slave while he is tacitly forced to do things. . . or you can call him "free."

 

Slavery based on ethnic identity. . . kidnapping a person from his home and putting him in chains for sake of your own personal profit. . . this the bible explicitly condemns. 

 

So the real question is "which of the four forms of slavery do you condemn?"  And are we, personally, consistent with that view?

[Orbit]

 

 

If a person *wants* to remain a slave for life they are still allowed to.

 

The point, or the *reason*, for Jubilee is to release the bonds of every single category of slavery.  But if a person doesn't want those bonds released, they are still allowed to remain a slave for life of their own volition.

IS SLAVERY WRONG? OR IS IT RIGHT? WHAT DO YOU THINK??

 

 

Again, it comes down to definition of terms.  If we define slavery as the act of treating another person as property the issue becomes *how* did they come to be regarded as property?

 

When a court orders a person peform "court ordered community service" that is tacit slavery.  Is this acceptable?  Or not?  When an enlisted military signs away his rights as a citizen, and can be forced to charge a machine gun bunker under threat of a court martial. . . . that is tacit slavery.  Is this acceptable?  Or not?  When a man borrows money, and doesn't pay it back, and is then forced to do things to pay back the debt that he otherwise wouldn't do. . . that is tacit slavery.  Is this acceptable?  Or not?

 

See the explict label of "property" is just nomenclature.  You can call a man a slave while he is tacitly forced to do things. . . or you can call him "free."

 

Slavery based on ethnic identity. . . kidnapping a person from his home and putting him in chains for sake of your own personal profit. . . this the bible explicitly condemns. 

 

So the real question is "which of the four forms of slavery do you condemn?"  And are we, personally, consistent with that view?

 

Slavery is defined very simply. It is owning another person as property. I ask again: Is this system wrong, or is it right?

[Roz]

Thanks for your comments, Steve Bennett.  You've proven that you do not believe in what your holy book point blank says.  You've proven that you make up your own reasoning just like atheists do, but yet you claim that your book says is what it does not say it at all.

 

This is the cognitive dissonance that we speak of, and it's the thing that clouds your own reasoning.

[Guest Conversationalist]

Almost forgot, the beating of slaves! (courtesy of the rationalwiki and the bible)

 

Beating slaves

Beating slaves was perfectly allowable under the following rules:

(Exodus 21:20-21 ESV) When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

(Exodus 21:26-27 ESV) When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

 

Again, the reasons for the law is the substance of the law.  The reason for this law is, obviously, to set absolute limits on the amount of power a bank, or a government, or a private party may exercise over a person that has voluntarily enslaved themselves.

 

That's the point of laws: they don't create moral people, they can only set limits on the evil that they would otherwise engage in.   That's why black and white laws are insufficient to govern our behavior as human beings.

[Roz]

Only male hebrews were allowed jubilee, female hebrews were sex slaves, non-hebrews were slaves for life.  I know you cannot see it, but I hope the internet lurkers can and that those wanting to take off their god glasses can find comfort in these exchanges.

[Guest Conversationalist]

Thanks for your comments, Steve Bennett.  You've proven that you do not believe in what your holy book point blank says.  You've proven that you make up your own reasoning just like atheists do, but yet you claim that your book says is what it does not say it at all.

 

This is the cognitive dissonance that we speak of, and it's the thing that clouds your own reasoning.

 

Well we can at least agree to disagree.  I would, personally, try to incorporate the author's original understanding of key words. . . rather than attempt to apply my own modern understanding to key words.

 

I think that's the only fair way to try and understand an author's original meaning.

[Roz]

 

Almost forgot, the beating of slaves! (courtesy of the rationalwiki and the bible)

 

Beating slaves

Beating slaves was perfectly allowable under the following rules:

(Exodus 21:20-21 ESV) When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

(Exodus 21:26-27 ESV) When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

 

Again, the reasons for the law is the substance of the law.  The reason for this law is, obviously, to set absolute limits on the amount of power a bank, or a government, or a private party may exercise over a person that has voluntarily enslaved themselves.

 

That's the point of laws: they don't create moral people, they can only set limits on the evil that they would otherwise engage in.   That's why black and white laws are insufficient to govern our behavior as human beings.

 

 

Now the christian is excusing the physical beating of slaves to the point that they 'survive a day or two.'

 

First you say to me, a descendant of slaves, "can I buy you for 100,000 dollars."  Then you actively lie and dodge to somehow justify in your mind your god's laws.  Now you're excusing the beating of human beings by human beings.

 

If only you can see that your character is showing by these examples.

[Orbit]

And still you dodge the simple question: is slavery wrong?

[Roz]

 

Thanks for your comments, Steve Bennett.  You've proven that you do not believe in what your holy book point blank says.  You've proven that you make up your own reasoning just like atheists do, but yet you claim that your book says is what it does not say it at all.

 

This is the cognitive dissonance that we speak of, and it's the thing that clouds your own reasoning.

 

Well we can at least agree to disagree.  I would, personally, try to incorporate the author's original understanding of key words. . . rather than attempt to apply my own modern understanding to key words.

 

I think that's the only fair way to try and understand an author's original meaning.

 

 

And thank you for pointing that you are indeed Steve Bennett

[Orbit]

Well. That was invigorating. Next!

[mymistake]

 

Almost forgot, the beating of slaves! (courtesy of the rationalwiki and the bible)

 

Beating slaves

Beating slaves was perfectly allowable under the following rules:

(Exodus 21:20-21 ESV) When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

(Exodus 21:26-27 ESV) When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

 

Again, the reasons for the law is the substance of the law.  The reason for this law is, obviously, to set absolute limits on the amount of power a bank, or a government, or a private party may exercise over a person that has voluntarily enslaved themselves.

 

That's the point of laws: they don't create moral people, they can only set limits on the evil that they would otherwise engage in.   That's why black and white laws are insufficient to govern our behavior as human beings.

 

 

 

You have been shown the Bible verses that make it clear that Jewish men were allowed to buy slaves from foreign nations and such slaves were property forever.  If the master died the slave would become the property of the heir.

 

 

You have seen these verses so you are not ignorant of them.  The Bible does not condemn ethnic or involuntary slavery.  The Bible embraces it.

[Guest Conversationalist]

Deuteronomical law instructs that every Israelite and foreigner is to freed during the year of Jubilee.

 

Whether their reason for enslavement is economical mismanagement, criminal, or voluntary in nature.  All are to be set free.  Again, this is a crystal clear picture of the gospel.  We enslave ourselves as a result of our choices (not our race).  And the mandate is categorical freedom for all.