Defending Hell

[TheOutsider]

 

 

See my later post about choice.

 

Okay, let's see...

 

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Riveting... Truly.

 

Did you mean former? Because I still don't think that really counts as choice... A plus or minus disposition button that god presses, against your will, that you have no say in whatsoever, whenever he interacts with you, apparently often without your knowledge, isn't really what I'd call choice... Care to retract that? Cause you're not making a good case for the claim that if your god is real, we still get to chose to do anything, and are therefor responsible enough for our pre-programmed actions to be punished for them. You can't have an omniscient god that created everything, and justified punishment at the same time. Pick one, and reconcile it with the rest of your contradictory mess of a supposedly perfect holy book.

 

And you do realize religious fanaticism has and continues to cause more real harm, real death, real destruction, and real suffering then us heathens that recognize that no one has all, or sometimes any, of the answers for life's big questions, right? You do understand how far people are willing to go when they believe they can not be wrong about something, right? You seem to be one that believes they can't be wrong about their religion. That's fucking dangerous. Of course, I'm just a dirty heathen that hates your god and lies about him not being real, nothing I say can break your knowledge, you absolutely can't be wrong. God is at your side and you see everything clear as day.

 

God is good because god is good because god is good because.....

 

By your own logic, if there is a god, religious fanatics will be the ones in some hell equivalent, one that would probably be infinitely more humane than the one your own myths loosely kinda sorta maybe but not really point to maybe but not really existing... If only because more harm has been done in the name of made up gods, then for any other reason. How can any action be wrong when god all mighty himself is at your side? Am I right?

 

Wait, I think I might have figured it out. You're just going to finger his prostate aren't you? I guess that would be more literal then the use of a strap on... I'd say lucky him, but he probably prefers having the little boys [that might be too far]ing him, if the catholic church  and various protestant preachers and whatnot are anything to go by.

 

 

Can a baby choose to be born? No. However, when it grows to have more understanding can it choose suicide or to live life to the fullest? Similarly although we did not choose to be here our Father willed it and it's up to us to commit suicide or choose to live the abundant life (John 10:10). Choosing to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not pre-programmed. Just as a parent warns their children not to make bad choices, God warned his children but they ignored his warning; but as any good parent who loves their children would do, He had a plan to rescue them, He posted bail & He's their lawyer & He's the judge too. All His children has to do is trust Him and follow what He says. Every good and perfect gift is from God (James 1:17). Sin is not from Him, that was a choice. Evil is a parasite on good, just like you have a healthy body with healthy cells but cancer invades it and causes unhealthy cells so it is with sin but God has the cure for cancer (sin).

 

 

 

Yes, I know that religionists/fanatics has caused a lot of harm throughout history, bible prophecy says it will happen so it just makes one trust the bible more. Satan is a deceiver so doing evil under the guise of religion IS his best trick (2 Corinth. 11:14). I believe the bible has given enough answers to help man find salvation. Believers are supposed to speak with authority (Acts 4:13), Jesus and his disciples were accused of being fanatics, being drunk, crazy etc. I see many people on this website who are quite likeable, altruistic etc. and not as dirty heathens. I've seen God's Providences in my life and nobody can take MY testimony from me (Revelation 12:11).

 

 

 

Ultimately God is the judge (Hebrews 10:30), religious persecutors will be judged by Him.

 

 

 

I disagree with you but I do acknowledge your right to disagree with me

 

 

Omniscient, all knowing, knows everything, nothing he doesn't know...

 

If your god is all knowing, knows everything, omniscient, nothing he doesn't know, etc... How can you then make the claim that nothing we do is pre-programmed? If he knows everything, then he knows exactly what will happen at any scale at any moment, nothing is uncertain, everything is meticulously planned out, or at the very least completely understood by him, because he knows everything... Nothing can happen that he doesn't know about. Every consequence of  his initial action was completely known to him. He went through with it anyway, he alone holds all the blame for everything, if he exists, he has no right to take that out on anyone but himself. Before he even made the waters of earth, he knew exactly what his actions would cause. And he did it anyway.

 

Your god doesn't get off the hook on evil either. He made everything knowing exactly what would happen every single moment along the way. It knew full well exactly what would happen from day one. It has no excuse, it cannot pass the blame. Your god, according to your book, created no less than absolutely everything. There is nothing he didn't personally make, and nothing he didn't know the consequence of making. Evil is exactly what he wanted it to be, and he is solely responsible for it. But I forget, logic and reason are unacceptable tools to employ when trying to understand god, nothing less than complete fear and terror are even remotely acceptable... I'm all out of those as far as gods are concerned. Also, Isaiah 45:7... Your bible claims he made all things, including evil...

 

Bible quotes and assertions ahead, I'm getting bored... How can you so easily ignore the problems with your god, and still be presumably honest with yourself?

 

Your bible also claims the sky is solid, the earth is the center of the universe, and in fact, is the only thing under heaven, and that doesn't mean space, that isn't a prop. Plant life existed before light. Light existed before the stars that produce light. Earth was just a sheet of water before god made land... Animals, even without vocal organs, can talk like people. You can influence the offspring of an animal by showing it striped poles, or trees, or whatever, when it mates... It claims at least 1.2 million Jews, plus assorted animals and children, left Egypt without so much as a single shred of archaeological evidence to support it, at all... You get the picture, how much does it have to get wrong before you consider that maybe it's all just a compilation of ancient Canaanite tribal stories and/or propaganda that has no actual bearing on reality?

 

Also, Satan, much like anything supernatural, isn't real... Or at the very least there is no reason to believe they are real, and plenty of reason to not believe they are real. But there's my pesky skepticism showing...

[duderonomy]

I could understand Biblegod knowing everything. I could understand Biblegod having everything go His way. But you can't reconcile those two things without admitting that Biblegod wants to send Bajillions of souls to his Hell.

 

Wants to send them to Hell, because that's what happens according to the Bible. God has free will, right?

[TheOutsider]

I could understand Biblegod knowing everything. I could understand Biblegod having everything go His way. But you can't reconcile those two things without admitting that Biblegod wants to send Bajillions of souls to his Hell.

 

Wants to send them to Hell, because that's what happens according to the Bible. God has free will, right?

 

Truly free will and perfect understanding of the consequences of every action he takes. He cannot claim ignorance for anything, and he cannot refuse blame for anything resulting from any of his actions, including those taken before earth was chronologically a thing. He has no right to pass any judgement on anyone but himself, alone. He is the only one with any responsibility for anything, in the event that he is real.

[duderonomy]

 

I could understand Biblegod knowing everything. I could understand Biblegod having everything go His way. But you can't reconcile those two things without admitting that Biblegod wants to send Bajillions of souls to his Hell.

 

Wants to send them to Hell, because that's what happens according to the Bible. God has free will, right?

 

Truly free will and perfect understanding of the consequences of every action he takes. He cannot claim ignorance for anything, and he cannot refuse blame for anything resulting from any of his actions, including those taken before earth was chronologically a thing. He has no right to pass any judgement on anyone but himself, alone. He is the only one with any responsibility for anything, in the event that he is real.

 

I guess so, but as scripture saith, who shall judge God?  

[TheOutsider]

 

 

I could understand Biblegod knowing everything. I could understand Biblegod having everything go His way. But you can't reconcile those two things without admitting that Biblegod wants to send Bajillions of souls to his Hell.

 

Wants to send them to Hell, because that's what happens according to the Bible. God has free will, right?

 

Truly free will and perfect understanding of the consequences of every action he takes. He cannot claim ignorance for anything, and he cannot refuse blame for anything resulting from any of his actions, including those taken before earth was chronologically a thing. He has no right to pass any judgement on anyone but himself, alone. He is the only one with any responsibility for anything, in the event that he is real.

 

I guess so, but as scripture saith, who shall judge God?  

 

 

Fuck the scriptures, no reason to believe they are anything more than ignorance fueled superstition and myth. I judge whatever I please, if god exists, it's not some ancient Canaanite jinn. And I have no reason to fear it, because it doesn't seem to concern itself with us anyway.

[duderonomy]

 

 

 

I could understand Biblegod knowing everything. I could understand Biblegod having everything go His way. But you can't reconcile those two things without admitting that Biblegod wants to send Bajillions of souls to his Hell.

 

Wants to send them to Hell, because that's what happens according to the Bible. God has free will, right?

 

Truly free will and perfect understanding of the consequences of every action he takes. He cannot claim ignorance for anything, and he cannot refuse blame for anything resulting from any of his actions, including those taken before earth was chronologically a thing. He has no right to pass any judgement on anyone but himself, alone. He is the only one with any responsibility for anything, in the event that he is real.

 

I guess so, but as scripture saith, who shall judge God?  

 

 

Fuck the scriptures, no reason to believe they are anything more than ignorance fueled superstition and myth. I judge whatever I please, if god exists, it's not some ancient Canaanite jinn. And I have no reason to fear it, because it doesn't seem to concern itself with us anyway.

 

 

TO, you know I'm joking around a little bit, right?   

 

I'm wondering if Thumby and Ironhorse are for real. What if the makers of this site send them up so we can shoot them down, and become solidified in our belief? We might be deceived!   I'm still joking...or am I?

 

I wasn't joking in #77 though.

[TheOutsider]

 

 

 

 

I could understand Biblegod knowing everything. I could understand Biblegod having everything go His way. But you can't reconcile those two things without admitting that Biblegod wants to send Bajillions of souls to his Hell.

 

Wants to send them to Hell, because that's what happens according to the Bible. God has free will, right?

 

Truly free will and perfect understanding of the consequences of every action he takes. He cannot claim ignorance for anything, and he cannot refuse blame for anything resulting from any of his actions, including those taken before earth was chronologically a thing. He has no right to pass any judgement on anyone but himself, alone. He is the only one with any responsibility for anything, in the event that he is real.

 

I guess so, but as scripture saith, who shall judge God?  

 

 

Fuck the scriptures, no reason to believe they are anything more than ignorance fueled superstition and myth. I judge whatever I please, if god exists, it's not some ancient Canaanite jinn. And I have no reason to fear it, because it doesn't seem to concern itself with us anyway.

 

 

TO, you know I'm joking around a little bit, right?   

 

I'm wondering if Thumby and Ironhorse are for real. What if the makers of this site send them up so we can shoot them down, and become solidified in our belief? We might be deceived!   I'm still joking...or am I?

 

I wasn't joking in #77 though.

 

 

Yeah, just kinda in a weird mood is all. No harm meant. As for the hypothetical, I'd say you need to stop trippin balls, bitch. Or at least share.

[Jeff]

 

No contradictions?

You are willfully ignorant then, as there are so many it will make your head spin if you read a good textual critic who actually knows what the bible is saying in all of the original languages.

Even in English it can't be reconciled.

The crucifixion. The resurrection. The exodus. Creation.

Let's just start with those. Read them again and watch the timelines and multiple parties involved.

Wasting my breath on you.

Read Ehrman if you dare

Yeah, to those who walk by sight it's nonsense but the bible truly is an amazing book.

No it isn't. It's just old.

You should have more respect for yourself than to give such a childish response if you really believe . You offered nothing.

This is a trolling response I think. Goodbye unless you actually have some kind of halfway thoughtful reply to offer.

I will converse politely with you if you care to do so.

[SerenelyBlue]

All Thumbelina has done so far is show me the detrimental effects of succumbing to a delusional cult.

[bornagainathiest]

Hello folks! 

 

BAA here with a helpful tip on the best only subjects to talk to Thumbelina about.

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The Bible.

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Ok, having covered that, please note that the following subjects are strictly off-limits and Thumbelina will not discuss them with you under any circumstances.

 

1. Astronomy

2. Astrophysics

3. Cosmology

4. Galactic astronomy

5. Planetary geology

6. Planetary science

7. Stellar astronomy

8. Analytical chemistry

9. Environmental chemistry

10. Inorganic chemistry

11. Nuclear chemistry

12. Organic chemistry

13. Physical chemistry

14. Solid-state chemistry

15. Supramolecular chemistry

16. Theoretical chemistry 

17. Astrochemistry

18. Biochemistry

19. Crystallography

20. Geochemistry

21. Materials science

22. Molecular physics

23. Photochemistry

24. Radiochemistry

25. Classical physics

26. Modern physics

27. Applied physics

28. Experimental physics

29. Theoretical physics

30. Computational physics

31. Atomic physics

32. Condensed matter physics

33. Classical, continuum, fluid and solid mechanics

34. Nuclear physics

35. Particle physics

36. Plasma physics

37. Quantum field theory

38. Quantum mechanics

39. Special relativity

40. General relativity

41. String theory

42. Thermodynamics

43. Climatology

44. Ecology

45. Environmental science

46. Geodesy

47. Geography (physical)

48. Geology

49. Seismology

50. Petrology

51. Geomorphology

52. Geophysics

53. Glaciology

54. Hydrology

55. Limnology

56. Meteorology

57. Oceanography

58. Paleoclimatology

59. Paleoecology

60. Speleology

61. Volcanology

62. Anatomy

63. Anthropology

64. Astrobiology

65. Biochemistry

66. Biogeography

67. Biophysics

68. Behavioral neuroscience

69. Botany

70. Cell biology

71. Cryobiology

72. Developmental biology

73. Ethnobiology

74. Ethology

75. Entomology

76. Cytology

77. Mycology

78. Evolutionary biology

79. Genetics

80. Immunology

81. Marine biology

82. Microbiology

83. Molecular biology

84. Neuroscience

85. Oncology

86. Palaeontology

87. Parasitology

88. Physiology

89. Radiobiology

90. Sociobiology

91. Toxicology

92. Zoology

93. Pathology

94. Archaeology

95. Criminology

96. Linguistics

97. Psychology

98. Sociology

99. Epidemiology

100. Pharmacology

 

If you avoid all of the above and focus only on the Bible, then you and she will get along just fine!

As far she's concerned, there's no need to talk about anything else but the Bible - because the Bible explains everything anyone would want to know about anything.  And, as a wonderful bonus...the Bible also explains itself.  So why would anyone want to talk to her about anything else but the Bible? 

 

Happy Bible-babbling and thanks for your attention. 

 

BAA.

 

 

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

midniterider: I understand you mean no harm. I just found Christianity to be harmful to my sanity so I dumped it. But it may be precisely what you need and make you happy.

 

 

 

I'm glad we can agree to disagree; that means we believe in religious liberty, that man should be able to choose to believe in a God or not

 

 

 

 

 

midniterider: If there is a Jesus he will need to find a non-biblical approach to reach me and then I will have to agree that I want to be reached.

 

 

 

Man, the Lord works in mysterious ways but when He actually gets your attention don't harden your heart (Hebrews 3:15), m'kay?

 

midniterider: One size does not fit all. One religion does not fit all. Just think how boring it will be in the Christian heaven with nothing to talk about or think about but Jesus. Gag. I have relatives who OCD about Jesus and it is painful to watch. Variety is the spice of life. Try some Zen or Pan Theism for a change.

 

 

 

Well, I've been saying that one size has to fit all in order to inhabit heaven (note, unity does not negate diversity, it's just that the ten commandments need to be followed implicitly; there'll be people of different but good temperaments there).

 

Heaven will never be boring, we'll be able to explore this infinitely vast universe, our finite minds cannot fathom what awaits (1 Corinthians 2:9). Being with Jesus will be like going through a perpetual honeymoon state ( it's an analogy, no lewd jokes please-- I'm talking to the pervs around here whose minds tend to be in the gutter). God is a God of variety, don't you see the diversity of creatures on this teensy incy wincy planet? Don't you see things in nature that have you in stitches (laughing uncontrollably)? It teaches something about God (Romans 1:20).No, no; no Zen or Pantheism---> John 10:1,7; John 14:6.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

disillusioned: I generally make a point of not debating Christian theology with theists. I don't think that hell exists, except in the mind of those who believe in it. But if Christianity is true, then it seems to me that hell needs no justification. God, being God, can do whatever the hell he wants (forgive the expression).

 

 

 

Hell does not exist YET. I told y'all that hell will be at the White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) when God unveils Himself & the wicked are consumed/destroyed.

 

 

 

disillusioned: What I'm more interested in is why anyone believes in hell in the first place. As I see it, no one has ever had any reason to think it exists, other than that they have been told it exists.

 

Just like the song says Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so, we believe in hell for the bible tells us so & when rightly understood the believer understands why it WILL exist temporarily.

 

 

 

disillusioned: But those who told them have no more knowledge of it than we do. It seems to me to be nothing more than a rather cheap, unsubtle scare tactic devised by those who wish to exercise religious authority over their fellow humans. It is psychologically damaging, and hence I think that perpetuating this belief is reprehensible.

 

 

 

Yeah, unfortunately some believers focus mainly on that to scare people into their churches but God says it's His goodness that draws us (Romans 2:4). Everlasting hell is psychologically damaging, methinks that's what Charles Darwin was taught hence his subsequent tangents, doubting His creators love for him or his existence.

 

disillusioned: So what I want Thumby (or anyone else, for that matter) to tell me is why she believes in the existence of hell. Of course, I don't have great expectations for her answer, but perhaps she will surprise me.

 

 

 

Hell is God's method of destroying those who reject eternal life-- death is an enemy ( 1 Corinthians 15:26).

 

Hell is a deterrent to people taking matters into their own hands -- truly, with many folks believing their wicked acts will be punished, this planet is not worse than it is. Without that belief there'll be total anarchy-- look at what the people had to reinstate after the French Revolution?

 

God's presence will be hell to those who embrace evil. His presence IS the fire-- the redeemed will walk in His fire and not be burned: Isaiah 33:14-15

14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

 

15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

[Thumbelina]

 

 

The Outsider: Omniscient, all knowing, knows everything, nothing he doesn't know...

 

If your god is all knowing, knows everything, omniscient, nothing he doesn't know, etc... How can you then make the claim that nothing we do is pre-programmed? If he knows everything, then he knows exactly what will happen at any scale at any moment, nothing is uncertain, everything is meticulously planned out, or at the very least completely understood by him, because he knows everything... Nothing can happen that he doesn't know about. Every consequence of his initial action was completely known to him. He went through with it anyway, he alone holds all the blame for everything, if he exists, he has no right to take that out on anyone but himself. Before he even made the waters of earth, he knew exactly what his actions would cause. And he did it anyway.

 

 

 

Picture two news reporters flying over a tunnel and they see some people driving erratically in a car and the driver is headed the wrong way into the tunnel where a train is fast approaching, There are loud speakers on the helicopter (one of the more modern silent ones) & a warning was sounded to the car driver but they did not heed because they hate reporters. From their vantage point the reporters saw what was going to happen-- a terrible collision. Did the reporters cause the driver to go in the wrong way although they could clearly see that they're about to get killed? Similarly, because God sees something does not mean that He causes it. Scripture explicitly says Satan did it -----> Matthew 13:28

 

 

 

The Outsider: Your god doesn't get off the hook on evil either. He made everything knowing exactly what would happen every single moment along the way. It knew full well exactly what would happen from day one. It has no excuse, it cannot pass the blame. Your god, according to your book, created no less than absolutely everything. There is nothing he didn't personally make, and nothing he didn't know the consequence of making. Evil is exactly what he wanted it to be, and he is solely responsible for it. But I forget, logic and reason are unacceptable tools to employ when trying to understand god, nothing less than complete fear and terror are even remotely acceptable... I'm all out of those as far as gods are concerned. Also, Isaiah 45:7... Your bible claims he made all things, including evil...

 

 

 

Are you one of those avid annotated bible readers? God made calamity/evil but not sin/transgressing the commandments. Fear is of the devil, if one sees our loving God one will fear no evil (Psalm 23:4)

 

 

The Outsider: Bible quotes and assertions ahead,

 

But of course

 

 

 

The Outsider: I'm getting bored...

 

 

Only boring people get bored!! You ain't boring are you?

 

 

 

The Outsider: How can you so easily ignore the problems with your god, and still be presumably honest with yourself?

 

 

 

There are no problems, I used to misunderstand some bible texts too -- Pharaoh's heart, God "discriminating against" animals with blemishes etc. but then John 7:17 happened for me & God is a genius! That bible has so many precious truth to unearth, I can't wait to find more. This week I learned a new object lesson; Jesus had to be buried in a borrowed tomb because He did not have to die for Himself but for mankind so He didn't need His own tomb!

 

The Outsider: Your bible also claims the sky is solid, the earth is the center of the universe, and in fact, is the only thing under heaven, and that doesn't mean space, that isn't a prop. Plant life existed before light. Light existed before the stars that produce light. Earth was just a sheet of water before god made land... Animals, even without vocal organs, can talk like people. You can influence the offspring of an animal by showing it striped poles, or trees, or whatever, when it mates... It claims at least 1.2 million Jews, plus assorted animals and children, left Egypt without so much as a single shred of archaeological evidence to support it, at all... You get the picture, how much does it have to get wrong before you consider that maybe it's all just a compilation of ancient Canaanite tribal stories and/or propaganda that has no actual bearing on reality?

 

 

 

This really sounds like that annotated bible that atheists love. I once saw a Christian who was refuting all of that but I don't have that info now. www.creation.com takes on many of the scientific arguments. I'll continue to talk about hell here. However, I'll give you a hint regarding this: " Plant life existed before light. Light existed before the stars that produce light."

 

 

 

^

 

 

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation 21:23

 

 

 

When I look at some of God's acts I see a contingency plan that took place. He knew man was going to spurn Him, that our sins will separate us from Him (Isaiah 59:2). He created time because He knew sin & sinners will just be a detour in His eternity & time will be needed to eradicate those who chose the suicide route.

 

 

The Outsider: Also, Satan, much like anything supernatural, isn't real... Or at the very least there is no reason to believe they are real, and plenty of reason to not believe they are real. But there's my pesky skepticism showing...

 

 

 

That's EXACTLY what he wants you to believe so he can deceive you. I'll be praying for you, brother.

[bornagainathiest]

See what I mean...?

[Thumbelina]

 

 

No contradictions?

You are willfully ignorant then, as there are so many it will make your head spin if you read a good textual critic who actually knows what the bible is saying in all of the original languages.

Even in English it can't be reconciled.

The crucifixion. The resurrection. The exodus. Creation.

Let's just start with those. Read them again and watch the timelines and multiple parties involved.

Wasting my breath on you.

Read Ehrman if you dare

Yeah, to those who walk by sight it's nonsense but the bible truly is an amazing book.

 

No it isn't. It's just old.

You should have more respect for yourself than to give such a childish response if you really believe . You offered nothing.

This is a trolling response I think. Goodbye unless you actually have some kind of halfway thoughtful reply to offer.

I will converse politely with you if you care to do so.

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I did not mean for my curtness to be rude. I have time constraints and can't go all over the place giving apologetics for so many different topics. I'm mainly sticking to the hell topic right now, I don't want unbelievers to end up there. I don't want anyone to think a loving God will burn people through the ceaseless ages.

[florduh]

I don't want anyone to think a loving God will burn people through the ceaseless ages. 

 

Is that so out of character for a god who created humans while knowing their future and fate, then regretted his creative act and drowned every living man, woman, child, newborn infant, bunny rabbit, kitty cat and puppy?

[Guest Furball]

"No contradictions, eh? Then what happened at Easter?"

 

 

Jesus rose from the dead on that Sunday.

 

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man (jesus) be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

 

Friday-->Saturday = 1 day Saturday-->Sunday = 2 days 

 

Contradiction no?

 

Christians are now trying to solve this by saying he died on a thursday instead of friday to make it work. But, hey, whatever helps you hold onto the delusion.

 

*I said i wouldn't respond to her again, but i just can't help it. Please be divine atheists and forgive me!

[Thumbelina]

 

I don't want anyone to think a loving God will burn people through the ceaseless ages.

Is that so out of character for a god who created humans while knowing their future and fate, then regretted his creative act and drowned every living man, woman, child, newborn infant, bunny rabbit, kitty cat and puppy?

 

 

Are they kept alive perpetually, feeling the agony of drowning? That's what eternal hell is!!! They were put out of existence.

[sdelsolray]

Yes, Thumbalina is beginning to show (during this most recent return to the Forum) the edges of her deeply imbedded narcissism (more will no doubt follow), her disdain for anything other than what she deems true and the depth and paucity of her religious delusions.  That, plus she's a bibliolatry addict, SDS style.

[bornagainathiest]

I forgive you, Catt.

 

You are absolved.

[bornagainathiest]

Florduh wasn't talking about the length of time they suffered, Thumbelina.

 

He was asking how an all-knowing God can regret a creative act he's always known that he would perform.

 

Please don't dodge!

[Guest Furball]

The bible is not contradictory,

 

 

As long as you read it from a devotional p.o.v. you will believe that. I never found a single contradiction in my 13 years as a christian. I suggest you read it from an objective p.o.v. instead. You'll see the contradictions in droves. 

 

An example would be: how could there be day and night for the first 3 days of creation if the sun, the moon, and the stars were not created till day 4?

[Thumbelina]

From my signature: shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, ... failure to take into account genre,...

 

Sometimes one needs to be aware of memes.

 

Those things happen on this website consistently.

My grandfather's wife had a brother who died two days ago, Monday would have been his birthday, he would have been 89; now, his Sister said that she will count him as being 89 & not 88. There's something called inclusive reckoning of time & that was common in that culture; Jesus and His friends spoke and wrote in harmony with the common literacy usage of the day. Any part of a day was counted as a whole day in that culture. Jesus and his disciples used idioms etc. a lot. You may research the Jewish encyclopedia to see how they calculated the days-- how they calculated on what day to circumcise a child was calculated like that.

[TheOutsider]

 

 

The Outsider: Omniscient, all knowing, knows everything, nothing he doesn't know...

 

If your god is all knowing, knows everything, omniscient, nothing he doesn't know, etc... How can you then make the claim that nothing we do is pre-programmed? If he knows everything, then he knows exactly what will happen at any scale at any moment, nothing is uncertain, everything is meticulously planned out, or at the very least completely understood by him, because he knows everything... Nothing can happen that he doesn't know about. Every consequence of his initial action was completely known to him. He went through with it anyway, he alone holds all the blame for everything, if he exists, he has no right to take that out on anyone but himself. Before he even made the waters of earth, he knew exactly what his actions would cause. And he did it anyway.

 

 

 

Picture two news reporters flying over a tunnel and they see some people driving erratically in a car and the driver is headed the wrong way into the tunnel where a train is fast approaching, There are loud speakers on the helicopter (one of the more modern silent ones) & a warning was sounded to the car driver but they did not heed because they hate reporters. From their vantage point the reporters saw what was going to happen-- a terrible collision. Did the reporters cause the driver to go in the wrong way although they could clearly see that they're about to get killed? Similarly, because God sees something does not mean that He causes it. Scripture explicitly says Satan did it -----> Matthew 13:28

 

But, you see, and I know this is just an exercise in futility at this point, I might as well be banging my head on a wall... But you see, the reporters in the helicopter didn't make the people in the car, or the train, or orchestrate the entire event. In this scenario. You, as the story teller, are god. You made every thing in that story happen. And if he exists, that's god's role too. Now, as god, would you personally blame and punish the entities you created for doing exactly as they where supposed to, and nothing else? The just answer, in case it's not clear, is no.

 

The Outsider: Your god doesn't get off the hook on evil either. He made everything knowing exactly what would happen every single moment along the way. It knew full well exactly what would happen from day one. It has no excuse, it cannot pass the blame. Your god, according to your book, created no less than absolutely everything. There is nothing he didn't personally make, and nothing he didn't know the consequence of making. Evil is exactly what he wanted it to be, and he is solely responsible for it. But I forget, logic and reason are unacceptable tools to employ when trying to understand god, nothing less than complete fear and terror are even remotely acceptable... I'm all out of those as far as gods are concerned. Also, Isaiah 45:7... Your bible claims he made all things, including evil...

 

 

Are you one of those avid annotated bible readers? God made calamity/evil but not sin/transgressing the commandments. Fear is of the devil, if one sees our loving God one will fear no evil (Psalm 23:4)

 

Actually, no, I've never read it. I hardly ever even got through genesis. Doesn't change the fact that if he created everything, everything is his fault. I was more of a cultural christian, the KJV was always a slog to even look at...

The Outsider: Bible quotes and assertions ahead,

 

But of course

 

Fuck...

 

The Outsider: I'm getting bored...

 

 

Only boring people get bored!! You ain't boring are you?

 

No, that's not even remotely correct...

 

 

The Outsider: How can you so easily ignore the problems with your god, and still be presumably honest with yourself?

 

There are no problems, I used to misunderstand some bible texts too -- Pharaoh's heart, God "discriminating against" animals with blemishes etc. but then John 7:17 happened for me & God is a genius! That bible has so many precious truth to unearth, I can't wait to find more. This week I learned a new object lesson; Jesus had to be buried in a borrowed tomb because He did not have to die for Himself but for mankind so He didn't need His own tomb!

 

Oh, shit... Now I just feel like I'm kicking a puppy... I don't like feeling like I'm kicking a puppy...

The Outsider: Your bible also claims the sky is solid, the earth is the center of the universe, and in fact, is the only thing under heaven, and that doesn't mean space, that isn't a prop. Plant life existed before light. Light existed before the stars that produce light. Earth was just a sheet of water before god made land... Animals, even without vocal organs, can talk like people. You can influence the offspring of an animal by showing it striped poles, or trees, or whatever, when it mates... It claims at least 1.2 million Jews, plus assorted animals and children, left Egypt without so much as a single shred of archaeological evidence to support it, at all... You get the picture, how much does it have to get wrong before you consider that maybe it's all just a compilation of ancient Canaanite tribal stories and/or propaganda that has no actual bearing on reality?

 

This really sounds like that annoted bible that atheists love. I once saw a Christian who was refuting all of that but I don't have that info now. www.creation.com takes on many of the scientific arguments. I'll continue to talk about hell here. However, I'll give you a hint regarding this: " Plant life existed before light. Light existed before the stars that produce light."

 

You know what they say, great minds and all that...

^

 

 

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation 21:23

 

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" - Call of Cthulhu. For the English speakers that translates to roughly "In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.". I can quote nonsensical fiction too.

 

When I look at some of God's acts I see a contingency plan that took place. He knew man was going to spurn Him, that our sins will separate us from Him (Isaiah 59:2). He created time because He knew sin & sinners will just be a detour in His eternity & time will be needed to eradicate those who chose the suicide route.

 

Now you're just fucking with me aren't you?

 

The Outsider: Also, Satan, much like anything supernatural, isn't real... Or at the very least there is no reason to believe they are real, and plenty of reason to not believe they are real. But there's my pesky skepticism showing...

 

 

 

That's EXACTLY what he wants you to believe so he can deceive you. I'll be praying for you, brother.

 

Yeah, I used to be a bit paranoid when I still believed in some grand celestial conspiracy for my soul too... Then I found skepticism, science, reason, a clear understanding of the difference between fiction and reality... Now I'm much more level headed. You should try it some time.

 

So formatting doesn't get weird.

 

See what I mean...?

 

 I think I do... Oh, and sorry for copying  the blue text thing, it was easier then fixing the quote boxes...

[Thumbelina]

 

The bible is not contradictory,

 

As long as you read it from a devotional p.o.v. you will believe that. I never found a single contradiction in my 13 years as a christian. I suggest you read it from an objective p.o.v. instead. You'll see the contradictions in droves. 

 

An example would be: how could there be day and night for the first 3 days of creation if the sun, the moon, and the stars were not created till day 4?

 

 

I don't know, scientists can't even explain the seven day cycle but man has been unable to change it.