South Is Usa's Poverty Belt, Gop Wants Same For Whole Country

[mymistake]

 Try making a living and not paying them. 

 

 

Making a living has rules.  You choose to do it here then you have accepted the rules and the income tax.  You made your choice.  Don't go to a restaurant, eat the food and then try to sneak away without paying your bill.

 

 

 

Property taxes are not voluntary, if you rent, you do pay them as they are added on to your rent bill and you never see it. 

 

Nobody holds a gun to your head and makes you rent.

 

We get that employers pay for SS taxes by lowering wages.  That doesn't change the fact that you knew the rules before you signed up.

[MagickMonkey]

BO, I think your distinction between direct and indirect taxes is simply a way to avoid admitting taxation, at least to some degree, is necessary. Whether taxed directly or indirectly, you're not doing to do much without paying taxes.

[RankStranger]

Lots of people live just fine without an income.  Even kids do it!  Millions of people in the U.S. file no return every year.  You simply CHOOSE to earn an income- and that's fine.  

 

Same goes for property.  There's property all over the country that's been abandoned because people don't want to pay taxes on it.  You too can do that.  Millions of people choose not to own property and pay no property tax.  Hell I didn't pay property tax in any form for 18 years one time!

[MagickMonkey]

 

BO, I think your distinction between direct and indirect taxes is simply a way to avoid admitting taxation, at least to some degree, is necessary. Whether taxed directly or indirectly, you're not doing to do much without paying taxes.

 

Necessary?  Why is indirect taxes necessary?  

 

 

Let me go back to my earlier question. What would be the state of things without taxation?

[RankStranger]

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

 

Because the government will kick your ass if you don't.  And I don't want you to get your ass kicked.  So won't you pay up?

 

I mean... to the victor goes the spoils.  Right?

[MagickMonkey]

 

Try living without buying anything.

 

 

Yes...but you are missing the point.  Even if you don't buy anything and you don't report anything and the IRS man comes by and he decides you are living above a certain level, he WILL give you a tax bill.  Thus extortion. 

 

No, I"m not missing the point, and no, there must be proof of income before you can charged for income tax evasion. Whether they'd attempt making it a court battle or not, this is really a red herring. You simply don't like being taxed.

[RankStranger]

 

 

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

 

Because the government will kick your ass if you don't.  And I don't want you to get your ass kicked.  So won't you pay up?

 

I mean... to the victor goes the spoils.  Right?

 

 

So then it is extortion....LOL. 

 

 

Yeah.  Did I claim otherwise?

[MagickMonkey]

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

A great way to avoid a question. Without taxation, our government would collapse, laws would not be enforced, etc. Anarchy would ensue, and would gradually be replaced by rule by whatever thugs were best and grabbing power.

[MagickMonkey]

 

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

A great way to avoid a question. Without taxation, our government would collapse, laws would not be enforced, etc. Anarchy would ensue, and would gradually be replaced by rule by whatever thugs were best and grabbing power.

 

And the direct vs. indirect at this point is a red herring..

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

 

Try living without buying anything.

 

 

Yes...but you are missing the point.  Even if you don't buy anything and you don't report anything and the IRS man comes by and he decides you are living above a certain level, he WILL give you a tax bill.  Thus extortion. 

 

No, I"m not missing the point, and no, there must be proof of income before you can charged for income tax evasion. Whether they'd attempt making it a court battle or not, this is really a red herring. You simply don't like being taxed.

 

 

 

Ah..but your wrong.  They do tax barter...  http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html  So even if you don't earn any money and you acquire as much as somebody making actual money they will come after you if they know you've done it. 

 

"...and you acquire as much as somebody"  That's income.

[RankStranger]

 

 

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

A great way to avoid a question. Without taxation, our government would collapse, laws would not be enforced, etc. Anarchy would ensue, and would gradually be replaced by rule by whatever thugs were best and grabbing power.

 

And the direct vs. indirect at this point is a red herring..

 

 

No- it's a pretty important distinction.  Because it allows Libertarians to advocate taxing poor people at a much higher rate than rich people... but without really saying that.

[MagickMonkey]

 

 

 

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

A great way to avoid a question. Without taxation, our government would collapse, laws would not be enforced, etc. Anarchy would ensue, and would gradually be replaced by rule by whatever thugs were best and grabbing power.

 

And the direct vs. indirect at this point is a red herring..

 

 

No- it's a pretty important distinction.  Because it allows Libertarians to advocate taxing poor people at a much higher rate than rich people... but without really saying that.

 

Well, yeah, but for the purposes of this discussion, it's a red herring he's putting out here to distract from the question of whether taxation, in general, is necessary.

[RankStranger]

 

 

 

 

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

A great way to avoid a question. Without taxation, our government would collapse, laws would not be enforced, etc. Anarchy would ensue, and would gradually be replaced by rule by whatever thugs were best and grabbing power.

 

And the direct vs. indirect at this point is a red herring..

 

 

No- it's a pretty important distinction.  Because it allows Libertarians to advocate taxing poor people at a much higher rate than rich people... but without really saying that.

 

 

And why is somebody being poor reason to extort taxes from me? 

 

 

Actually you're the poor one in this discussion.  

 

The people whose interests you vote for are the rich being taxed at a lower rate than you.

[MagickMonkey]

BO, please give your thoughts on whether taxation in general is necessary. Then, perhaps, we can move on to the forms of taxation.

[mymistake]

 If  you are employed or work for yourself you still have to pay it or you go to jail.  It is NOT VOLUNTARY. 

 

 

How did you get employed against your will?  Somebody held a gun to your head and forced you to work in exchange for taxable income?  Why that is something Hitler would do!   

 

 

You are so righteous to rail against the very thing that well adjusted people accept as normal.

 

 

 

...well, what if you own the house free and clear supposedly...

 

Somebody held a gun to your head and forced you to own property!!!  Wow you are a total slave!!!!  How dreadful that you were forced to own property.

 

 

(or maybe you knew full well what the rules were and choose to participate anyway)

 

 

 

You fail to convince me. 

 

Duh.  Nothing is going to convince you.

[mymistake]

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? 

 

 

I don't mind if you go to prison.  It's your call.

[RipVanWinkle]

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? Burnedout

 

 

 

To keep us out of the Dark Ages?

[MagickMonkey]

 

BO, please give your thoughts on whether taxation in general is necessary. Then, perhaps, we can move on to the forms of taxation.

 

 

 

Some taxes are necessary.  I don't think direct taxes are.  You need to fund the court systems, the national defense, the various functions of government.  I don't think much of what the government does not should be in existence.  I don't think there should be a welfare state either corporate or social, at least not on a federal level.  If it was local, maybe county, and maybe maybe state, but those can by and large be funded by sales and excise tax.  Federal functions; national defense was funded by tariffs.  The rest could be funded say.... by excise taxes like severance or export taxes.   It was only after the income tax came to being in 1913 that we got into so many wars. I don't think there should be a federal Department of education or energy or any other department unless it is EXPLICITLY stated in the constitution.

 

So in large part, it's how the tax dollars are spent that you disagree with? I still don't think there's much meaningful difference between direct and indirect taxation in terms of any direct detriment to the tax payer other than property and income taxes leave those who have little to pay taxes with with only paying sales taxes. And even many of the basic necessities are exempt from sales tax. Also, the graduated sales tax helps deter monopolization of the means for creating wealth. When the wealthiest get too rich and hoard wealth, they really do make it harder for others to gain their own wealth. They use their money to influence congress to stack the deck in their favor. They get Supreme Court justices appointed that will declare their corporations to be people. They can destroy small business owners in court, not because their law suits have any merit, but because the cost of defending themselves in court cause the small business owners to go broke or the threat of going broke causes them to settle. (Like what Monsanto often does to farmers). They hate regulations when it gets in their way, but love regulations when it makes the cost of doing business to great for small competitors. They hoard worthless patents that small competitors cannot afford to challenge, and then use those patents to extort license fees. They make business decisions that inflate the stock prices of their corporations in the short term, but leave the corporations in shambles after they've already sold their stocks. Their decisions often kill jobs as often as they create them. Automation and outsourcing erode the middle class, making good paying jobs hard to find. We are gradually moving closer to a plutocracy.

 

Direct taxation combats this. It impedes those with enormous incomes from accumulating wealth and the power that comes with it too quickly, and encourages businesses to make decisions for long-term growth.

[MagickMonkey]

When automation gets to the point to where almost no low-paying job are available - where even engineers are often replaced with software, how will the bulk of Americans earn their living? What will be left other than government dependency?

[Vigile]

Sales taxes are voluntary because you don't HAVE to buy anything.  You can decide not to.

 

And in the same way income taxes are voluntary because you don't HAVE to earn any income.  You can decide not to.

 

Hell property taxes are voluntary too!  You don't HAVE to own property.  You can decide not to.

And another bo argument goes down. This hall monitor wonders what it's like to be wrong about literally everything. That's quite a feat in and of itself.

[Vigile]

 

 

 

 

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes?

Because the government will kick your ass if you don't. And I don't want you to get your ass kicked. So won't you pay up?

 

I mean... to the victor goes the spoils. Right?

So then it is extortion....LOL.

It's not extortion if you receive services in return. You may not like the club or paying its dues, but if you choose to live in the club and use its services, you will have to pay the dues. I imagine that too is Nazi, since those little guys tend to get around for you. I also suppose pointing out most second graders understand this is necessary in order to avoid a chaotic society, also won't say you in your revolution, but soldier on like old man Harry truman who refused to budge from his cabin home when Mt St Helens was rumbling.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Randall_Truman

[Vigile]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me turn this around...

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes?

A great way to avoid a question. Without taxation, our government would collapse, laws would not be enforced, etc. Anarchy would ensue, and would gradually be replaced by rule by whatever thugs were best and grabbing power.

And the direct vs. indirect at this point is a red herring..

No- it's a pretty important distinction. Because it allows Libertarians to advocate taxing poor people at a much higher rate than rich people... but without really saying that.

And why is somebody being poor reason to extort taxes from me?

you're the poor guy in this scenario smart guy. What's hilarious to every but you is you're jumping up and down complaining about taxes and trying to make a distinction based on semantics when in reality you're advocating actually paying a larger share as those far above your pay grade would get more breaks. This is a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. How you can rant against your own interests while calling those trying to get you to see reality Nazis and Hall monitors or whatever the pejorative of the day is is both hilarious and sad at the same time. Sadly, mainly, because your not alone, but represent millions of other dupes.

[Vigile]

 

 

Why do ya'll think I should pay direct taxes? Burnedout

 

 

 

To keep us out of the Dark Ages?

i don't think you should pay direct taxes.

 

How do you know you would be in the dark ages? That is an assumption.

except it's not. For unlike your precious libertarian utopia, there are plenty of real world examples of the state of nature.

[gall]

BO, please give your thoughts on whether taxation in general is necessary. Then, perhaps, we can move on to the forms of taxation.

 

 

I love watching train wreck debates on taxation...

 

Are any of you going to take action to change something or just talk about it?

 

Please don't be offended at my statement. I do this on a lot of forums when I see this particular convo.

 

What actions do you all propose to fix the issues you are all debating?

[Vigile]

 

BO, please give your thoughts on whether taxation in general is necessary. Then, perhaps, we can move on to the forms of taxation.

 

 

I love watching train wreck debates on taxation...

 

Are any of you going to take action to change something or just talk about it?

 

Please don't be offended at my statement. I do this on a lot of forums when I see this particular convo.

 

What actions do you all propose to fix the issues you are all debating?

There's only one here who wants to change this particular issue and sure, he goes around scaring politician's kids and such to try and intimidate his way.

 

I personally do take issue with prods to 'do something'. It implies something can be done. I know most of us were raised with a can do attitude, but it stands in stark contradiction with reality and is simply fed to us in the former of propaganda as powerless people tend to act out, whereas those satisfied that if they just spin the hamster wheel long enough they'll make some difference tend to not give anyone any real problems so.