Women In The Ministry And Teachings Of Jesus

[bornagainathiest]

Likewise, if he believes that he can pick and choose who's questions he's going to answer and when he's going to answer them (despite promising to answer)... then he can do as he pleases.

 

Why?

 

Because he believes he can, that's why!

 

Belief.

 

Belief.

 

Belief.

[miekko]

Miekko,

 

Don't you understand it yet?

 

If Ironhorse believes he isn't lying... then he isn't lying.

 

Trivial things like facts, evidence and primary sources are irrelevant, my friend!

 

Belief is ALL!

I am going to force this down his throat until he admits to not knowing what he's talking about, and until he realizes his sources have mislead him. Lies are terrible things, those who serve then are pitiable and need to be told off until they realize just how they are serving evil. I don't believe there's a Satan, but the stuff ironhorse is doing here is perpetuating antisemitic slander. Any perpetuating of false witness, imho, is pretty evil. The fact that ironhorse thinks he's morally in a superior position due to his christian beliefs makes this even worse. Hypocrisy at its worst. I am going to hold him responsible for his failure to even attempt to live up to the commandment about false witness until he breaks down and admits to it. 

 

A line in the sand has to be drawn, this is where I draw it.

[moanareina]

 

Ironhorse

 

There is my question:

 

Assume there is a church with a female pastor. She is married and in her thirties. She has a team of five other women, married too and in their thirties and fourties. They lead different ministries and once in a while they preach. Once in a while, like every half a year one of the husbands gets to preach. But they are not involved in the main leading of the church. They have some side ministries like mens ministry or ushering or the organizing of the small groups. Of course they give a lot of time volunteering but their main task is to support their women morally. But the leading is all up to the women.

Would you be an active part in that church, if it comprises your convictions about the bible and Jesus and what you think Jesus message was?

 

If yes, why?

If no, why not?

 

 

If the church believed and taught the major doctrines

of the Christian faith and message and not false teachings?

Yes, I could be an active member.

 

 

What was the message of Jesus?

 

This verse I think is the main message from which all

other thing he said flow:

 

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

~John 14:6

 

 

"What was the message of Jesus?" That's up to you to decide...

 

So you would or you could attend a church and be an active part in it if women had the lead if they taught what you conceive as sound doctrine? It is a difference if you say you could or you would.

 

'Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."' This is a very interesting verse. We could now start a discussion what it really means...like what does it mean to get to the Father through Jesus? Does it mean to pray to Jesus or does it mean to think about him all the time or does it mean to invite him into your heart with a so called sinners prayer or would it mean to just live the way Jesus intended you to live, like him...like being the unique personality that you are instead of trying to imitate someone and become like him...like Jesus...is it to understand the heart of Jesus even if you never heard that name or can't get comfortable to that figure...there are many ways to see this verse...but it will be a whole other discussion. And it will be a discussion for discussion's sake...since it isn't even clear that a historical Jesus existed and I doubt that if a God exists, it will be the Father-God of the bible...

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

Miekko,

 

Don't you understand it yet?

 

If Ironhorse believes he isn't lying... then he isn't lying.

 

Trivial things like facts, evidence and primary sources are irrelevant, my friend!

 

Belief is ALL!

I am going to force this down his throat until he admits to not knowing what he's talking about, and until he realizes his sources have mislead him. Lies are terrible things, those who serve then are pitiable and need to be told off until they realize just how they are serving evil. I don't believe there's a Satan, but the stuff ironhorse is doing here is perpetuating antisemitic slander. Any perpetuating of false witness, imho, is pretty evil. The fact that ironhorse thinks he's morally in a superior position due to his christian beliefs makes this even worse. Hypocrisy at its worst. I am going to hold him responsible for his failure to even attempt to live up to the commandment about false witness until he breaks down and admits to it. 

 

A line in the sand has to be drawn, this is where I draw it.

 

 

Then you're probably just wasting your time, miekko. Ironhorse is a lying salesman for Jesus and will never admit that he's wrong. Every time you think you've got him, he wiggles around and slips out of your fingers with more dishonesty.

[miekko]

 

 

Miekko,

 

Don't you understand it yet?

 

If Ironhorse believes he isn't lying... then he isn't lying.

 

Trivial things like facts, evidence and primary sources are irrelevant, my friend!

 

Belief is ALL!

I am going to force this down his throat until he admits to not knowing what he's talking about, and until he realizes his sources have mislead him. Lies are terrible things, those who serve then are pitiable and need to be told off until they realize just how they are serving evil. I don't believe there's a Satan, but the stuff ironhorse is doing here is perpetuating antisemitic slander. Any perpetuating of false witness, imho, is pretty evil. The fact that ironhorse thinks he's morally in a superior position due to his christian beliefs makes this even worse. Hypocrisy at its worst. I am going to hold him responsible for his failure to even attempt to live up to the commandment about false witness until he breaks down and admits to it. 

 

A line in the sand has to be drawn, this is where I draw it.

 

 

Then you're probably just wasting your time, miekko. Ironhorse is a lying salesman for Jesus and will never admit that he's wrong. Every time you think you've got him, he wiggles around and slips out of your fingers with more dishonesty.

 

So? He needs to be told this repeatedly. Until he has a nervous breakdown if needs be. 

[bornagainathiest]

Good luck with that, Miekko.

 

I've been on his case for months in the, 'No #### Sherlock' thread.

I've refuted his arguments, cited ample evidence in doing so and repeatedly asked him to accept, acknowledge and admit that he was wrong.  Even if I get no response from him, I'm going to persist though.  Not with any hope that he'll budge one inch.  Nope.  Instead, I'm persisting in holding him to account, for these reasons..

.

.

.

To show those watching these exchanges that his mind is totally closed to facts, evidence and proofs.

 

To show them that if he believes a thing is true - then it is true, despite any evidence to the contrary.

 

To show them that he cannot and will not be persuaded of anything, about anything, by anyone.

 

To show them that by refusing to acknowledge, accept and admit, he doesn't just disagree... he denies.

 

To show them that HIS beliefs are more important to him than the truth.

.

.

.

So, here's an idea for you to consider, Miekko.

 

If you can't get him to acknowledge, accept and admit (no matter how long you try) would you be happy to persist in holding him to account for the reasons I do?  For the sakes of the lurkers, the newbies and those considering de-converting from Christianity? 

 

You see, I've come to the conclusion that banging my head against the brick wall of Christian denialism is futile if I've nothing to show for my efforts. 

 

But by holding the likes of Ironhorse to account for the sakes of the lurkers, I'm converting every act of stonewall defiance from him into an opportunity to show them delusional Christianity at it's very worst.

 

How does that sound to you?

.

.

.

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

 

Miekko,

 

Don't you understand it yet?

 

If Ironhorse believes he isn't lying... then he isn't lying.

 

Trivial things like facts, evidence and primary sources are irrelevant, my friend!

 

Belief is ALL!

I am going to force this down his throat until he admits to not knowing what he's talking about, and until he realizes his sources have mislead him. Lies are terrible things, those who serve then are pitiable and need to be told off until they realize just how they are serving evil. I don't believe there's a Satan, but the stuff ironhorse is doing here is perpetuating antisemitic slander. Any perpetuating of false witness, imho, is pretty evil. The fact that ironhorse thinks he's morally in a superior position due to his christian beliefs makes this even worse. Hypocrisy at its worst. I am going to hold him responsible for his failure to even attempt to live up to the commandment about false witness until he breaks down and admits to it. 

 

A line in the sand has to be drawn, this is where I draw it.

 

 

Then you're probably just wasting your time, miekko. Ironhorse is a lying salesman for Jesus and will never admit that he's wrong. Every time you think you've got him, he wiggles around and slips out of your fingers with more dishonesty.

 

So? He needs to be told this repeatedly. Until he has a nervous breakdown if needs be. 

 

 

Maybe while you're at it, you could teach fish how to juggle too. I'm sure you'd be more successful with that.

[sdelsolray]

…

 

3 "No evidence of "the Bloody Nosed Pharisees" exists until some Christian made this phrase up in the 19th or 20th century to paint them in as negative a light as possible. (note: I saw you gave sources, but these sources are not convincing. The Talmud only says 'the kizai pharisee who bleeds on the walls'."

~miekko

 

I guess we will disagree, but here is another source to support the view was from the first century.

 

The Pharisees had a huge control of the populace and therefore the Sadducees which were primarily a political, Jewish group hated them because they had to do what the Pharisees said.

 

"The Sadducees divided the Pharisees into 7 categories based on their character, in jest, but their jest was very accurate based on historical records -

 

1). "The Shoulder Pharisee" - He wears his "good deeds" on his shoulder. He won't let you escape without letting you know of his good deeds. He wears his badge of spirituality as a recitation of all that he had done. The sadducees said this type wasn't interested in God but rather just in people seeing how good he was, so that they would include him in business deals. They were like the men who go to church to look good in the community. They always make sure their in church on Sunday to make sure the deal goes through on Monday sort of chaps.

 

2). "The Wait-A-Little-Bit Pharisee" - He would always tell people while ringing his hands, "Well, I'm not what I ought to be. Pray for me because I'm not what I ought to be." He was always preaching and saying, "I'm not what I ought to be but give me time."

 

3). "The Bleeding Pharisee". - He was absolutely petrified of the possibility of lust. He knew that wherever there were women, there you'd find lust. In his mind, the best way not to lust after women was to close your eyes when you saw one coming. And these poor fellows would go around with their eyes closed and would be continually be banging into walls and they had a continual bloody scar on their forehead. And many times their nose was bloodied on the end because they were forever walking around with their eyes closed lest they should lust.

 

4). "The Mortar Pharisee" - He had a hat shaped like a mortar bowl that came right down over his eyes so that he shouldn't see anything that was evil or anything that would upset his spirituality. He was almost as bad as the Bleeding Pharisee, only he added to it his stance of humility. He would always bend all the way over and shuffle as he walked just to show you how humble he was. He was sometimes called, "The Tumbling Pharisee" because he tripped over himself often.

 

5). "The What Have I Yet To Do Pharisee" - He was forever counting up his good deeds to see what else he must do to be right with God. Paul might have been this kind. (Phil. 3)

 

6). "The Fear Pharisee" - The Sadducees despised this one the most because he lived in fear of hell. He kept all the commands of God just so he wouldn't go to hell. They despised him for that because he had no love for God - just feared hell.

 

7). "The Pharisee Who Loved" - He did love God and were operating in this idiotic system out of sincerity & love. Example: Nicodemus, he came to Jesus and his questions were loaded with a genuine love for God. Another example: Josephus of Arimathea - he dared to stand before the whole nation of Israel and offer his tomb for Jesus. There were others mentioned in Luke who came to warn Jesus that Herod was out to get him. Here and there you'd find these Pharisees who had an open and sincere heart and really wanted the truth. The Sadducees said this group out of the whole bunch were the real ones, the rest were hypocrites."

 

~ Dr. Malcolm Smith,"Jesus and the Pharisees" 

 

Dr. Malcom Smith wrote this in the 20th Century, not the 1st Century, which supports Meikko's point.  Perhaps you could provide Smith's 1st Century references from his original writing.  Of course, after you hunt for them (and do not find any such references), you could be intellectually honest and tell us Smith provided no references.

[sdelsolray]

 

So, ironhorse, whence does your source find stuff the sadducees have written?

 

Where is your source for stating that the slang term "bloody nosed pharisee" is a

of recent origin invented by Christians?

 

 

http://virtualreligion.net/iho/pharisee.html

 

Ah yes, an attempt to shift the burden of proof.  This is more evidence that Ironhorse is a coward.

[Deidre]

"a lying salesman for Jesus"

 

Hmmmm...I wonder if non Christians and/or atheists thought that of me when I "defended" the faith. I've deconverted, but I don't forget where I came from.

 

That sentence just jumped out at me. Sorry.

[moanareina]

"a lying salesman for Jesus"

 

Hmmmm...I wonder if non Christians and/or atheists thought that of me when I "defended" the faith. I've deconverted, but I don't forget where I came from.

 

That sentence just jumped out at me. Sorry.

 

Maybe a little off topic but this came to mind when reading your post

 

[miekko]

ironman, come on! Show you're better than the evidence regarding your behaviour tells us! Surprise us! Show you're a mensch and not a person too fond of your own lies!

[bornagainathiest]

Miekko,

 

Please read the new thread, "Thank You Ironhorse" to get an idea of what I've suggested here.

 

His denials and lies have become a kind of negative ministry against Jesus.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[Deidre]

 

"a lying salesman for Jesus"

Hmmmm...I wonder if non Christians and/or atheists thought that of me when I "defended" the faith. I've deconverted, but I don't forget where I came from.

That sentence just jumped out at me. Sorry.

 

 

Maybe a little off topic but this came to mind when reading your post

 

I'm out of up votes for the day. Wow, what a great clip.

Interestingly, not off topic.

[Deidre]

In reading some of Ironhorse's posts here and elsewhere in the forum, I don't see anything that is that out of the norm for most Christian men. The more devout they are, the more they believe the bs of the Bible. I don't know IH, but if I were still a Christian, I'd think nothing of what he is saying. I can't say if he is disingenuous in his tactics or not. It may rub me the wrong way now, having deconverted, but I'm not seeing anything that out of the ordinary for a Christian man.

 

He is defending the faith as he understands it and as he is equipped to.

 

One of the reasons religion sucks. It is a divider of people, but I don't want to forget that I once defended the faith too. Maybe differently than IH, but the "goal" was the same.

 

Just my thoughts.

[buffettphan]

 

"a lying salesman for Jesus"

 

Hmmmm...I wonder if non Christians and/or atheists thought that of me when I "defended" the faith. I've deconverted, but I don't forget where I came from.

 

That sentence just jumped out at me. Sorry.

 

Maybe a little off topic but this came to mind when reading your post

 

 

 

That was such a great movie.  I really liked the final monologue too.

 

[miekko]

ironhorse, I am waiting. Your sources. Any source predating Cohen's Everyman's Talmud, that isn't those Talmud references that don't say what you claim they say? 

[bornagainathiest]

Hey sdelsolray!

 

Is this the guy?  Mahlon H. Smith?

 

http://www.westarinstitute.org/membership/westar-fellows/fellows-directory/mahlon-h-smith/

 

http://virtualreligion.net/

 

http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2004/09/mahlon-smiths-blog.html

 

http://gnosis.org/library/dss/dss_timeline.htm

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[moanareina]

xxx

 

 

 

 

Yes its a good movie. Need to re-watch. Someone told me about it when I just left church. And it was such a good watch. Profound.

Thank you for posting the other video too. Nice thoughts to ponder

Have a great day too...

[sdelsolray]

Hey sdelsolray!

 

Is this the guy?  Mahlon H. Smith?

 

http://www.westarinstitute.org/membership/westar-fellows/fellows-directory/mahlon-h-smith/

 

http://virtualreligion.net/

 

http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2004/09/mahlon-smiths-blog.html

 

http://gnosis.org/library/dss/dss_timeline.htm

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Dunno, but I suspect it is this guy, "Malcom" instead of "Mahlon":

 

http://www.malcolmsmith.org

 

http://www.truthcasting.com/Life-Today-James-Robison-Jesus-and-the-Pharisees-4577.sermon

 

Your Smith seems to be more of a legitimate scholar.  This Smith seems more of a charismatic chump.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Hey sdelsolray!

 

Is this the guy?  Mahlon H. Smith?

 

http://www.westarinstitute.org/membership/westar-fellows/fellows-directory/mahlon-h-smith/

 

http://virtualreligion.net/

 

http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2004/09/mahlon-smiths-blog.html

 

http://gnosis.org/library/dss/dss_timeline.htm

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Dunno, but I suspect it is this guy, "Malcom" instead of "Mahlon":

 

http://www.malcolmsmith.org

 

http://www.truthcasting.com/Life-Today-James-Robison-Jesus-and-the-Pharisees-4577.sermon

 

Your Smith seems to be more of a legitimate scholar.  This Smith seems more of a charismatic chump.

 

 

Ah, thanks for that, sdelsolray.

 

Truth be told, I was having serious trouble reconciling Mahlon Smith's erudition with Ironhorse's incoherence.

 

The other Smith is a much better fit.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

Hey sdelsolray!

 

Is this the guy?  Mahlon H. Smith?

 

http://www.westarinstitute.org/membership/westar-fellows/fellows-directory/mahlon-h-smith/

 

http://virtualreligion.net/

 

http://ntweblog.blogspot.com/2004/09/mahlon-smiths-blog.html

 

http://gnosis.org/library/dss/dss_timeline.htm

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Dunno, but I suspect it is this guy, "Malcom" instead of "Mahlon":

 

http://www.malcolmsmith.org

 

http://www.truthcasting.com/Life-Today-James-Robison-Jesus-and-the-Pharisees-4577.sermon

 

Your Smith seems to be more of a legitimate scholar.  This Smith seems more of a charismatic chump.

 

 

Ah, thanks for that, sdelsolray.

 

Truth be told, I was having serious trouble reconciling Mahlon Smith's erudition with Ironhorse's incoherence.

 

The other Smith is a much better fit.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Although I have not verified it (I don't with to spend one hour and five minutes doing so), I suspect the second link I provided contains the text of Ironhorse's quoted statement from "Dr." Malcom Smith.  It's a video of a sermon he gave with the title "Jesus and the Pharisees", which is same author name and same title that Ironhorse gave in his reference.  I can't seem to find any information about the degrees "Dr." Malcom Smith earned and in what disciplines they are in.  That's strange.  I'm also waiting for Ironhorse to provide the 1st Century sources that "Dr." Malcom Smith used for his sermon text.  Perhaps he just made it up.  Would anyone be surprised if that is, in fact, the case?  If so, Ironhorse's presentation of "Dr." Malcom Smith's statements ironically support Miekko's comment that such subject material is solely sourced from 19th and 20th Century writings (or sermons), and not 1st Century writings.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

"a lying salesman for Jesus"

 

Hmmmm...I wonder if non Christians and/or atheists thought that of me when I "defended" the faith. I've deconverted, but I don't forget where I came from.

 

That sentence just jumped out at me. Sorry.

 

I don't think of all believers who defend the faith as lying salesman for Jesus. It's just the obviously dishonest ones that I feel have earned the title. It's okay that you pointed it out though. I could have tried being less harsh, I suppose.

[ironhorse]

"Textual evidence (mainly from the rabbis) rarely talks about women except in regards to cleanliness laws, and, unlike other ancient Mediterranean cultures, there were no special festivals or days dedicated to women, or any specifically female civic or religious societies in first-century Judaism. When women are mentioned by the rabbis, it is basically just to recommend that they be kept separate from the men both in the synagogue and at home, and that they not be seen in public any more than necessary."

 

~Mike Clawson

http://emergingpensees.blogspot.com/2009/03/truth-about-first-century-women.html

 

 

Here are examples from scripture where Jesus and women broke this taboo in his ministry.

Number 3 of Women in the Ministry and Teachings of Jesus

 

3. Women were patrons of his ministry.  They traveled with the group and supporting them financially.

 

 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Cuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.

~Luke 8.1-3

 

Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs.  56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

~Matthew  27.55

 

 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. In Galilee these women had followed him and cared for his needs. Many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem were also there.

~Mark 15.40-41

[bornagainathiest]

Keep up the negative ministry, Ironhorse! 

 

26... and still rising!