Super Moderator buffettphan Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 would you not warn a friend in danger? yes or no if they were UNWARE OF the dangers existence Please provide the evidence of the danger's hell's existence. You can't use your book of fairy tales as evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 It's bad enough he thinks we're evil, buffetphan. But you're only going to make his view of us worse by making him think we eat our grandmas! Well he already believes so much stupid stuff without any evidence, so he probably already thinks we eat little children and kittens too. Might as well add in a tasty grandma or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 They're so soft. And some of them smell funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 buffetham if i was your friend and i was in danger of being manipulated wouldnt you warn me, help a brother out? if i was unware of the existense of this delusion wouldnt you as a friend warn me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 buffetham if i was your friend and i was in danger of being manipulated wouldnt you warn me, help a brother out? if i was unware of the existense of this delusion wouldnt you as a friend warn me? 1AA1 you are not only in danger of being manipulated, you are actually in the process of being manipulated. Manipulations in your thought processes are causing a delusion that masks itself so well that you are unable to see it for yourself. You have a mental virus that you are unaware of. Fortunately, there is a cure. Consider yourself warned. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 buffetham if i was your friend and i was in danger of being manipulated wouldnt you warn me, help a brother out? if i was unware of the existense of this delusion wouldnt you as a friend warn me? You didn't address my comment. Provide evidence of the danger. Warning of a non-existent danger is simply "crying wolf". The fact is you are the one in danger by being manipulated by your belief system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 buffetham if i was your friend and i was in danger of being manipulated wouldnt you warn me, help a brother out? if i was unware of the existense of this delusion wouldnt you as a friend warn me? 1AA1 you are not only in danger of being manipulated, you are actually in the process of being manipulated. Manipulations in your thought processes are causing a delusion that masks itself so well that you are unable to see it for yourself. You have a mental virus that you are unaware of. Fortunately, there is a cure. Consider yourself warned. We were typing at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 Great minds think alike, buffettphan; and for some reason, so do ours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucynia Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 We dont want anyone to go to hell so let me ask you this.. would you not tell a friend to not jump off a cliff or would you encourage him to just do what he wants? regardless of the method its the INTENT that matters Directionless in a nutshell as to WHY my conversion its because i realized as an Atheist i had no real support from my peers and with christianity i did I felt God was there for me when i would call friends and family and not a single person was there for me. Overtime christians were there for me than my atheists ones during times of pain. But bad situations wast enough to change me, it was realzing how the bible was relevant and applicable to my life and people around me that i began to consider it and it picked up speed from there It seems to me a large part of your conversion was based on who was meeting your emotional needs. It's nice that the christians were there for you when you needed someone, but it's part of how they are trained to make more christians! You even mentioned that you're aware of this, with the friend that didn't want to do anything with you but go to church. A1, I don't have a nice way to say this. No one else is responsible for meeting your emotional needs. That's up to you. It sucks when it seems no one is there for you. That doesn't mean an imaginary friend is better. I've been there, where it felt like no one was there but god. It hurts. We're social creatures, so the idea of an always there friend appeals to us. But false reliance gets you nowhere. I'm sorry people haven't been as supportive as you want them to be. Please reflect on why that bothers you, and try to see if your expectations of your friends were fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Well Take this conversation between me and you disillusioned would you not agree that a typical christian would skew your words and say you are mocking them bashing them hating them...Well I dont see that I see you do care for me, but someone else couldnt see it the way i do Two different views but neither of them changed your INTENT of your message to me correct? Its the same thing with me, if not why not? This misses my point. I am asserting that the method we choose is at least as important as our intention. This is obviously true. If it weren't, then we ought to consider swapping airbags for machetes in steering wheels. This would certainly make people drive more carefully. Actions have real repercussions. Good intentions will not redeem you if your actions are reprehensible. its not about whats real its about intent, A friend in danger may not see that a aprticular danger is real drunk driving, dancing with a tiger, laying under a elephants foot as its about to crush them. Someone can NOT SEE or KNOW or think a danger EXIST, but it doest erase the fact that the DANGER coudl still be there would you not warn a friend in danger? yes or no if they were UNWARE OF the dangers existence? You think people are ALWAYS AWARE of the Danger? And yet drunk drivers, tigers and elephants all really do exist, and people really have been killed by all of them. You are speaking of a place which no one in history has ever been able to produce a single shred of evidence for, and you are telling people that they ought to fear it because it can't be demonstrated to not exist. Surely you can see that this is not even close to being analogous to real-world dangers. Yes, hell could exist. It's possible that if you don't convert to Islam you will spend eternity in hell. It's also possible that when Muslim extremists force people to convert or die, their intention is that these people will convert and hence be saved. But that doesn't really matter, because there is no reason to believe in their hell, and their method is beyond evil. It is about what is real. Otherwise, you are encouraging irrational fear. Where do we draw the line? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I would agree that Christians often have good intentions when they warn people about hell. We have no way of knowing if hell exists but we might look at the earthly outcomes of believing in or even worrying about the possibility of hell. - some people improve their behavior - some people develop irrational worries The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Probably it is better to motivate people through other means than fear of hell when there is no evidence. The Jews didn't believe in hell, and Jesus was a Jew. Furthermore Jews originally didn't believe in life after death. Early Judaism had no concept of Hell, though the concept of an afterlife was introduced during the Hellenic period, ... Gehenna is not Hell, but originally a grave and in later times a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on one's life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell Some Christians are universalists. I'm not sure what your church allows. Universalism seems to be a taboo subject among many Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 We dont want anyone to go to hell so let me ask you this.. would you not tell a friend to not jump off a cliff or would you encourage him to just do what he wants? That is a flawed comparison. What you are doing by telling people about Hell is warning them that they are about to go off of a cliff when there is no cliff edge in sight. When you try to warn people about invisible dangers, it sounds like you are warning them about imaginary dangers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think the issue here is that you are assosiating KNOWLEDGE of what is real versus what the other person you are talking about actually REALIZES what is real. You dont warn people that bleach will burn your butthole when you clean it not unless you believe that it will burn your butthole based on what you know about effects of bleach or you tried it for yourself after you ws told you had an std from your last relationship. Now, granted I can see how you all may say it is a false comparison because i havent tried hell, came back and said hey man dont try this. Sure fine I agree but that is not my point Good intentions dont erase reality, like if I intend to hit on a girl and i used a pick up line, her girl, your legs are like peanut butter, smooth creamy and easy to spread or Hey dude whats up, you drive a hard bargain, why dont you come to my store play with my merchandise? My intentions would be good but the results would be disastrous Sure fine i agree but that is not my point Here is what I dont agree and maybe im missing the point but hoenstly trying to understand So warning someone of a non existent danger is not right IF and only IF i actually BELIEVED it was non existent MYSELF. Then yes to proceed to warn someone to dont go in forest because you will get molested by Sephiroth,kefka,Saren,Albert Wesker,gunner sargeat hartman,barbara striesand,the joker,striker..Whoever is goin to do something, characters that dont exist in real life, that i also didnt believe exist that is wrong. But I would be warning someone about something i DO believe. True now a cliff you can see feel and touch, person might be on crack if they cant see the danger of jumping off but there are things elss tangible, You dont warn someone about drunk driving if YOU yourself dont think it is dangerous, but if you DID believe it was dangerous and they DIDNT, isnt it not proper to warn them and help them if they didnt think it EXISTS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 please don't speak of he-who-shall-not-be-named, for you shall be traced by the death-eaters,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven77 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The definition of the word "believe", courtesy of Google. All emphasis mine and all example sentences composed by me.: 1.accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth synonyms: be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful.... --accept the statement of (someone) as true. "My pastor/Christian friends/believing parents told me that the Bible is God's Word, that every word is literally true, historically accurate, and the most subperb example of human morality and the ultimate source of all love." --have faith, especially religious faith. "I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit." --feel sure that (someone) is capable of a particular action. "I don't believe that a human man could do what Jesus did. What extraordinary things he did during his time on Earth, such as healing the blind and turning water to wine." 2. hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose. "I believe in Jesus. I think that he died for our sins. I suppose he died upon the cross and came back to life three days later. That's what the Holy Bible says." ---------- It does not matter what you believe. You believe in Hell. Your belief in Hell is just your opinion that such a place exists. There is no objective evidence that it does and quite a lot of logical reason to suggest that it does not. It doesn't matter if 99% of Christians think that a place of eternal torment and torture exists. Your argument in favor of Hell rests upon an alarmist position of shouting warnings to a crowd that simply does not take your argument seriously. Most on these forums do not believe in Hell. Why? Because there is no such place! If Hell is anything, it exists in the minds of men. You think it exists, you give power to fear, and so Hell becomes real to you. You believe that God could find you lacking, that Jesus' death may not have saved you from your sins. You could go to Hell and this scares the shit out of many believers. Believers say that they are concerned with saving the souls of nonbelievers from going to Hell. They scream and argue and threaten and sulk. Some cry; others lie. They manipulate emotions and claim to want to save us all from the torture they dream of that takes place at the hands of the Enemy, the Father of Lies, Satan. You don't need to warn us, 1AA1. Really, you don't. Hell is a sad, sick and twisted doctrine invented by men. It is not the Word of God, nor is it the will of God. Hell is a means of entrapment, of fear, of control. Humanity does well enough with killing, torturing, burning, and all of that sort of thing, a great deal of it fueled by belief in the supernatural aka God/gods. Each side is convinced that the other will go to Hell or some equivalent. It is sickening and I for one do not like the perverseness of it all. Show me the proverbial cliff and I will show you people willing to jump gladly for money, sex, power, or whatever else floats their boats. "Good" Christians will jump just as surely as nonbelievers. Only the nonbelievers won't feel a tinge of guilt for doing so. Only the believers will find themselves in the depths of "Hell", a place created and fostered within the walls of their twisted, wasted minds. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think the issue here is that you are assosiating KNOWLEDGE of what is real versus what the other person you are talking about actually REALIZES what is real. You dont warn people that bleach will burn your butthole when you clean it not unless you believe that it will burn your butthole based on what you know about effects of bleach or you tried it for yourself after you ws told you had an std from your last relationship. Now, granted I can see how you all may say it is a false comparison because i havent tried hell, came back and said hey man dont try this. Sure fine I agree but that is not my point Good intentions dont erase reality, like if I intend to hit on a girl and i used a pick up line, her girl, your legs are like peanut butter, smooth creamy and easy to spread or Hey dude whats up, you drive a hard bargain, why dont you come to my store play with my merchandise? My intentions would be good but the results would be disastrous Sure fine i agree but that is not my point Here is what I dont agree and maybe im missing the point but hoenstly trying to understand So warning someone of a non existent danger is not right IF and only IF i actually BELIEVED it was non existent MYSELF. Then yes to proceed to warn someone to dont go in forest because you will get molested by Sephiroth,kefka,Saren,Albert Wesker,gunner sargeat hartman,barbara striesand,the joker,striker..Whoever is goin to do something, characters that dont exist in real life, that i also didnt believe exist that is wrong. But I would be warning someone about something i DO believe. True now a cliff you can see feel and touch, person might be on crack if they cant see the danger of jumping off but there are things elss tangible, You dont warn someone about drunk driving if YOU yourself dont think it is dangerous, but if you DID believe it was dangerous and they DIDNT, isnt it not proper to warn them and help them if they didnt think it EXISTS? This is dead wrong. Whether it actually exists or not is what matters, not whether you believe it does. If you can give a reason why you believe in hell, then the equation changes. But until you can, it remains extremely more likely that no such place exists. As such, there is no need to warn people about it. Billions of people throughout history have been damaged psychologically by the doctrine of hell. It is not a good thing to spread irrational fear. It doesn't help anybody, and it hurts many. If there is a danger that I am unaware of, you should first demonstrate to me that the danger is real, and then you should persuade me to be wary of it. Any other approach is just silly. And if you find that you can't demonstrate that the danger is real, then perhaps you should consider the reason for that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The doctrine of hell is exactly what prodded me to examine my beliefs, my faith, in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Raven no doubt it would make anyone examine their belief but im stimply saying hell isn't the number 1 reason for many atheists why they don't believe, because some dont believe religions that dont even Have a hell, so its more of a strong contributor but not the crutch of conversions. and i know my grammar has been slacking..im sorry teacher Please i will be do better on the final exam."If there is a danger that I am unaware of, you should first demonstrate to me that the danger is real, and then you should persuade me to be wary of it." True but proof is different from persuaion, and yes just because you believe something doesnt make it true or not true on the mere assertion. What im saying is my Intent is not for them have an undesired consequence, IF i am drunk and angry in that state at that period of time I may NEVER be persuaded until i am sober later on but that would be too late if i wasnt warned and did something dangerous and got killed. SO you cant go by i need to be persuaded by it to believe it is real in the same way that jsut because you beleeve something is false doesnt prove that it actually is false. Even in a court of law a term call Mens Rea is used in court that means this "the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime, as opposed to the action or conduct of the accused." meaning One cannot be convicted of murder is they truly had no knowledge of what they were doing, they may get instituionalized or professional help but they wont be hel accountable for murder itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 "If there is a danger that I am unaware of, you should first demonstrate to me that the danger is real, and then you should persuade me to be wary of it." True but proof is different from persuaion, and yes just because you believe something doesnt make it true or not true on the mere assertion. What im saying is my Intent is not for them have an undesired consequence, IF i am drunk and angry in that state at that period of time I may NEVER be persuaded until i am sober later on but that would be too late if i wasnt warned and did something dangerous and got killed. SO you cant go by i need to be persuaded by it to believe it is real in the same way that jsut because you beleeve something is false doesnt prove that it actually is false. Even in a court of law a term call Mens Rea is used in court that means this "the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime, as opposed to the action or conduct of the accused." meaning One cannot be convicted of murder is they truly had no knowledge of what they were doing, they may get instituionalized or professional help but they wont be hel accountable for murder itself. You continue to give examples that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. The doctrine of hell is abhorrent. It is abusive, hurtful, cheap, and psychologically damaging to billions. There is no evidence that such a place exists. There is no reason at all to think that such a place exists. Ergo, to fear such a place is irrational. To encourage people to fear it is to encourage irrational fear. This is not a good thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Didn't read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 i think we are talking about the wrong thing here......im not encouraging them to fear it, im not even talking explicitly about hell anymore im talking about INTENTIONS, my assertion was that it is possible to have good intention about talking to people about something even if they dont know it exists liekd angers of drunk driving, i may know they dangers but they may not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 1AcceptingAThiest1, maybe it would be easier to convince you that Jesus did not believe in hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 dang that hurt my brain lol ouch i cant..its hard to.. wow...never thought of that not even hypothetically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 i think we are talking about the wrong thing here......im not encouraging them to fear it, im not even talking explicitly about hell anymore im talking about INTENTIONS, my assertion was that it is possible to have good intention about talking to people about something even if they dont know it exists liekd angers of drunk driving, i may know they dangers but they may not I see. Topic changed, issue dodged, crisis (of faith?) averted. Of course it's possible to have good intentions and do bad things. There's no point in even discussing that. The intentions don't really matter that much, but they may exist nonetheless. You raised the issue of hell, and asserted that it is loving for you to tell others about it. I hope at this point you are willing to admit that this is not the case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted August 21, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2014 1AA1 I have already warned you that you are suffering from a delusion that is the result of mental manipulations. Yet, rather than take my warning to heart and focus on rooting out from your mind the very thing that blinds you to your condition; you persist in reveling in your delusion and pontificating upon the very foundations of the mental manipulations which deceive you as though you had not been warned. You contradict yourself when you say you feel a responsibility to warn us about the dangers of hell, but refuse to acknowledge or act upon a warning against delusion and misperceptions. Shore this behavior up, or risk being labelled a disingenuous troll. To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you did not understand my warning, as it was written in clear, articulate English. Allow me to translate it into your language: "A11A yu ar nto oyln in dager fo bing manpulted, yo re aktualy in teh prosecc of beng maniplated. Menepulatins in yor thogth processses aer cuasing a dilusoin thta maks itslef so wheell htat uoy re unalbe to see ti fro yoself. Yo hav a menial verus tha your are unawrae of. Fortunitly, they're is a ceur. Consdier yorslef warmed." 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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