The Minds Of Children

[ironhorse]

And IH ducks yet again.  Christians I tell you, if Bin Laden were christian, he would still be alive thanks to his superior dodging skills.

 

You posted this seven minutes after you asked me the question.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

And IH ducks yet again.  Christians I tell you, if Bin Laden were christian, he would still be alive thanks to his superior dodging skills.

 

You posted this seven minutes after you asked me the question.

 

 

Hey, IH, I gave you an up-vote, what do you know?

 

Lol, seriously Roz, why ask someone a question and then accuse them of ducking away a few minutes later? Sure, he may dodge the question eventually, it's his MO, but why not actually give him a chance to come up with a decent answer to this one and see if he'll dodge later on?

[Roz]

He hasn't answered the question yet

[Roz]

And the question "why are you more credible than (some other christian)" has been asked of IH days if not weeks ago.  He still hasn't answered why he's:  more credible than Ellen White, Joseph Smith, us when we were christians, etc."

 

It's the same question posted to Thumbelina, and she ducked out of it with IH like finesse.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

And the question "why are you more credible than (some other christian)" has been asked of IH days if not weeks ago.  He still hasn't answered why he's:  more credible than Ellen White, Joseph Smith, us when we were christians, etc."

 

It's the same question posted to Thumbelina, and she ducked out of it with IH like finesse.

 

Eh, I should be hanging around in the Den a little more often I guess.

[Roz]

So far IH has bounced around threads and still has not answered the question why he's any more credible than Becky Fisher.

[ironhorse]

Why are you more credible than Becky Fisher

 

First, her view on speaking in tongues.

 

In Acts 2 the miracle was that all present heard the Gospel in

their own language. Tongues is not some second act of salvation or

some super Holy Ghost shot. 

[Roz]

So your proof of why you're any more credible than Becky Fisher is the same bible she uses in her credibility.

 

Got it...

 

[mymistake]

 

You have not told us why you're any more credible than other christians.  GIve us empirical proof why they are wrong and you are right.

 

Simple question. 

 

 

Name a teaching or person and I will give a reply.

 

 

 

The guy who calls himself Ironhorse.

[ironhorse]

So your proof of why you're any more credible than Becky Fisher is the same bible she uses in her credibility.

 

Got it...

 

 

 

And this is a discussion on speaking in tongues? 

[Roz]

You have not told us why you're any more credible than other christians.  GIve us empirical proof why they are wrong and you are right.

 

Simple question. 

 

 

And this is a discussion on speaking in tongues? 

 

 

This was not a discussion in speaking in tongues.  My question was why are you more credible than Becky Fisher.  And "give empirical proof"

 

I believe I've said that nearly 2 hours before you responded.

[ironhorse]

 

You have not told us why you're any more credible than other christians.  GIve us empirical proof why they are wrong and you are right.

 

Simple question. 

 

 

And this is a discussion on speaking in tongues? 

 

 

This was not a discussion in speaking in tongues.  My question was why are you more credible than Becky Fisher.  And "give empirical proof"

 

I believe I've said that nearly 2 hours before you responded.

 

 

 

You asked me about Fisher and why I thought she was a false teacher.

I posted an answer.

[Roz]

My question was:

You have not told us why you're any more credible than other christians.  GIve us empirical proof why they are wrong and you are right.

 

Your answer failed to meet any empirical proof.

[midniterider]

Descartes even claimed that God had created the laws of logic and mathematics, maintaining that the equation 2 + 2 = 4 was true only because God had so willed it.

 

Is that in the book of Numbers? :-)

[Guest afireinside]

 

Descartes even claimed that God had created the laws of logic and mathematics, maintaining that the equation 2 + 2 = 4 was true only because God had so willed it.

Is that in the book of Numbers? :-)

Bahahahaha

[bornagainathiest]

So instead of a history of science and how Christianity actually helped advanced the rise

of science, the video goes to Jesus Camp. And I agree...that was sad to watch.

 

Jesus Camps are led by the wonderful Becky Fischer.  A Pentecostal children's pastor. Her group believes in the existence of present-day apostles and prophets. Her ministry also sticks to several Pentecostal traditions and teachings such as promoting speaking in tongues, spiritual warfare, healing the sick, prophecy, raising of the dead, and exorcism from demonic possession.

 

Everything I view, according to the scriptures, as false teachings. 

 

Ignoring the answer I gave to about Copernicus is another example of your grace-less and selfish behavior, IH.

 

Christianity did not help the rise of science in his case, even though you claim it did.

 

I responded to your claim and you haven't replied to me.

 

Until you respond, your claim... that Christianity advanced the rise of science... should be treated as an unfounded assertion.

 

Get back to me on this, here...http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62720-no-shit-sherlock/page-23#.U65_ovldVzM post # 443

[Ravenstar]

http://www.nobeliefs.com/comments10.htm

 

excerpt:

 

"From its very beginning, the Church has served as a stumbling block against scientific progress. By the time Theodosius proclaimed Nicene Christianity a state religion in 380 CE, progressive science had already stopped. Richard Carrier (through personal correspondence) puts it this way: "Even pagans, though cherishing their scientific heritage (unlike Christians who generally did not), and applying that heritage more avidly than their Christian peers, appear to have given up on advancing science. And then pagans slowly died out, leaving only Christians who were even less interested in such advancement or how to achieve it." Up until this time, Greek and Roman science and medicine stood at the pinnacle of reasoned thought. Although the Christians conserved their own biblical and religious exegesis, they did little to conserve pagan scientific writings to the same degree. The little that the Christians did save just barely survived. As Kenneth Clark wrote, "What with prejudice and destruction, it's surprising that the literature of pre-Christian antiquity was preserved at all. And in fact it only just squeaked through. In so far as we are the heirs of Greece and Rome, we got through by the skin of our teeth." We owe the real foundations of science to the ancient Greeks and Romans, not to the Christians.

 

A Christian mob murdered the mathematician and philosophy teacher, Hypatia, in 415 CE. I use this date to mark the beginning of the scientific Dark Ages, and its end at the beginning of the Renaissance in the 14th century because of the almost total lack of progressive science done during this period (most scholars today refer to the Dark Ages as the Early Middle Ages. See notes below). Hypatia's death serves as a convenient marking point, not because she died as the last pagan (pagan persecution lasted for centuries after) but because she lived as the last non-Christian of any merit that would teach science in the Western Christian world. Moreover, around this time, the Western Empire had begun to die. The Renaissance marks the approximate time when science began its catch-up with the ancient pagans.

 

As John Romer wrote in Testament, "As the Western Empire died, it left behind it empty cities with marble ruins lying like great skeletons, at their centres. Slowly the population was transformed into separate and modest nations of small farms and savage armies. There was little international trade and almost total illiteracy." Although Christianity did not cause the fall of the Roman Empire, its reliance on religion did little to improve conditions necessary for free scientific inquiry."

[midniterider]

And the question "why are you more credible than (some other christian)" has been asked of IH days if not weeks ago.  He still hasn't answered why he's:  more credible than Ellen White, Joseph Smith, us when we were christians, etc."

 

It's the same question posted to Thumbelina, and she ducked out of it with IH like finesse.

 

IH has the true understanding of Christianity because he speaks directly to Jesus.

Becky Fisher has a true understanding of Christianity because she speaks directly to Jesus. Both of them think they have a relationship with Jesus but get different interpretations of truth and IH feels that Becky is a false prophet.

 

Becky prays to IH's Jesus but IH gets a different message than Becky when he prays to Jesus. A conflicting message that IH doesn't agree with.  WTF? It's almost like both Becky and IH are getting information from their own heads instead of the Jesus, who is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever.

 

Do Christians ever think past their own personal 'correct' convictions.... considering how illogical and silly it appears when they assert that their version of faith must be right, but their supposed Christian brother who prays to the same God gets false information? lol.

 

Is there a youtube video of a roundtable theology discussion between members of different denominations?  Would be fun to watch.

[ironhorse]

 

And the question "why are you more credible than (some other christian)" has been asked of IH days if not weeks ago.  He still hasn't answered why he's:  more credible than Ellen White, Joseph Smith, us when we were christians, etc."

 

It's the same question posted to Thumbelina, and she ducked out of it with IH like finesse.

 

IH has the true understanding of Christianity because he speaks directly to Jesus.

Becky Fisher has a true understanding of Christianity because she speaks directly to Jesus. Both of them think they have a relationship with Jesus but get different interpretations of truth and IH feels that Becky is a false prophet.

 

Becky prays to IH's Jesus but IH gets a different message than Becky when he prays to Jesus. A conflicting message that IH doesn't agree with.  WTF? It's almost like both Becky and IH are getting information from their own heads instead of the Jesus, who is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever.

 

Do Christians ever think past their own personal 'correct' convictions.... considering how illogical and silly it appears when they assert that their version of faith must be right, but their supposed Christian brother who prays to the same God gets false information? lol.

 

Is there a youtube video of a roundtable theology discussion between members of different denominations?  Would be fun to watch.

 

 

 

I don't know where you get the idea that by just praying to Jesus a person

gets direct information from God.

 

The scriptures tells us to study...to search the scriptures...to think...

and to beware of those who twist scripture into their own schemes.

[WarriorPoet]

 

 

And the question "why are you more credible than (some other christian)" has been asked of IH days if not weeks ago.  He still hasn't answered why he's:  more credible than Ellen White, Joseph Smith, us when we were christians, etc."

 

It's the same question posted to Thumbelina, and she ducked out of it with IH like finesse.

 

IH has the true understanding of Christianity because he speaks directly to Jesus.

Becky Fisher has a true understanding of Christianity because she speaks directly to Jesus. Both of them think they have a relationship with Jesus but get different interpretations of truth and IH feels that Becky is a false prophet.

 

Becky prays to IH's Jesus but IH gets a different message than Becky when he prays to Jesus. A conflicting message that IH doesn't agree with.  WTF? It's almost like both Becky and IH are getting information from their own heads instead of the Jesus, who is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever.

 

Do Christians ever think past their own personal 'correct' convictions.... considering how illogical and silly it appears when they assert that their version of faith must be right, but their supposed Christian brother who prays to the same God gets false information? lol.

 

Is there a youtube video of a roundtable theology discussion between members of different denominations?  Would be fun to watch.

 

 

 

I don't know where you get the idea that by just praying to Jesus a person

gets direct information from God.

 

The scriptures tells us to study...to search the scriptures...to think...

and to beware of those who twist scripture into their own schemes.

 

AKA:  The church and christian apologists.

[Roz]

I don't know where you get the idea that by just praying to Jesus a person

gets direct information from God.

 

The scriptures tells us to study...to search the scriptures...to think...

and to beware of those who twist scripture into their own schemes.

 

 

[gall]

Xianity did not help advance the rise of science.

 

800 years of dark ages would agree with you.

[midniterider]

 

 

And the question "why are you more credible than (some other christian)" has been asked of IH days if not weeks ago.  He still hasn't answered why he's:  more credible than Ellen White, Joseph Smith, us when we were christians, etc."

 

It's the same question posted to Thumbelina, and she ducked out of it with IH like finesse.

 

IH has the true understanding of Christianity because he speaks directly to Jesus.

Becky Fisher has a true understanding of Christianity because she speaks directly to Jesus. Both of them think they have a relationship with Jesus but get different interpretations of truth and IH feels that Becky is a false prophet.

 

Becky prays to IH's Jesus but IH gets a different message than Becky when he prays to Jesus. A conflicting message that IH doesn't agree with.  WTF? It's almost like both Becky and IH are getting information from their own heads instead of the Jesus, who is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever.

 

Do Christians ever think past their own personal 'correct' convictions.... considering how illogical and silly it appears when they assert that their version of faith must be right, but their supposed Christian brother who prays to the same God gets false information? lol.

 

Is there a youtube video of a roundtable theology discussion between members of different denominations?  Would be fun to watch.

 

 

 

I don't know where you get the idea that by just praying to Jesus a person

gets direct information from God.

 

The scriptures tells us to study...to search the scriptures...to think...

and to beware of those who twist scripture into their own schemes.

 

 

Rewording then, sir.

 

IH has the true understanding of Christianity because he studies, searches scripture, and thinks.

Becky Fisher has a true understanding of Christianity because she studies, searches scripture, and thinks.

Both of them get different interpretations of truth from the same bible (the supposed word of God) and IH feels that Becky is a false prophet.

 

So you're saying that God doesn't speak to you? I would agree with that. Then again there is "John 16:13.  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

 

"Psalms 119:125: I am your servant; give me discernment

    that I may understand your statutes."

 

^^ From that book you study...

 

Do you pray? If so, why? Certainly, not for information directly from God. Maybe 2nd hand via the Pope or your pastor?

[Aggie]

 

 

Everything I view, according to the scriptures, as false teachings. 

 

You still have not yet proven with evidence why your specific mix-and-match version of christianity is more credible than Becky Fisher's, or Ellen White's, or Pat Robertson's.

 

Moreover, you still have not proven how the ruling church in the dark ages, for 1000+ years, have promoted scientific thinking.  Or how about the technological advances of the hebrews (the originals)?  They were seriously behind the 8 ball to the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, let alone the Chinese at that time.

 

 

 

You know...reading is fun. There are books and it's real easy to Google a name or a teaching

and get a lot of information. 

 

As for Christianity and Science: The following is not from a Christian site, but ABC.

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2012/05/08/3498202.htm

 

As was the case for laws of nature, the idea that mathematical relations were real had a theological justification. Individuals such as Galileo, Johannes Kepler, Rene Descartes and Isaac Newton were convinced that mathematical truths were not the products of human minds, but of the divine mind. God was the source of mathematical relations that were evident in the new laws of the universe. Like the Bible, the "book of nature" had also been written by God and, as Galileo was to insist, this book was "written in the language of mathematics."

 

Other scientists shared this view. Johannes Kepler, who discovered the laws of planetary motion, argued that God had used mathematical archetypes in his creation of the cosmos. Because of this, he wrote, the old Aristotelian prejudice against the mathematization of nature was to be rejected:

"the reason why the mathematicals are the cause of natural things (a theory which Aristotle carped at in so many places) is that God the Creator had Mathematicals with him as archetypes from eternity in their simplest divine state of abstraction."

Descartes even claimed that God had created the laws of logic and mathematics, maintaining that the equation 2 + 2 = 4 was true only because God had so willed it. In support of the idea that God was a mathematician, Descartes quoted the biblical verse: "thou hast ordered all things in measure and number and weight" (Wisdom of Solomon 11.20). Newton subsequently described the cosmos as inhabited by an "infinite and omnipresent spirit' in which matter was moved by 'mathematical laws."

 

Identifying God as the author of mathematics was thus a crucial step in asserting the reality of mathematical relations, and it was this development which enabled the subsequent application of mathematics to the subject matter of physics. Combined with the idea of a divine legislator, this insight produced the modern view that nature is governed by mathematical laws.

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

I think a person can make a valid argument that certain aspects of Christian teachings could foster a view of an ordered universe-- but then again, traditional Christianity has often been a staunch adversary of scientific discovery.  It's more than a bit of a stretch to say that the Bible supports an accurate view of the cosmos, the development of life on earth, the historical development of language, germ theory, etc.  IMO, that's where this kind of idea falls flat.

 

Speaking of the Bible, do you think the Apocrypha is Scripture then?  (I see you quoted Wisdom of Solomon.)  I'm surprised!  So are you maybe some form of Episcopalian then?  I like some of Wisdom and Sirach-- but it has its fair share of dross as well.  What about this one?

 

“Yoke and thong will bow the neck, and for a wicked slave there are racks and tortures.  … and if he does not obey, make his fetters heavy” (Ecclus. 33:27, 30b).

 

This, I think, would be my major point.  Sometimes former believers can be too harsh in evaluating certain contributions of Christians and Christianity.  Nonetheless, believers are often too willing to just see the good and side-step the profound intellectual and moral problems in both the Bible and in various Christian theologies.

[moanareina]

 

 

And the question "why are you more credible than (some other christian)" has been asked of IH days if not weeks ago.  He still hasn't answered why he's:  more credible than Ellen White, Joseph Smith, us when we were christians, etc."

 

It's the same question posted to Thumbelina, and she ducked out of it with IH like finesse.

 

IH has the true understanding of Christianity because he speaks directly to Jesus.

Becky Fisher has a true understanding of Christianity because she speaks directly to Jesus. Both of them think they have a relationship with Jesus but get different interpretations of truth and IH feels that Becky is a false prophet.

 

Becky prays to IH's Jesus but IH gets a different message than Becky when he prays to Jesus. A conflicting message that IH doesn't agree with.  WTF? It's almost like both Becky and IH are getting information from their own heads instead of the Jesus, who is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever.

 

Do Christians ever think past their own personal 'correct' convictions.... considering how illogical and silly it appears when they assert that their version of faith must be right, but their supposed Christian brother who prays to the same God gets false information? lol.

 

Is there a youtube video of a roundtable theology discussion between members of different denominations?  Would be fun to watch.

 

 

 

I don't know where you get the idea that by just praying to Jesus a person

gets direct information from God.

 

The scriptures tells us to study...to search the scriptures...to think...

and to beware of those who twist scripture into their own schemes.

 

 

Ah you are too funny Ironhorse

 

So you sure search the scriptures, think and are aware of those who twist scripture into their own schemes. As does Becky Fisher and all the others...and still you all disagree...how weird...and of course you are the one who gets it right and does not twist scripture into your own scheme...so tell us why? Why do you think you are righter than all the others who also think they are right?