Baptists

[ironhorse]

This post shows no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs, Ironhorse.

 

No sign? I wasn't posting a skeptical analysis of my Christian faith, I posted what I have accepted as part of my faith and practice.

 

 

If you don't want to do that or can't do that, please say so.

 

As I have said here more than once, I have already been through the process of skeptically appraising God, the Bible, and the Christian faith. I spent several years doing that and have spent all my life trying to get to the truth of things. I don't claim to know everything about God or the scriptures, but what I know is enough for me to believe it's true. It is what I believe.

 

The reason, I think, you never seem to accept my answer is that you do not agree with my answer; It is not your conclusion. That is fine with me. I may be totally wrong in your view, but that's the way we are as human beings, we often view things differently and come to conflicting conclusions.

 

 

 

Posting long extracts of dogma is NO kind of substitute for skeptically appraising your own beliefs.

 

Why, if what I posted I consider settle truth, should I be in a constant skeptical mood of my faith? 

Please let me know (before posting anything else) if you will be skeptically appraising anything of your Baptist beliefs.

 

What belief should I take a second look with a skeptic's eyes... freedom of religion or non-religion?

If you simply proceed in your current dogma-laden mode of posting, I'll take that as a definite, 'No'.

Thanks,

BAA.

 

 

These are my answers BAA. I hope they have helped you understand my viewpoint better. I will look back to what I have posted on my beliefs to see if I need to add anything else. Please understand if I do.

 

One of my major reasoning in doing this thread why to be open as to where I was coming from in Christian viewpoint.

 

 

Thanks,

ironhorse

[mymistake]

 

As I have said here more than once, I have already been through the process of skeptically appraising God, the Bible, and the Christian faith. I spent several years doing that and have spent all my life trying to get to the truth of things.  

 

 

I do not believe you.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

As I have said here more than once, I have already been through the process of skeptically appraising God, the Bible, and the Christian faith. I spent several years doing that and have spent all my life trying to get to the truth of things.  

 

 

I do not believe you.

 

 

I don't believe him either.  I believe he believes this, but he is lying to himself.

[bornagainathiest]

This post shows no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs, Ironhorse.

 

No sign? I wasn't posting a skeptical analysis of my Christian faith, I posted what I have accepted as part of my faith and practice.

 

Yes.  I can see that what you posted showed no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs.

 

If you don't want to do that or can't do that, please say so.

 

As I have said here more than once, I have already been through the process of skeptically appraising God, the Bible, and the Christian faith. I spent several years doing that and have spent all my life trying to get to the truth of things. I don't claim to know everything about God or the scriptures, but what I know is enough for me to believe it's true. It is what I believe.

 

The reason, I think, you never seem to accept my answer is that you do not agree with my answer; It is not your conclusion. That is fine with me. I may be totally wrong in your view, but that's the way we are as human beings, we often view things differently and come to conflicting conclusions.

 

I've already challenged you on your assertion that I have never agreed with anything you've written and so far you've failed to make good on that assertion. 

 

Here...  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/69812-on-the-dishonest-engagement-of-doubt-excellent-read/#.Vi103LfhBD8...in post # 6.

 

I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that I've never agreed with any explanation or reply that you've posted, Ironhorse.

 

Posting long extracts of dogma is NO kind of substitute for skeptically appraising your own beliefs.

 

Why, if what I posted I consider settle truth, should I be in a constant skeptical mood of my faith?  

 

For the very reason I explained in my last paragraph to Duderonomy, earlier today.

 

Please let me know (before posting anything else) if you will be skeptically appraising anything of your Baptist beliefs.

 

What belief should I take a second look with a skeptic's eyes... freedom of religion or non-religion?  

 

If you've spent years skeptically appraising your faith, then you will know exactly which belief needs a second look.  By asking me, you indicate that you haven't actually done what you claim for all those years.

 

If you simply proceed in your current dogma-laden mode of posting, I'll take that as a definite, 'No'.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

These are my answers BAA. I hope they have helped you understand my viewpoint better. I will look back to what I have posted on my beliefs to see if I need to add anything else. Please understand if I do.

 

One of my major reasoning in doing this thread why to be open as to where I was coming from in Christian viewpoint.

 

 

Thanks,

ironhorse

 

In the light of this, Ironhorse I find that like MyMistake and sdelsolray, I cannot accept your claim (that you have spent years skeptically appraising your faith) on faith.

 

You are asking me to accept this from you on faith, knowing full well that in the Lions Den NOTHING is accepted on faith.

 

Therefore, the best (and only) way you can make good on your claim is to go ahead and show me exactly how you have skeptically appraised your faith.

 

Since you say that you have since spent several years doing so, this should be no problem for you.

.

.

.

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I have to agree with mymistake, TinPony.  What's the point of this futile exercise.  Even for those of us willing to take the bait, it's still only going to end with "threatening eternal conscious torment in hell is both using force and coercion; therefore the baptists are wrong."  You've got to realize this; you've been here long enough.

By they way, TinPony, you'll notice that I was correct in this prophecy.  I will PM you my contact info so that you can start paying your tithes to the One True Prophet^TM rather than wasting it on your local Baptist pastor.

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

Since you have spent years skeptically appraising your faith, I'm eagerly looking forward to seeing you post a worked example of this activity in this thread.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[midniterider]

BAA: This post shows no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs, Ironhorse.

 

IH: "The reason, I think, you never seem to accept my answer is that you do not agree with my answer; It is not your conclusion. That is fine with me. I may be totally wrong in your view, but that's the way we are as human beings, we often view things differently and come to conflicting conclusions."

 

Must an analysis of something necessarily result in only one conclusion? Isn't a skeptical appraisal just stacking the deck against something as approaching something with a pre-conceived mindset of faith stacking the deck in favor of something? I think a fair appraisal is approaching some topic with little to no assumptions. 

 

BAA feels something must have physical evidence or be replicated to be real.

IH feels something may be real without physical evidence or replication.

I doubt there will be any agreeing going on here.

 

Is the scientific method a mandate in the Lion's Den? Looks for the word science in the Lion's Den description. Hmm.

[bornagainathiest]

BAA: This post shows no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs, Ironhorse.

 

IH: "The reason, I think, you never seem to accept my answer is that you do not agree with my answer; It is not your conclusion. That is fine with me. I may be totally wrong in your view, but that's the way we are as human beings, we often view things differently and come to conflicting conclusions."

 

Must an analysis of something necessarily result in only one conclusion? Isn't a skeptical appraisal just stacking the deck against something as approaching something with a pre-conceived mindset of faith stacking the deck in favor of something? I think a fair appraisal is approaching some topic with little to no assumptions. 

 

BAA feels something must have physical evidence or be replicated to be real.

IH feels something may be real without physical evidence or replication.

I doubt there will be any agreeing going on here.

 

Is the scientific method a mandate in the Lion's Den? Looks for the word science in the Lion's Den description. Hmm.

 

So let Ironhorse bring his many years worth of skeptical appraisals of his faith, Rider.

 

Whatever form it takes, I'll be interested to see it.

 

Wouldn't you like to see it too?

[sdelsolray]

 

BAA: This post shows no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs, Ironhorse.

 

IH: "The reason, I think, you never seem to accept my answer is that you do not agree with my answer; It is not your conclusion. That is fine with me. I may be totally wrong in your view, but that's the way we are as human beings, we often view things differently and come to conflicting conclusions."

 

Must an analysis of something necessarily result in only one conclusion? Isn't a skeptical appraisal just stacking the deck against something as approaching something with a pre-conceived mindset of faith stacking the deck in favor of something? I think a fair appraisal is approaching some topic with little to no assumptions. 

 

BAA feels something must have physical evidence or be replicated to be real.

IH feels something may be real without physical evidence or replication.

I doubt there will be any agreeing going on here.

 

Is the scientific method a mandate in the Lion's Den? Looks for the word science in the Lion's Den description. Hmm.

 

So let Ironhorse bring his many years worth of skeptical appraisals of his faith, Rider.

 

Whatever form it takes, I'll be interested to see it.

 

Wouldn't you like to see it too?

 

 

 

Well, IH did say he twice read The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.  His only question/comment I remember him making here about it was, "If man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

[mymistake]

 

Well, IH did say he twice read The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.  His only question/comment I remember him making here about it was, "If man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

 

 

 

And of course we always answered him back with "If God made Adam from dirt then why is there still dirt?".

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

BAA: This post shows no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs, Ironhorse.

 

IH: "The reason, I think, you never seem to accept my answer is that you do not agree with my answer; It is not your conclusion. That is fine with me. I may be totally wrong in your view, but that's the way we are as human beings, we often view things differently and come to conflicting conclusions."

 

Must an analysis of something necessarily result in only one conclusion? Isn't a skeptical appraisal just stacking the deck against something as approaching something with a pre-conceived mindset of faith stacking the deck in favor of something? I think a fair appraisal is approaching some topic with little to no assumptions. 

 

BAA feels something must have physical evidence or be replicated to be real.

IH feels something may be real without physical evidence or replication.

I doubt there will be any agreeing going on here.

 

Is the scientific method a mandate in the Lion's Den? Looks for the word science in the Lion's Den description. Hmm.

 

So let Ironhorse bring his many years worth of skeptical appraisals of his faith, Rider.

 

Whatever form it takes, I'll be interested to see it.

 

Wouldn't you like to see it too?

 

 

 

Well, IH did say he twice read The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin.  His only question/comment I remember him making here about it was, "If man evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

 

 

Perhaps Ironhorse has a veil over his mind, which dulls it whenever he reads any science, so that he cannot understand it properly?

 

Like a secular version of this...?

 

2 Corinthians 3 : 13 - 15.

 

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 

14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 

15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.  

[midniterider]

 

BAA: This post shows no sign of you skeptically appraising your Baptist beliefs, Ironhorse.

 

IH: "The reason, I think, you never seem to accept my answer is that you do not agree with my answer; It is not your conclusion. That is fine with me. I may be totally wrong in your view, but that's the way we are as human beings, we often view things differently and come to conflicting conclusions."

 

Must an analysis of something necessarily result in only one conclusion? Isn't a skeptical appraisal just stacking the deck against something as approaching something with a pre-conceived mindset of faith stacking the deck in favor of something? I think a fair appraisal is approaching some topic with little to no assumptions. 

 

BAA feels something must have physical evidence or be replicated to be real.

IH feels something may be real without physical evidence or replication.

I doubt there will be any agreeing going on here.

 

Is the scientific method a mandate in the Lion's Den? Looks for the word science in the Lion's Den description. Hmm.

 

So let Ironhorse bring his many years worth of skeptical appraisals of his faith, Rider.

 

Whatever form it takes, I'll be interested to see it.

 

Wouldn't you like to see it too?

 

 

I believe his many years appraisal, skeptical or otherwise is that he likes the Jesus. I think that's about all you're going to get.

[ironhorse]

1. Baptists contend that there can be no forced coercion in matters of religious faith or non-faith. God Himself does not force people. Religion is purely voluntary. Baptists support the freedom of the individual conscience to choose to worship God or not worship.

Baptists do not agree with a state sponsored religion or a state church. Historically, Baptists have played a key role in encouraging religious freedom and separation of church and state.

 

__________________________________________________

 

 

Please provide empirical evidence of yet another set of your mere assertions.

 

~Sdelsolray

 

 

My mere assertions?

I mean you may think I’m an idiot but saying what I posted are my mere assertions is a bit unfair and far from the truth.

Have you ever read the history of the Baptists?

 

History books speak of the evidence of the  Baptists stand on religious freedom that confirm what I posted.

 

These are also views I have observed from Baptists I have met and known. 

[mymistake]

1. Baptists contend that there can be no forced coercion in matters of religious faith or non-faith. God Himself does not force people. Religion is purely voluntary. Baptists support the freedom of the individual conscience to choose to worship God or not worship.

 

Baptists do not agree with a state sponsored religion or a state church. Historically, Baptists have played a key role in encouraging religious freedom and separation of church and state.

 

__________________________________________________

 

 

Please provide empirical evidence of yet another set of your mere assertions.

 

~Sdelsolray

 

 

My mere assertions?

I mean you may think I’m an idiot but saying what I posted are my mere assertions is a bit unfair and far from the truth.

Have you ever read the history of the Baptists?

 

History books speak of the evidence of the  Baptists stand on religious freedom that confirm what I posted.

 

These are also views I have observed from Baptists I have met and known. 

 

 

So you are not asserting the world is actually flat.  You are only asserting that some people believe the world is flat.

 

There is a huge difference between those two claims.  One is reasonable and the other isn't.

[Shinzon]

Totally irrelevant but I just noticed what it says above authentic Christian believer for iron horses profile.

[Shinzon]

Why are Baptists any better then any form of Christian they still believe wacky stuff that as far as I can see is baseless and without evidence?

[duderonomy]

Totally irrelevant but I just noticed what it says above authentic Christian believer for iron horses profile.

 

Hi Shinzon. I'm not sure, but I think that is automatically put there by the site and goes by the number of posts. Mine has changed several times over the years and I've never changed it myself, although I think one can change it after a certain number of posts.

[ironhorse]

 

The Sabbath?

 

 

 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.

 

~ Colossians 2:16 

 

I guess you have to choose between Jesus and Paul.  After all, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, and Jesus kept the Sabbath.  If you choose Paul over Jesus, maybe you should call yourself Paulian instead of Christian.

 

 

 

Why should I do that?

 

Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath by religious leaders.

 

There is no contradiction in what Jesus taught or what Paul wrote.

 

It is the spirit of the law, not the letter, that sets us free in Christ. 

[sdelsolray]

1. Baptists contend that there can be no forced coercion in matters of religious faith or non-faith. God Himself does not force people. Religion is purely voluntary. Baptists support the freedom of the individual conscience to choose to worship God or not worship.

 

Baptists do not agree with a state sponsored religion or a state church. Historically, Baptists have played a key role in encouraging religious freedom and separation of church and state.

 

__________________________________________________

 

 

Please provide empirical evidence of yet another set of your mere assertions.

 

~Sdelsolray

 

 

My mere assertions?

I mean you may think I’m an idiot but saying what I posted are my mere assertions is a bit unfair and far from the truth.

Have you ever read the history of the Baptists?

 

History books speak of the evidence of the  Baptists stand on religious freedom that confirm what I posted.

 

These are also views I have observed from Baptists I have met and known. 

 

 

Well, I made that post on October 18, 2015, before I learned that you had plagiarized your original post in this thread (as well as post #61) without attribution to the original source.  So, they aren't your mere assertions.  They are the mere assertions of George Daniel and William Pinson.  You finally acknowledged the true authorship on Ootober 28, 2015 in your post #68 in this thread.

 

So, I was wrong in accusing you of making "yet another set of your mere assertions".  I wish to change that now to:

 

"Please provide empirical evidence of yet another set of mere assertions that you plagiarized without proper source attribution."

 

You appear to not understand the difference between a mere assertion and evidence.  I'm not inclined to take the time to explain the difference to you, as I strongly suspect it will go in one ear and out the other.

[ironhorse]

this kind of baptist?

 

 

Members of the infamous right-wing Christian hate group Westboro Baptist Church are planning to picket outside Davis' offices on Monday, reports Fox 2 Now St. Louis. According to a statement issued by the church, the group is targeting Davis because they believe she is a hypocrite about marriage, based on her multiple divorces.

"That man that Kim Davis is living with, and calling her husband, IS NOT!" the church wrote in a press release issued to the news station. "Her husband is Dwain Wallace, who she married when she was 18-years-old. It does not matter how many years you pile on! It was adultery at the beginning, adultery in the middle and it is indeed adultery today!"

On Twitter, the group said Davis' divorces and subsequent remarriages are just as bad as "fag marriage."

 

 

The Westboro Baptist Church does not practice or represent historic Baptist beliefs.

 

They are in gross error.

[mymistake]

 

 

The Westboro Baptist Church does not practice or represent historic Baptist beliefs.

 

They are in gross error.

 

 

Every Christian sect is a revolution of the preceding faith.  Baptists revolted from Lutherans.  Lutherans revolted from Catholicism.  Catholicism was a revolt from Pauline Christianity.  Pauline Christianity was a revolt from whatever existed before Paul.  That in turn was a revolt from Ezra's religion.  Ezra's religion was a revolt from Yahwehism.  Yahwehism was a revolt from Hebrew polytheism.  Hebrew polytheism was a revolt from an older indigenous paganism.

 

Every religion is in gross error.  Why would the creator of the universe need you to worship it?  Why would the creator care what you think about anything?  The concept makes as much sense as you worrying about what a fruit fly thinks.  Are you angry at the fruit flies that do not yet realize that you exist?

[duderonomy]

I read somewhere that some Baptists believe they are the original 'church', in an unbroken line from the churches in the Bible until today (although they were called by different names in the way way back), the way that Catholics think the Pope is in an unbroken line from Peter and thus they are the original 'church'. 

 

Ironhorse, I'm just wondering what your take is on this. 

[Jeff]

The Westboro Baptist Church does not practice or represent historic Baptist beliefs.

 

They are in gross error.

Maybe not historic Baptists beliefs, I don't know or care.

 

However, I've heard Westboro people speak and they don't do anything that I am aware of without solid biblical reasoning and can tell you why they do it based on the bible.

Would you be able to debate them biblically for what you disagree with them over? I personally think they have captured both the spirit and the letter of the bible as a whole. They are a living example of biblical teaching and how it is incompatible with current society that embraces human rights.

 

My main argument would be love. They have become sounding brass and clanging cymbals. It profits them nothing. But after listening to members that have deconverted from their group, they clearly beleive that they are showing tough love for the greater good of the salvation of the listener. And they have scripture to back it up.

I don't believe scripture but you do. I wonder how you might fare against them and their beliefs to show them just how "wrong" they are.

[midniterider]

 

 

The Sabbath?

 

 

 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.

 

~ Colossians 2:16 

 

I guess you have to choose between Jesus and Paul.  After all, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, and Jesus kept the Sabbath.  If you choose Paul over Jesus, maybe you should call yourself Paulian instead of Christian.

 

 

 

Why should I do that?

 

Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath by religious leaders.

 

There is no contradiction in what Jesus taught or what Paul wrote.

 

It is the spirit of the law, not the letter, that sets us free in Christ. 

 

 

Sets us free from what?

[Mythra]

For ironhorse:

 

skepticism doesn't mean you have to start from a place of doubt about your beliefs.  Only that you are willing to try and analyze some things independently, and come to your own conclusions without looking up the answer in the Baptist manual of proper thinking.  

 

biblical criticism doesn't mean being critical of the bible.  It's a field of study.  A way of analyzing texts in a historical, human-based context rather than religious one.

 

So, are you able to think for yourself, and perhaps tell us one thing that you believe that is different than the baptist party line, or do you just print out the baptist manifesto, and that is the sum total of your thoughts?