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Women In The Ministry And Teachings Of Jesus


ironhorse
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I almost titled this thread "Women in the Bible", but I was afraid

it might fly off into dozens of directions, so I wanted this first thread

on women in the Bible focused on their role in the ministry and teachings

of Jesus.

 

Once this specific topic is discussed at length, we can do future post threads on women in

the Old Testament, the early church and in Paul's ministry and teachings.

 

 

To get started...

 

Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

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You really want to start about women in the bible?  

 

You do know the bible verse "I and my father are one" is in play, don't you?

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Jesus Christ didn't exist.  There could be no ministry of the man who didn't exist.

 

The Roman Empire drove the elevation of women.  Roman aristocrats desired that the women of Rome's great houses have value.  So naturally when Rome took over Christianity Rome instilled this desired value into Christianity.  Rome choose which gospels would be included in the Bible and which would be wiped out.  And of course Rome decided how the included versions would be edited or rewritten.

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Here's my bet that IH will try to dismiss that verse "I and my father are one."

 

However, it was made during his ministry.  He claimed that he and yaweh are one.  This is in play.  My question for IH is then:  why did your god give different directives as to the treatment of women?

 

Unless you say "jesus and yaweh are two different gods" then you are lying and not presenting the whole picture of your god.  You are doing what christians do now, cherry pick the good verses and throw away the bad ones.

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And just so IH has a handy reference of some of the hundreds of verses he's gonna want to distance himself from:

 

http://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/18512-why-women-need-freedom-from-religion

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...

To get started...

 

Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

Evidence for this assertion?  Put differently, you have yet to "start".

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*rolls eyes*

haha i was hoping you'd pop in here. biggrin.png

 

yes, I read this and thought...hmmm. is that why not a one was chosen as an ''Apostle?''

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IH, also keep this in mind.

 

If you want to contrast jesus' attitudes and actions towards women in comparison with Rabbinical teachings...

 

Where did the Rabbis get their teachings from?  The Torah.

 

In your christian lore, who wrote the books of the Torah?  Moses.

 

What did Moses use as a preface when handing out the rules in Lev. and Deut.?  "Thus saith the lord..."

 

Please keep in mind your bible's scripture "I and my father are one" before proceeding with any replies in your thread...

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*rolls eyes*

haha i was hoping you'd pop in here. biggrin.png

 

yes, I read this and thought...hmmm. is that why not a one was chosen as an ''Apostle?''

 

 

Because like Ted Haggard, Jesus was a heterosexual... wait...

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*rolls eyes*

haha i was hoping you'd pop in here. biggrin.png

 

yes, I read this and thought...hmmm. is that why not a one was chosen as an ''Apostle?''

 

Lol :)

 

I just don't really know where to begin with this topic, except to say IH is really on a hiding to nothing trying to defend his faith's record with regard to women.  So what if a character in fan fiction written to promote a new cult sounded less misogynistic than the preceding mishmash of text written in support of a warring tribe's political hierarchy?  What the hell does it have to do with 2014?

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This is what jesus said to his own mother:

 

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.  John 2

 

That's right, he called her "woman"; he didn't even have enough respect to say, "Mom"... just "woman".

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Patience folks, Tin Pony has made an unsupported assertion.  Normal discourse rules, and related rational adult behavior, require Tin Pony to provide evidence for his assertion.  He has been asked to do so.  I suggest we wait until he attempts to do so (no doubt by vicariously pointing to some website page written by someone else).

 

Until he does so, his OP is not worthy of a response, unless you like to feed a troll.

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And Jesus called another woman a dog. Can't be bothered to dig up the verse, but it's in there.

 

I seem to recall one of the Christians here trying to claim that the translation for "dog" was misleading, and that it was actually a term of endearment. That's a stupid position to take. Don't bother trying it.

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     Rabbi's are just men.  Jesus is a god.

 

     To get started...

 

     Everything jesus did was piss poor for a god while the Rabbi's did alright for humans that followed a version of that god.

 

          mwc

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Guest Marty

Although it is attributed to Paul, the OP says "women in ministry" so I feel it is applicable:

 

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. - 1 Timothy 2:11

 

I believe there is a similar verse in Corinthians, but I can't be bothered to look it up...

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I almost titled this thread "Women in the Bible", but I was afraid

it might fly off into dozens of directions, so I wanted this first thread

on women in the Bible focused on their role in the ministry and teachings

of Jesus.

 

Once this specific topic is discussed at length, we can do future post threads on women in

the Old Testament, the early church and in Paul's ministry and teachings.

 

 

To get started...

 

Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

 

And what's your source for "rabbinic teachings" at that time? 

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This is when IH realizes his plan backfired on him.

 

"Curses, you meddling kids!"

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If there was a historical Jesus or one or more role models that formed the basis for the Biblical Jesus, we have precious little to go on to form a basis for Jesus' attitude toward women. If we confine the inquiry to the Jesus of the four Gospels, then we have ambiguity.

 

On the one hand there is everything pointed out above which generally portrays a Messianic figure without much regard for women.

 

But look deeper and there is an aspect of the Jesus of the Gospels who did seem to hold women in high esteem. For example, he is portrayed as having saved the woman accused of adultery from being stoned to death. John 8:1-11. He is portrayed as treating the Samaritan woman at the well respectfully and having a private and deep conversation with her, including telling her that he was the Messiah. John 4:4-26.

 

And then there is Mary Magdalene. If we look at all four Gospel portrayals of the women coming to the tomb on the first day of the week (our Sunday) after the crucifixion and burial of Jesus, we see different women listed from Gospel to Gospel. However, there is one name which shows up in that scene in all four Gospels. That's right, Mary Magdalene. John has a particularly moving portrayal of Jesus appearing to Mary Magdalene.

 

11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

 

13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

 

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

 

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

 

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

 

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

 

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

 

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

 

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

 

John 20:11-18

 

Why was Jesus portrayed in John as having appeared to a woman in general and Mary Magdalene in particular before he appeared to anyone else, including men? Why was Mary Magdalene weeping so as she stood at the tomb? Why did she not recognize Jesus until he said her name?

 

I think this scene in John portrays a Jesus who at least held Mary Magdalene in high esteem as she obviously is portrayed as having viewed Jesus.

 

Yes, I conceded something to IH - that there are parts of the Gospels in which Jesus is portrayed as treating women exceptionally well. However, as others have pointed out and which I will not repeat, there are parts of the Gospels which portray Jesus as not holding women in high esteem. I submit that the ambiguity is evidence of Gospel tampering in which the portrayal of Jesus as holding women in high esteem was downplayed in favor of a Jesus who employed only male leadership as the early church preferred (and many still do today).

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Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

 

1. Throughout his ministry Jesus talked to women and engaged them in conversation. This was

in stark contrast to first century Judaism thought and practice.  The religious leaders did not view women as equals to men. Women were considered subordinate and inferior to men in religion and society. 

 

The religious leaders were so afraid of even looking at women in the street in fear of conversation or having "lust" enter

their heads that they would often walk across the street to avoid contact with women or close their eyes when one 

passed by.

 

The common people called them the "the Bloody Nosed Pharisees" because they often bumped into a wall or post with

their eyes shut.

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Or, the gospels portrayed a Jesus who seemed revolutionary in his attitudes toward women because they weren't written by Jews, or by anyone who lived in ancient Israel.

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I'd say Jesus is much kinder to women than Paul, especially Luke. I wouldn't as Jesus was any kind of feminist, but I think in some ways Jesus is a kind of blank slate that people (especially gospel writers) project their own prejudices or ideals to. His sayings have 'something for everyone' and it is easy for people to pick and choose the teachings they most relate to. Maybe that's why Jesus is such an enduring figure like Buddha or Robbin Jood.

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IH, taking your story book at face value, who was the one that told moses what to write in the torah, the books that your pharisees used?

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Jesus' attitudes and actions toward women were revolutionary in comparison with Rabbinic teachings.

 

1. Throughout his ministry Jesus talked to women and engaged them in conversation. This was

in stark contrast to first century Judaism thought and practice.  The religious leaders did not view women as equals to men. Women were considered subordinate and inferior to men in religion and society. 

 

The religious leaders were so afraid of even looking at women in the street in fear of conversation or having "lust" enter

their heads that they would often walk across the street to avoid contact with women or close their eyes when one 

passed by.

 

The common people called them the "the Bloody Nosed Pharisees" because they often bumped into a wall or post with

their eyes shut.

 

Sources please.

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If Jesus was so different from other religious leaders of his day, and such a champion for women's rights, why was he so vague about it?

 

There's no point where he elevates women to equal footing as men.  There's stories where he talks to women, and some women were special to him (whatever that means), but why is there no verse on "Hey guys, stop treating women so bad."?

 

The bible, especially the new testament, is constantly used to brutalize women in the church.  I have been told to my face that I'm not as qualified, smart, holy, or chosen as a man by believers with ample verses to back up their position.

 

There's nothing revolutionary about Jesus or his message.  So he managed to be recorded being decent to a few women.  Great!  That doesn't win awards from me.

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