Christianty/atheism....now You See Me....now You Dont!

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

i am honestly confused. if you could post your question or questions in a once sentence form then i can be more direct, when you ad a story to it or comemntary then the question, fter it, it must have thrown me off im not clear on what you are asking. sorry i cannot answer a question if i dont know what i is i genhuinly attempted it 3times i HAVE to be misunderstanding it. IF i was trying to ignore it or play games i wouldnt haev bothered

[disillusioned]

exactly you should relate to the fact that i was not a theist. Pretty cut and dry.

 

Fine, but that's not really saying much. As I said before, I can relate to the fact that you weren't a theist in exactly the same way that you can relate to the fact that I don't play in the NFL.

 

Let me ask you this.....Can an Athiest exist without Theism?

 

Of course. You wouldn't need the term though. If there were no Theisms then everyone would trivially be an atheist, just as if there were no NFL, then everyone would trivially not be an NFL player. But it would be pointless to make the distinction.

[moanareina]

And since you are not understanding my question about christian and non christian friends lets go back here.

 

 

Thanks moanerina i appreciate your concern for that you get to experience me using my first quote button yay!!


 

 

 

Now: To go tell people about God because you fear them to go to hell is fear based behavior. It too is hurting people. You know why? Because it is no real interest in them. If you only befriend me because at some point you want to tell me about your believes and hope I will be open to listen and might get saved, that means you have no real interest in me as a person.Actually this kind of evangelization has been the approach of the church I have been going to.

 

Thats why i said this in my AFTER CONVERSION

People dont really care how much you KNOW they only want to know how much you CARE. We need to meet people and understand them first. In real life, I don’t even let people know I am a Christian until we share some deep conversations about each others lives (unless they specifically ask me). I’ve realized how clueless I was (and maybe still am) about relating to people who aren’t like me. It’s easy for those of us raised in Christian homes/environments to misunderstand how the rest of the world sees us and life in general. If i make friends I make it very clear from the outset that this relationship is not didctated on the other person accepting Jesus, and maintain the relationship even if the change of heart never happens we shouldnt reject people because of their religious status sometiems i think in fact why classify people as Christians and Non-Christians. Why not just classify people as individuals?

 

 

TO answer your question

that is a unique question, the whole purpose why Jesus came down was because we broke Gods law and Hell was actually inteneded for the devil not humans. But after we broke we broke Gods law we are destined for hell until jesus paid our price so that we wouldnt have to that is Good news not bad. But in order for there to be no heave and no hell Then that means we would have never broken Gods law adam and eve and we all would have lives amazing lives no war no bitterness only love forever

 

You say if you make friends you befriend this person even if he might never convert. Now if he will convert, what happens then? When you make new friends who are not converts yet?

 

You know, I really really really come from a friendship based Church that put great and real emphasis on being friends with people in order to tell them about God. I know I can tell you this and you will think, yeah right...but really, our church was pretty unique in this. And people where quite patient and prayed for years and years for their friends and where friends to them and all. I know I said the thing about dumping them if it became obvious that they might never convert. But that was something they came up later on because they wondered why they did not grow like other churches in China or Korea...

Now what I was on is the notion of prioritizing people who where non believers instead of just having a circle of friends that is consistent. I took my friend to a camp once and there was a guy I liked and would have loved to get to know even if it would not end up in romance. Just to get to know him because he seemed to be interesting. But you know what happened. Almost everyone there only talked to my unbelieving friend, was loving to her, getting to know her, even he only talked to her. When someone talked to me and some of the unbelieving people where walking next to me I was soon left alone...because it was more important to save the unbelievers than to just spend time together and have fun. It was a horrible experience and it was pretty concentrated because it happened at a camp. But this happens all the time in non camp situations, maybe not that crazy but it does.

Now if you tell me you rather spend time with unbelievers you go into the same category. Why do you make the distinction? And well, yes my question might not have been the best to illustrate that. But your answer is still classic to me.

And you could also have said you would find out what the talk was about and then decide about it's priority. Or there are other possibilities.

 

If you spend time with people and think they will go to hell if they will not accept Jesus etc. there is an agenda involved. You say: We need to meet people and understand them first. In real life, I don’t even let people know I am a Christian until we share some deep conversations about each others lives (unless they specifically ask me). This pretty much sounds like having an agenda. You say you need to meet people and understand them first. Why not just meeting people because you like them? And understand them? What's that for? Will you not understand a friend if you are truly a friend without having to try? Just because you are friends, period? You say in real life. So you have a real life and a fake life? And you hold back on letting someone know you are a christian unless you share a deep conversation about each others lives...Sounds like the bad guy offering candy to a child to lure it into his car...How about just being friends and not mention it at all unless the other is asking you? Would this be an option? If yes, cool, If no, why not?

[moanareina]

OK, posting again as before the following:

 

 

moanerina a relationship wouldnt be meaningless if love existed in a world without pain or suffering relationship would probably be even mroe fulffilling

 

lol. OK, lets go there again.

 

Assume the story would have been slightly different. Assume there has been original sin like the one of Adam and Eve. There have been all the consequences (like hate, murder, being unkind to others etc.). But. Also assume Jesus came to die on the cross and all. Then assume HELL does not exist and HEAVEN does not exist either. Just assume. Assume that consequences of sin is annihilation (you cease to exist when you die). Assume that the offering of Jesus has no other meaning then letting humans know God is not mad at them. Just assume. Would you want to follow this God and if so why? Would you feel the urge to tell other people of your God and if so why? If not why not?

 

And please assume and give me an answer to my question instead of a: oh if men never sinned it would all be happy dappy fluffy bunny peaceful and great lala talk.

By the way, have you watched the video?

 

 

So tell me what about the question you do not understand? Where am I confusing you?

Thanks.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

 i wont be able to respond again until monday, today is my 6th day of overtime im off sunday. thanks for listening, and thanks for your genuine questions.

 

If you spend time with people and think they will go to hell if they will not accept Jesus etc. there is an agenda involved. You say: We need to meet people and understand them first. In real life, I don’t even let people know I am a Christian until we share some deep conversations about each others lives (unless they specifically ask me). This pretty much sounds like having an agenda. You say you need to meet people and understand them first. Why not just meeting people because you like them? And understand them? What's that for? Will you not understand a friend if you are truly a friend without having to try? Just because you are friends, period? You say in real life. So you have a real life and a fake life? And you hold back on letting someone know you are a christian unless you share a deep conversation about each others lives...Sounds like the bad guy offering candy to a child to lure it into his car...How about just being friends and not mention it at all unless the other is asking you? Would this be an option? If yes, cool, If no, why not?

 

I will answer this in in 4 different points using the responses i already gave, because i thought they were suffienct but perhaps not i apologize

 

 

People dont really care how much you KNOW they only want to know how much you CARE.

Before my conversion all i ever seen was christians put themself in a heiracrhy of goodness and deeds, look i gave out 1500 turkeys to homeless, for bragging rights, i never felt like they really cared, that they only did it to fulfill a legalistic contract. I promised myself that as a christian i will Care because i personally want to help people not because im following  a code or words on a paper

We need to meet people and understand them first. In real life, I don’t even let people know I am a Christian until we share some deep conversations about each others lives (unless hey specifically ask me).

Before my conversion i thought some christian girls were sexy but i knew it would never work in a relationship because of their beliefs, there was one that was interested in me though, so i said hey why not, yea i may not agree with them but maybe we can make it work...of course it didnt because I wasnt spirutual enough for her ::sighs:: figrues. So i made it a point that when i became a christian i will want to genuinly understand someone because i hated the way i felt when i was outchosen by another dude because a LACK of understanding.  There are some people probably on this site that have christian girlfriend/boyfriend//husband/wifes. This shows we want to UNDERSTAND someone in a honest and respectful and non hidden agenda way but because we like them and want to be with them for who they are as a person personaltiy, hobbies, music, career etc. I have Atheist friends who I NEVER talked to GOd about and all and I have some who ask me questiosn from time to time and we talk civily and respectfully, they respect that i never bring it u. Ever. I live my life AS a christian i dont need to wear a cross or go to chruch or hold a bible or preach to show i am a christian or to try and be a salesman. Jsut like i felt as an Atheist i want people to like  ME for who i am not because of my religious status so i give others the same respect.

 

 

If i make friends I make it very clear from the outset that this relationship is not didctated on the other person accepting Jesus, and maintain the relationship even if the change of heart never happens

Before my conversion I thought my christian friends were just ninja hiding waiting for me to ask just oooonnneee little question about God and they go jumping for Joy Puncing at thr idea waiting to convert me. I hated this...with a passion! Wha and  and then t am i a project? a scientific experiment? a dog? I needed people that were going to be there for me no matter what not because I didnt beleive and they hope i change and then cast aside like an animal when I was converted. No christian and non christian whould as a human beings should show love respect have friendships without any strings attached, otherwise we are just puppets. So when i DID become christian i made sure i treated People the OPPOSITE of what i used to THINK before my conversion because i remember the stupidity of all the things i felt christians did, I wanted to make sure i look at people face to face to see the EXTENT of who they are as a individual

 

we shouldnt reject people because of their religious status sometiems i think in fact why classify people as Christians and Non-Christians. Why not just classify people as individuals?

you said "How about just being friends and not mention it at all unless the other is asking you? Would this be an option? If yes, cool, If no, why not?"   Seems like we agree as i stated above i n POINT 1  i dont mention it unless someone asks, jsut look at people as friends as individuals thats it nothing more. easy.

 

 

Thanks Moanerina for your Patience i can see that you understood that i was honestly trying to answer your questions and not trying to pull your leg, i think when we put a personal story it helps us relay what we mean better. Because i did something similar to other christians, it automatically meant i was probably doing the same thing, and dont forget i was an Atheist as well so i know that your suspicion is understandable because when i was Atheist  i HATED the fact that people didnt get to know ME for ME and had hidden agendas so After my conversion i made SURE i wouldnt do the same So i can see why you would think i have hidden agenda I felt the same way before my conversion all the time every day every second every word that came out of a christians mouth, so your reasoning is logical it is not Authentic one that applicable to ME. A General statement can seem to have a motive or hidden agenda behind it, when there is no story to justify that statement, then the only thing left is for the person asking the question is to assume a motive already based on classical conditioning from other people and experiences, that is what you have done but perhaps not intentionally

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Assume that the offering of Jesus has no other meaning then letting humans know God is not mad at them. Just assume. Would you want to follow this God and if so why? Would you feel the urge to tell other people of your God and if so why? If not why not?

 

 

Yes i would still love God because he created me, just a like a son or daughter loves his mom and dad. I guess that would be the reason why i would still love him if there was no bible no hell no heaven no redemption story. I would just love him because he created me, i would love him out of personal desire and reverence. Said you wanted a straight answer  there you go.

 

You said you didnt want me to say Oh if this or that so im not allwoed to explained  which by doing so that leaves open for all types of interpetations of what i mean by what im saying  and misinterpreting me so if you want to do that go ahead I hope i get the CHANCE to say what i said on the next post, hopefulyl you will give me that chance idk its up to you if you want to

 

but i will say this on the logical aspect

if there is no hell nothing to be saved FROM no heaven to go TO. No saving from SIN. Then in this scenario God would literally be reduced to be just a character in a book that people read like Harry Potter.

[Orbit]

 

A1:

but i will say this on the logical aspect

if there is no hell nothing to be saved FROM no heaven to go TO. No saving from SIN. Then in this scenario God would literally be reduced to be just a character in a book that people read like Harry Potter.

 

Now you're getting it

[ExCBooster]

But, 1AAT1, you do realize that you ARE an atheist, right now, when it comes to the huge number of other Gods you don't believe in, right? (It comes with the monotheistic territory. If you believe in just your one God, by default, if you are Christian, then you are also an atheist, when it comes to Gods like, say, Quetzalcoatl.)

[sdelsolray]

 

A1:

but i will say this on the logical aspect

if there is no hell nothing to be saved FROM no heaven to go TO. No saving from SIN. Then in this scenario God would literally be reduced to be just a character in a book that people read like Harry Potter.

 

Now you're getting it

 

He has moments of clear thinking, rare as they are.

[moanareina]

 

Assume that the offering of Jesus has no other meaning then letting humans know God is not mad at them. Just assume. Would you want to follow this God and if so why? Would you feel the urge to tell other people of your God and if so why? If not why not?

 

 

Yes i would still love God because he created me, just a like a son or daughter loves his mom and dad. I guess that would be the reason why i would still love him if there was no bible no hell no heaven no redemption story. I would just love him because he created me, i would love him out of personal desire and reverence. Said you wanted a straight answer  there you go.

 

You said you didnt want me to say Oh if this or that so im not allwoed to explained  which by doing so that leaves open for all types of interpetations of what i mean by what im saying  and misinterpreting me so if you want to do that go ahead I hope i get the CHANCE to say what i said on the next post, hopefulyl you will give me that chance idk its up to you if you want to

 

but i will say this on the logical aspect

if there is no hell nothing to be saved FROM no heaven to go TO. No saving from SIN. Then in this scenario God would literally be reduced to be just a character in a book that people read like Harry Potter.

 

 

No no no, I do not let this be a legit claim of yours that I am misinterpreting you. Maybe it feels that way to you. But you forget that I have been where you are and that I thought the same stuff you do.

 

You say you would love God the same as you do now because he made you etc. Now, would you still have that urge to tell others about him the way you do now? That is the key question that reveals your true motives. To me it was an eye opener about my own faith and about why I felt the need to tell others about God. And I guess if I had not been ready to face it I would not have seen it...

After leaving Church I have read some books and one of them was "Irresistible Revolution. Living as an Ordinary Radical" by Shane Claiborne. He actually posed that question and it made me think a lot. He was like: If there is no Hell and no Heaven, would you still be following Jesus? Would you still be his friend just for him, because he is worth being friends with? After examining my motives for believing I thought well, that's what I want to. So it became my ideal. But by letting go of the Hell doctrine there was less and less ground for me to hold on to there being a God. It was not like I decided not to believe in him anymore. It was more like I found no Jesus left when I got real with myself.

I think this is one of the best methods of finding out if your faith actually is a heart thing or if it is fear based indoctrinational behavior. Especially when going out and thinking you have to save people. Just ponder that thought a few days and you will find out a lot about yourself. This is an experiment. A real one that allows you to test your faith  . If there is no hell, what will be left of my faith? If there is no hell, what is my purpose on this planet? If there is no hell, what is my "relationship" with Jesus about? If there is no hell, what does that mean for my friendships and the way I relate to people?

[moanareina]

 i wont be able to respond again until monday, today is my 6th day of overtime im off sunday. thanks for listening, and thanks for your genuine questions.

 

 

 

Thanks Moanerina for your Patience i can see that you understood that i was honestly trying to answer your questions and not trying to pull your leg, i think when we put a personal story it helps us relay what we mean better. Because i did something similar to other christians, it automatically meant i was probably doing the same thing, and dont forget i was an Atheist as well so i know that your suspicion is understandable because when i was Atheist  i HATED the fact that people didnt get to know ME for ME and had hidden agendas so After my conversion i made SURE i wouldnt do the same So i can see why you would think i have hidden agenda I felt the same way before my conversion all the time every day every second every word that came out of a christians mouth, so your reasoning is logical it is not Authentic one that applicable to ME. A General statement can seem to have a motive or hidden agenda behind it, when there is no story to justify that statement, then the only thing left is for the person asking the question is to assume a motive already based on classical conditioning from other people and experiences, that is what you have done but perhaps not intentionally

 

So why did you have to make sure you did not do the same mistakes Christians where doing when you where a non believer? Why not just being real and yourself without any tactic to how to deal with someone who has different believes?

 

Now from your previous posts it sounds like you want people to convert because you fear them to go to hell if they don't. Then you say you never talk intentionally about your faith etc. unless someone asks you or the topic comes up etc. So when that happens, does that bring up hope in you that maybe the other person can see how God works in your life? And you feel some inner excitement that your friend gave you an opportunity to let him know about your believe in God? And you hope that he might see more of it in your life and ask you more about God?

 

I am very skeptic about your claims because the way you came on this forum has been quite stereotype christian. And you hardly ever have asked anyone about their personal story or so to learn about why we are here. You came here and where like: ASK ME. You come here and write some sort of before and after story so people would understand where you come from but I have not seen that same effort from you to understand where people here come from. Instead I see generalizations, stereotypes and your claim of understanding atheism because you have been an atheist before you came to be a Christian. Maybe I have to repeat some of the others here: Each of us has a unique story. The one thing we share is that at some point we have been Christians and then for very unique reasons left. There really is a difference of being an atheist because you are just not interested in religion and being an atheist because you have been religious and lost your faith for whatever reasons. With many who say they are atheist I can not really go into deep talk about it. It is like some say I am a Christian and what that means is: I got baptized as a child, go to church twice a year and my funeral will be payed by the church (I payed taxes to each year). So if you claim to have been an atheist and therefore understanding where we come from I have to disappoint you. Unless you deconvert and become a post Christian atheist you do not. And the way you articulate here is just proof of that. And yes, I have read your before and after story.

[Thackerie]

 

Assume that the offering of Jesus has no other meaning then letting humans know God is not mad at them. Just assume. Would you want to follow this God and if so why? Would you feel the urge to tell other people of your God and if so why? If not why not?

 

 

Yes i would still love God because he created me, just a like a son or daughter loves his mom and dad. I guess that would be the reason why i would still love him if there was no bible no hell no heaven no redemption story. I would just love him because he created me, i would love him out of personal desire and reverence. Said you wanted a straight answer  there you go.

 

You said you didnt want me to say Oh if this or that so im not allwoed to explained  which by doing so that leaves open for all types of interpetations of what i mean by what im saying  and misinterpreting me so if you want to do that go ahead I hope i get the CHANCE to say what i said on the next post, hopefulyl you will give me that chance idk its up to you if you want to

 

but i will say this on the logical aspect

if there is no hell nothing to be saved FROM no heaven to go TO. No saving from SIN. Then in this scenario God would literally be reduced to be just a character in a book that people read like Harry Potter.

 

 

I love my parents because they were present in my life and made it clear through their actions that they loved me. I would not feel love for a god who created me but was otherwise not involved with me in a positive way. In the same way, if my father were an anonymous sperm donor, I would not love him even though I would probably be glad that he helped cause me to be born. But, maybe your definition of "love" is different from mine?

 

if there is no hell nothing to be saved FROM no heaven to go TO. No saving from SIN. Then in this scenario God would literally be reduced to be just a character in a book that people read like Harry Potter.

 

BINGO!

 

I don't believe in Hell. (Interesting that you list being saved from Hell first, as if that's the primary motivation to believe in God, perhaps?) I don't believe in Heaven. I don't believe in any gods. Bible God IS just a fictional character as far as I can tell.

 

But, I do believe that any of the Harry Potter books are far superior to the Bible.

[moanareina]

 

 

I love my parents because they were present in my life and made it clear through their actions that they loved me. I would not feel love for a god who created me but was otherwise not involved with me in a positive way. In the same way, if my father were an anonymous sperm donor, I would not love him even though I would probably be glad that he helped cause me to be born. But, maybe your definition of "love" is different from mine?

 

 

That's a good point actually. I can't particularly say I loved my biological dad. He gave me the DNA necessary to create me and I am thankful that it includes a keen mind and intelligence I really can't say I love him. He has been absent from my birth (not his fault exactly...or not the classic you hear, he had no possibility to enter Switzerland for reasons of teenage stupidity...my mom and he committed), and he has been absent from my life. He visited me a few times where I can remember one single visit. And how he gave me a stuffed animal as a present. But there has been no relationship at all and then he died when I was sixteen or so due to AIDS. How can I say I love him when I have never actually talked to him, never actually seen him in person. I do have pictures of him. And what people told me about him. I could adore him if I wanted. Though I think that would be quite weird because he did not live a life you wish any child to live.

 

Love is different. To love someone he needs to be present. At least for a time. Otherwise you just love a phantom. Someone you imagine.

 

1AA1, Even if God exists, how much of you "loving" him has to do with you imagining how he is? Due to what you think to know about him from the bible...combined with some psychological experiences made in prayer and meditation or maybe worship sessions? And how much is actually from you meeting God for real and having a relationship like you are having with a parent?

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

you say you read my before story, but perhaps due to my gramamer you are not understanding anything im saying, because half the questions your asking and points your making i answered them in my before conversion but idk maybe its my bad grammar and sentence  structured skewing what i am saying.

 

Now from your previous posts it sounds like you want people to convert because you fear them to go to hell if they don't.

It is not so much as i Want them to convert in the same sense that i am a car salesman and i want them to buy a car. What i want is  if they came to me FIRST about aquestion about my faith, then i will answer their question but not be convinced by what people say, but to find God thru personal search dont take my word on it or any preachers word on it. because i cannot convert anyone. ever. never have. never will. or ever will be. period. basic foudnation of christianity will tell you, That is not the reason why we talk to people, if that is allllllllll that you experienced as a christian, Then.....man, i am truly so sorry that is all you ever known because it is so not the case. You guys were christian perhaps you would know the verse that states why we cannot convert someone i will leave it to your previous christian knowledge to supply that verse if you do not have it then i can provide it next post

 

 Then you say you never talk intentionally about your faith etc. unless someone asks you or the topic comes up etc. So when that happens, does that bring up hope in you that maybe the other person can see how God works in your life? Does it bring hope and joy to your heart when Christian deconverts from Christianty and becomes atheists and coems to you for help? And you feel some inner excitement that your friend gave you an opportunity to let him know about your believe in God? And you hope that he might see more of it in your life and ask you more about God?

 

Since you know my belief is that God loves everyone then yes, you would know naturally i would be happy if someone can experience his love, In the same way you are glad when a christian deconverts and becomes Atheist and joins this site,  you may be sad at first because that person went thru a tough experience, but when they communicate with you and tell you their heartfelt story, you relate to them right? stories are different sure but the end result is the same, because you are not heartless, you are a person who has feelings and emotions and relates to people when they gone thru a simialar experience as yourself, and you feel a sense of peace that they are no longer psychologically stuck in a christian mindset about hell, scared of hell, etc would would feel happy that they no longer endure such psychological pain?

 

 

 

I am very skeptic about your claims because the way you came on this forum has been quite stereotype christian. And you hardly ever have asked anyone about their personal story or so to learn about why we are here.

I proved this false countless times, I only seen you in chat once, but i go in there everyday, i talk to people in there about their beliefs, what happened, their feelings emotions, or sometimes i talk about everyday life things, sex video games, cars or reproduction contracts and other miscellaneos. Just because you dont see me ask, doesnt mean i dont, i get private messeges as well i ask people about themself all the time.

 

Unless you deconvert and become a post Christian atheist you do not. And the way you articulate here is just proof of that. And yes, I have read your before and after story.

I have been atheist christian atheist and BACK to christian so yea i think i been thru the post christian process then went back. THis was actually in my first first testimony here on this site explaining how that is even possible. Trying the faith and it not working neededing GOd to show himself to me but nothing came to fruition so gave up and moved on. I old enough now to have gone back and forth, it didnt happen in a short time span. But even if i didnt go thru the POST process, this isnt a competition to see who relates better or about you will never understand him or her. The goal is to get to know people for who they are, JUST like i wanted as an Atheist i wanted people to know ME for ME, thats why i DO ask questions visit me in chat more and you will see.

 

1AA1, Even if God exists, how much of you "loving" him has to do with you imagining how he is? Due to what you think to know about him from the bible...combined with some psychological experiences made in prayer and meditation or maybe worship sessions? And how much is actually from you meeting God for real and having a relationship like you are having with a parent?

God is not tangible i cannot give him a hug, are you hinging on this alone that he is not real to me? Before i proceed to answer this question so that i do not misrepresent what you are asking, i let you clarify.

 

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

 

I love my parents because they were present in my life and made it clear through their actions that they loved me. I would not feel love for a god who created me but was otherwise not involved with me in a positive way. In the same way, if my father were an anonymous sperm donor, I would not love him even though I would probably be glad that he helped cause me to be born. But, maybe your definition of "love" is different from mine?

 

Agreed if God created me but was just there and no involvement, then yes it would be like meeting a long lost relative i never seen before i cannot love them per se, i would have to get to know them. But that is not the case with me

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

Moanerina, I thoroughly enjoy these questions from you, I helps me to relate to people outside of my circle, too often times people are stuck up and only want to be around their own kind, I never been like that. I

 

To answer your question if there is no hell would i still tell people about God, the answer is no by sheer logical necessity. But the question itself is flawed, By logical necessity you wouldnt, hell would be nonexistent there is nothing to tell. in this scenario God would just be a cahracter in a book, people dont go around telling other people about other characters in books as if it will bring any significance to their life, they share a funny story ro experience,  But in your scenario God would just be like a Mom or dad to me or character ina  book, if people didnt believe he exists and there was no heaven or hell, he would just be the creator of the universe and people would probably not care he is the creator of the universe, they would be glad the world was created but they would nto care for or appreciate the creator of the very place they have to live. Try bringing in a homeless person into your house, and he ate all your food used all your resources and he didnt give a squat about you. That is what your scenario would be like

 

What you have done with the question is Take an essential element out of scenario and the question becomes invalid to answer with any other answer but one. for example

 

Todays world

The sun is hot it can damage your eyes if you look into it for extended periods of time

 

Your Question equates to this

What if the sun was not Hot, would you still tell people not to look in the sun because it will damage your eyes? By logical necessity No.

 

Your test of indoctrination is under the presuppostion the hell does not exist, asking that question would make sense if hell inf act ws provedn 100% did not exist this comment brign sabout your next question prove hells exist then...well sorry i cant no one ahs in the past 2000 years what makes you think i can. If that was not your follow question good, that saved us 13minutes 45 secondsand 3 miliseconds. But here is the ting in the same way if someone presupposed the sun was not hot my scenario wouldnt make sense....Now in todays world we know the sun is hot that is withotu qustion but using a impossible odd type hypothetical questionare you have suggested if the off chance someone Believed the SUN was not HOT and it could NOT be observed or proved under any circumstance that it IS HOT, Can you tell me the difference between someone between your scenario and mine?  If the whole world beleived the sun was not hot, by scientific community, scientists, EVERYONE then......you would tell people to not look at the sun becasue it will damage your eyes

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

again thansk for asking these questions i see you are trying to help me and i appreciate it very much actually...Thank you.

[1AcceptingAThiest1]

 So why did you have to make sure you did not do the same mistakes Christians where doing when you where a non believer? Why not just being real and yourself without any tactic to how to deal with someone who has different believes?

 

 

I dont worry about tactics i just be myself as you stated thats why in my before conversion i said "Not befriend me so that they can give me a message that my beliefs are not OK AFTER we’ve known one another for a while, but to leave me alone to live my life. Do not become more sophisticated in their evangelism, leave me alone.

based on this information, Knowing this is how i felt after being a christian i would nto resort to petty tactics. I want people to know me for me, so i intend to extend the same respect to others

[moanareina]

Yes 1AA1 I have read your before and after story believe it or not. I also have read what you have told us about yourself in other threads and tadaaaa...I have read through this thread and no, it does not explain everything and it is not due to your grammar. I am smart enough to over read your grammar mistakes even though I am not native in english. Surprise!

 

 

 

It is not so much as i Want them to convert in the same sense that i am a car salesman and i want them to buy a car. What i want is  if they came to me FIRST about aquestion about my faith, then i will answer their question but not be convinced by what people say, but to find God thru personal search dont take my word on it or any preachers word on it. because i cannot convert anyone. ever. never have. never will. or ever will be. period. basic foudnation of christianity will tell you, That is not the reason why we talk to people, if that is allllllllll that you experienced as a christian, Then.....man, i am truly so sorry that is all you ever known because it is so not the case. You guys were christian perhaps you would know the verse that states why we cannot convert someone i will leave it to your previous christian knowledge to supply that verse if you do not have it then i can provide it next post

 

You really don't see it. I know you don't want people to convert as the car salesman wants to sell his car. I get that. Always have. Because I know the deal, have been there. And I too get the thinking of it not to be you who is converting people. I get that too...now still it is you who thinks is being used by God in doing so, in letting the holy spirit do his work through you, no? Otherwise there was no need for hoping to have a chance to tell someone about your faith. Because you where confident that God would just be fine with you just living your life and not worrying about someone else's spirituality.

 

 

 

Since you know my belief is that God loves everyone then yes, you would know naturally i would be happy if someone can experience his love, In the same way you are glad when a christian deconverts and becomes Atheist and joins this site,  you may be sad at first because that person went thru a tough experience, but when they communicate with you and tell you their heartfelt story, you relate to them right? stories are different sure but the end result is the same, because you are not heartless, you are a person who has feelings and emotions and relates to people when they gone thru a simialar experience as yourself, and you feel a sense of peace that they are no longer psychologically stuck in a christian mindset about hell, scared of hell, etc would would feel happy that they no longer endure such psychological pain?

 

Actually I don't really care if a christian deconverts or not in the sense you mention and whoever joins this site joins this site. I am happy when people find freedom from believes that make them sick but I never go and befriend people to lead them away from faith because that is their very own business. Actually I left Church silently. I never told anyone to leave Church for various reasons. Those people have chosen to believe what they believe and that is their decision not mine. But yes, if someone starts to see though it all and is looking for support I will be there. Though I am not hoping and waiting and befriending people for that. I move on, live my life and try to find people who I can relate to due to personal preferences and character.

 

 

 

I proved this false countless times, I only seen you in chat once, but i go in there everyday, i talk to people in there about their beliefs, what happened, their feelings emotions, or sometimes i talk about everyday life things, sex video games, cars or reproduction contracts and other miscellaneos. Just because you dont see me ask, doesnt mean i dont, i get private messeges as well i ask people about themself all the time.

 

Sorry but no, I have not seen proof to of this being false. And yes I have been in the chat recently and I have been on the chat a few months ago and the thing about the chat is, that it is just throwing lines back and forth. For my sense there is hardly a real conversation going on. And it is just too fast for me because I am not a fast reader. My typing skills have improved over the years but still when I type in something the conversation has moved on already and I am way behind it...so I just don't find that much joy in the chat as you probably do. But yeah, I have seen you talking in there and it did not sound like what you just described but that is just my perception and I was in there for a short time only and too many people in there at the same time.

 

 

 

I have been atheist christian atheist and BACK to christian so yea i think i been thru the post christian process then went back. THis was actually in my first first testimony here on this site explaining how that is even possible. Trying the faith and it not working neededing GOd to show himself to me but nothing came to fruition so gave up and moved on. I old enough now to have gone back and forth, it didnt happen in a short time span. But even if i didnt go thru the POST process, this isnt a competition to see who relates better or about you will never understand him or her. The goal is to get to know people for who they are, JUST like i wanted as an Atheist i wanted people to know ME for ME, thats why i DO ask questions visit me in chat more and you will see.

 

OK 1AA1, here my question. After having a faith crisis and being somewhat atheist I got Christian again when hanging out with christian punks having our meetings on wednesday at a location in the red light and drug district of zurich and getting to know a very unique Church through them. At one point I decided to let go of that group and join that Church and became very dedicated and also I had those God experiences and all. Now, can you say you have been involved in Church for twelve years, volunteered in different ministries, been a small group leader, having read the bible several times from cover to cover, being part of a prayer team and having prayed for people, having had great times and experiences with it all, being involved in deliverance ministry then having left Church after those twelve dedicated years, going through a process of loosing faith step by step for almost seven years? If yes you can make your claim about post christian process. If not, I am sorry but you really do not get where I and others on this site are coming from. It is not the same. And you are right it is not about competition and I don't see how you think it is. It is about you claiming to understand where we are coming from due to your before and after story when in fact you do not and show time after time that you do not.

 

 

 

God is not tangible i cannot give him a hug, are you hinging on this alone that he is not real to me? Before i proceed to answer this question so that i do not misrepresent what you are asking, i let you clarify.

 

See, that's what I am talking about. I have no doubts that he seems to be real to you. As real as he seemed to be to me. But is he? How do you know he is real and not just a phantom of your mind? And how can it be LOVE if he is not tangible?

 

 

Now I am sorry but I can't agree with your comparison about the sun and about hell. Because the damage the sun does to your eyes is a fact that can be tested. Hells existence is an assumption of some Christians and as you yourself admit can not be proven. By the way it is not the heat of the sun that does harm to your eyes...it is the brightness and the rays. If a cloud covers the sun but the heat still hits the earth, no harm to your eyes...if the sun is fully visible but it is freaking cold and you look straight into the sun...your eyes will hurt...

 

And now I need to pack because I am leaving tomorrow for some vacations.

See you in two weeks.

[Neverlandrut]

Forgive me if I'm being redundant. Haven't read all the comments.

 

I personally don't deny Christian's good intentions by warning people of hell. But one can have good intentions and still cause real harm. So intentions are not all that matter and intentions are not the most important factor in every case. If hell isn't real, then making people fearful they will go to a place of eternal fiery torment if they don't believe X Y Z is manipulation and psychological abuse. Many people are paralyzed by this fear of hell. That is real psychological harm. There is no evidence of hell, but there is evidence of the harm that comes from believing in it.

 

A mentally ill person may have a paranoid delusion that a murderer is out to get a 6 year old boy, and truly believe it. That person may warn that 6 year old boy with the best of intentions. But should the mentally ill person be allowed to scare the boy with such unsubstantiated claims? No.

[Neverlandrut]

Moanerina, I thoroughly enjoy these questions from you, I helps me to relate to people outside of my circle, too often times people are stuck up and only want to be around their own kind, I never been like that. I

 

To answer your question if there is no hell would i still tell people about God, the answer is no by sheer logical necessity. But the question itself is flawed, By logical necessity you wouldnt, hell would be nonexistent there is nothing to tell. in this scenario God would just be a cahracter in a book, people dont go around telling other people about other characters in books as if it will bring any significance to their life, they share a funny story ro experience, But in your scenario God would just be like a Mom or dad to me or character ina book, if people didnt believe he exists and there was no heaven or hell, he would just be the creator of the universe and people would probably not care he is the creator of the universe, they would be glad the world was created but they would nto care for or appreciate the creator of the very place they have to live. Try bringing in a homeless person into your house, and he ate all your food used all your resources and he didnt give a squat about you. That is what your scenario would be like

 

What you have done with the question is Take an essential element out of scenario and the question becomes invalid to answer with any other answer but one. for example

 

Todays world

The sun is hot it can damage your eyes if you look into it for extended periods of time

 

Your Question equates to this

What if the sun was not Hot, would you still tell people not to look in the sun because it will damage your eyes? By logical necessity No.

 

Your test of indoctrination is under the presuppostion the hell does not exist, asking that question would make sense if hell inf act ws provedn 100% did not exist this comment brign sabout your next question prove hells exist then...well sorry i cant no one ahs in the past 2000 years what makes you think i can. If that was not your follow question good, that saved us 13minutes 45 secondsand 3 miliseconds. But here is the ting in the same way if someone presupposed the sun was not hot my scenario wouldnt make sense....Now in todays world we know the sun is hot that is withotu qustion but using a impossible odd type hypothetical questionare you have suggested if the off chance someone Believed the SUN was not HOT and it could NOT be observed or proved under any circumstance that it IS HOT, Can you tell me the difference between someone between your scenario and mine? If the whole world beleived the sun was not hot, by scientific community, scientists, EVERYONE then......you would tell people to not look at the sun becasue it will damage your eyes

So, to you, fear of hell is the only reason the appreciate god? Your conclusion does not follow. You said people would not appreciate god if there was no hell. Why not? Is fear of punishment and/or expectation of reward the only reason to appreciate and thank someone? There are many people who do not believe in hell, but yet still appreciate and thank god, and believe in having a relationship with him. They still believe their life's purpose is to know god, even though hell does not exist. The existence of such people disproves your point.

 

There are homeless people who would thank you for a meal in your house and feel a need to show gratitude and try to repay you.

 

BTW, the idea of a literal hell is not even well supported by the bible! Beside the fact that the words translated as hell are used largely in symbolic language, ever notice that the apostles' motivation in preaching the gospel is never hell? Read your New Testament from Acts through just before revelation (revelation is obviously symbolic so a case for literal hell can hardly be made from it) and you will see that there is never a time when the gospel is preached to someone in a way that says, "If you don't believe, you will end up in hell." There are vague references to fire and punishment for misdeeds but these descriptions are rare in the text, indicating that punishment for non-belief was not a doctrine that was widely taught. Even Jesus's references to hell were symbolic, used in parables. The believers in the NT were Jews who believed Jesus was soon to return to establish the physical kingdom of god on the earth. That was their motivation in preaching the gospel, that as many people as possible would be accepted into this kingdom to be as near to god as possible, not to escape hell. The Jews did not have a real concept of hell like we do today. Our concept came mostly from pagan traditions such as Zoroastrianism that were adopted by the Catholic Church.

 

Also, your sun analogy is flawed. It's not the heat from the sun that damages your eyes; it's the light. So if the sun was not hot, you should still tell people not to look at it. Although, in fairness, it's the same radioactivity making it bright that also makes it hot, so if the sun was not hot, it would likely not be bright either. But if it was not bright (not emitting any photons), then life would cease to exist so we would not look at it anyway. But now I'm just being facetious.

[Aggie]

If hell is all that is making you a Christian, I'd say deconvert now.  

 

IMO, we have enough fears to fight in this life without making up ones for the next one.