Guest Furball Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 From my signature: shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, ... failure to take into account genre,... Sometimes one needs to be aware of memes. Those things happen on this website consistently. My grandfather's wife had a brother who died two days ago, Monday would have been his birthday, he would have been 89; now, his Sister said that she will count him as being 89 & not 88. There's something called inclusive reckoning of time & that was common in that culture; Jesus and His friends spoke and wrote in harmony with the common literacy usage of the day. Any part of a day was counted as a whole day in that culture. Jesus and his disciples used idioms etc. a lot. You may research the Jewish encyclopedia to see how they calculated the days-- how they calculated on what day to circumcise a child was calculated like that. I am sorry, but no. 2 days is 2 days. Were right back to the 2+2 = 5 jargon. This thread is about defending hell, and i don't want to hijack the thread anymore. But, c'mon thumbs, who are you kidding? Let's put our critical thinking caps on and get back to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The bible is not contradictory, As long as you read it from a devotional p.o.v. you will believe that. I never found a single contradiction in my 13 years as a christian. I suggest you read it from an objective p.o.v. instead. You'll see the contradictions in droves. An example would be: how could there be day and night for the first 3 days of creation if the sun, the moon, and the stars were not created till day 4? I don't know, scientists can't even explain the seven day cycle but man has been unable to change it. I hope you're joking... I really hope you're joking... Please tell me you're joking... I'm only getting warm beer in pastafarian hell aren't I? Shiiiiiiiit... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Thumbelina. "I don't know, scientists can't even explain the seven day cycle but man has been unable to change it." . . . Translation from the original Thumb-speak: I will never, ever admit that this is a bona fide scriptural contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 27, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted August 27, 2015 Are they kept alive perpetually, feeling the agony of drowning? That's what eternal hell is!!! They were put out of existence. Really? That's the best you have? I guess you don't want to address the issue. Sadly typical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 From my signature: shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, ... failure to take into account genre,... Sometimes one needs to be aware of memes. Those things happen on this website consistently. My grandfather's wife had a brother who died two days ago, Monday would have been his birthday, he would have been 89; now, his Sister said that she will count him as being 89 & not 88. There's something called inclusive reckoning of time & that was common in that culture; Jesus and His friends spoke and wrote in harmony with the common literacy usage of the day. Any part of a day was counted as a whole day in that culture. Jesus and his disciples used idioms etc. a lot. You may research the Jewish encyclopedia to see how they calculated the days-- how they calculated on what day to circumcise a child was calculated like that. I am sorry, but no. 2 days is 2 days. Were right back to the 2+2 = 5 jargon. This thread is about defending hell, and i don't want to hijack the thread anymore. But, c'mon thumbs, who are you kidding? Let's put our critical thinking caps on and get back to reality. Do some research about Jewish time reckoning please. I don't have more time to stay on here now. I was able to visit this week but in conversations I've had with atheists in the past, I did some reading and God created darkness too, maybe that had something to do with how He calculated it, maybe one day I'll look to see what the creation.com people have to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Are they kept alive perpetually, feeling the agony of drowning? That's what eternal hell is!!! They were put out of existence.Really? That's the best you have? I guess you don't want to address the issue. Sadly typical. They should have entered the ark, it's a microcosm of what the final judgment will be like. I've spent too much time on here already, you guys are preventing me from getting work done. Gotta go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumbelina Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The bible is not contradictory, As long as you read it from a devotional p.o.v. you will believe that. I never found a single contradiction in my 13 years as a christian. I suggest you read it from an objective p.o.v. instead. You'll see the contradictions in droves. An example would be: how could there be day and night for the first 3 days of creation if the sun, the moon, and the stars were not created till day 4? I don't know, scientists can't even explain the seven day cycle but man has been unable to change it. I hope you're joking... I really hope you're joking... Please tell me you're joking... I'm only getting warm beer in pastafarian hell aren't I? Shiiiiiiiit... Why not a five day weekly cycle or a ten day one etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 The bible is not contradictory, As long as you read it from a devotional p.o.v. you will believe that. I never found a single contradiction in my 13 years as a christian. I suggest you read it from an objective p.o.v. instead. You'll see the contradictions in droves. An example would be: how could there be day and night for the first 3 days of creation if the sun, the moon, and the stars were not created till day 4? I don't know, scientists can't even explain the seven day cycle but man has been unable to change it. I hope you're joking... I really hope you're joking... Please tell me you're joking... I'm only getting warm beer in pastafarian hell aren't I? Shiiiiiiiit... Why not a five day weekly cycle or a ten day one etc.? Because that's not what people agreed to for an arbitrary standardization. I'm sure there's more to it than that, but it's arbitrary none the less... Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week Yeah, Just a little more to it than that... And not entirely arbitrary, but not divinely ordained either. Couldn't remember if it being because of the lunar cycle was right or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 27, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted August 27, 2015 "By God, we'll make reality line up with our mythology no matter what." - Every Practicing Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Translation of the original Thumb-speak message to Catt: "I still won't ever admit that this is a bona fide scriptural contradiction." . . . . . Translation of the original Thumb-speak message to Florduh: "God is perfect and wonderful and NOTHING is ever his fault! They only have themselves to blame for dying like that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 From my signature: shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, ... failure to take into account genre,... Sometimes one needs to be aware of memes. Those things happen on this website consistently. My grandfather's wife had a brother who died two days ago, Monday would have been his birthday, he would have been 89; now, his Sister said that she will count him as being 89 & not 88. There's something called inclusive reckoning of time & that was common in that culture; Jesus and His friends spoke and wrote in harmony with the common literacy usage of the day. Any part of a day was counted as a whole day in that culture. Jesus and his disciples used idioms etc. a lot. You may research the Jewish encyclopedia to see how they calculated the days-- how they calculated on what day to circumcise a child was calculated like that. I am sorry, but no. 2 days is 2 days. Were right back to the 2+2 = 5 jargon. This thread is about defending hell, and i don't want to hijack the thread anymore. But, c'mon thumbs, who are you kidding? Let's put our critical thinking caps on and get back to reality. Do some research about Jewish time reckoning please. I don't have more time to stay on here now. I was able to visit this week but in conversations I've had with atheists in the past, I did some reading and God created darkness too, maybe that had something to do with how He calculated it, maybe one day I'll look to see what the creation.com people have to say about it. You can't leave yet? You just got here. Right when my heart was starting to get soft for Jesus too. Dammit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Checkmate atheists! You can't explain why humans chose to count days in groups of seven! Things can only be counted in groups of seven if God is real! Now if you will excuse me, the Holy Spirit has called me to be somewhere else now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Thumbelina. "I don't know, scientists can't even explain the seven day cycle but man has been unable to change it." . . . Translation from the original Thumb-speak: I will never, ever admit that this is a bona fide scriptural contradiction. Thumby's statement reveals much. It shows she is wedded to the "seven day cycle" claim, a bald assertion alleged by fringe creationists which is wrought with many logical fallacies (e.g., non sequitur, circular reasoning, ad hoc, post hoc, strawman, among others). As far as creationist claims go, this one is near the bottom-of-the-barrel. And to cap it off, Thumby adds claims that scientists "can't even explain [it]" and "man is unable to change it". No evidence, no argument, just more mere assertions. But what I'm getting at is that this is evidence of Thumby's lack of understanding, knowledge and curiosity of any of the 100 sciences you listed above in a prior post. This may explain why she avoids discussing science like a plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 It's ok, Rider. Thumby's got the worst case of Biblical C.LA.W.S. I've ever seen. Like Arnie...she'll be back! Complusive LAst Word Syndrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yes indeed, Sdelsolray! She confines herself exclusively to faith-informed dialog and avoids evidence-informed dialog (as you say) like the plagues of Egypt and Revelation combined! Why? Because she's instructed to do so by the Bible - that's why. Hebrews 11 (esp. verses 1 & 2) tell her to understand by faith, not evidence. This is a perfectly circular argument that she's unwilling to ever give up. She has faith only in what the Bible says because the Bible tells her to do so. All else is totally excluded. Game (and sanity) over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I thought it was a 28 day cycle.hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I thought it was a 28 day cycle.hmmm. Yeah, divide by four, though not every month is 28 days... Or rather 29.5~ days according to google... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Blah Blah Blah I'm so sorry to recall you to the question, Thumby, but I asked why you believe in hell, not what you believe about hell. I'm already very familiar with a number of different Christian doctrines about hell. I need no education on this topic. I want to know why you think it is true. The closest you came to answering this question was to quote a children's song. I'm sorry, but this is the very definition of ducking the question. The equivalent would be if you asked me why my favorite sport is hockey, and I answered with "The good old hockey game is the best game you can name, and the best game you can name is the good old hockey game." This is just to reiterate that you do believe. It says nothing of why. You believe in the bible. We all get that. What I want to know is why. I'll be here if you decide you want to actually answer my question, but I won't be holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 They should have entered the ark, it's a microcosm of what the final judgment will be like. I've spent too much time on here already, you guys are preventing me from getting work done. Gotta go. Shame on all of us for dragging Thumby in here and forcing her to post stuff and keeping her from getting work done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Why not a five day weekly cycle or a ten day one etc.? The Egyptians had a ten day "week" and the Romans had an eight day "week" as well. All while your buddy jesus was puttering about. The Babylonians are the ones who came up with the seven day week. They came up with a sabbath day as well (and by "as well" I mean before there were Jews...so first...they invented the sabbath). They also held "sabbath" on the 19th day of the month because it was roughly the forty-ninth day of the previous month. Which is a strange thing to do considering the Jews also have a strange forty-ninth day happening in their calendar (only one though) after Passover (we'll call it Pentecost). Now in the Greco-Roman world our seven day week is not from the Jewish influence as many wrongly believe but from astrology. A couple hundred years before jesus was grappling the evil demons with bible verses the whole astrology thing started to really pick up in the east (Babylon/Chaldea...where the magi would have come from). This form of astrology named a god for each hour of the day and the god at dawn ruled that day. There were seven gods (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) and therefor ultimately seven days once the chart was created. The names were mostly replaced later on with Norse gods and we use times for each hour but it's still the same week from the same origin. mwc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 From my signature: shockingly superficial & wooden literalistic interpretations, ... failure to take into account genre,... Sometimes one needs to be aware of memes. Those things happen on this website consistently. My grandfather's wife had a brother who died two days ago, Monday would have been his birthday, he would have been 89; now, his Sister said that she will count him as being 89 & not 88. There's something called inclusive reckoning of time & that was common in that culture; Jesus and His friends spoke and wrote in harmony with the common literacy usage of the day. Any part of a day was counted as a whole day in that culture. Jesus and his disciples used idioms etc. a lot. You may research the Jewish encyclopedia to see how they calculated the days-- how they calculated on what day to circumcise a child was calculated like that. I've done a lot of research into calendar and dating systems including reading the Jewish Encyclopedia and what you say makes no sense given what you were asked. The text quoted said "three days and three nights" it's explicit. The common usage of the day would mean roughly what it means today. A day would be the time with sunlight and night would be the time absent the sun. We can play around with that a bit but not too much considering how explicit it is. So by day do they mean dawn to dusk (sunrise to sunset)? Or from awakening to shut-eye? Then by night sundown to sun-up? Or shut-eye to awakening? We've only got a limited number of choices. But we can see that we need to go overnight three times. That's a requirement by the three nights. So can we do it from Friday night to Sunday morning just counting days? No. There are two nights. No more. Friday night (dusk to dawn or shut-eye to awakening) and Saturday night (dusk to dawn or shut-eye to awakening). There is no third night and, again, the third night is explicitly mentioned and therefor required but absent. Friday to Sunday is not enough time no matter how you reckon it. This includes using any method the Jews could muster at the time. Late Edit: I didn't notice how poorly you understand inclusive counting of time versus exclusive. Your example is not even close. The ancients used to hold the Olympics every five years. Which is strange because they only held them every four years. They wrote they held them every five years though. How does this work? Inclusive counting. Here's a quick example using modern dates counted inclusively: Here's a more proper example: Year 1 (2012/Olympics) -> 2 (2013) -> 3 (2014) -> 4 (2015) -> Year 5/1 (2016/Olympics) -> 2 (2017) Olympic years pull double duty. They're year 1 at the start of a count and year 5 at the end. In mid-series they're only counted once as usual. You'd never just round up to the next number outside the series because you didn't make it there. That's not inclusive. The times something like this may happen is reckoning the regnal length where someone rounds up to lengthen the reign of someone. That's still not considered inclusive however. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Checkmate atheists! You can't explain why humans chose to count days in groups of seven! Things can only be counted in groups of seven if God is real! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 There is no defense for hell. I'm just a messenger. Just like a military officer would be a messager if your son died. I Dont make the rules. Just because we Dont like something doesn't change anything Call me when science can stop humans from.dying and help us become Immortal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 Some religions Dont even believe in hell..yet you still Dont believe in them. So hell isn't the issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 There is no defense for hell Which proves that if there is a God he cannot be omnibenevolent, which rules Abrahamic religions out. The problem with hell was never an emotional one, but a logical one. Of course it is in the realm of possibility that there is a God and he is an asshole and decided to torture his flawed creations for being flawed, and that would be a shitty reality but one we would have to accept if it turned out to be true nonetheless. The logical problem stems from the fact that most religions that claim some form of hell also claim their God is ultimately good, which is a major contradiction in reasoning that forces us to conclude that the religions which make this claim are most likely false. This conclusion is reached not because we want it to be false, rather it is simply the result of applying Occam's razor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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