An Invitation To Sub_zer0 And Any Fundamentalist To Discuss Spirituality

[Open_Minded]

If I say that you have told me that you like the way I think, are you going to quit saying it? If so, then I would have to say, no you never said that!

 

Oh ... no ... I would never stop saying that.

 

I think Jesus made it clear that he and "the father" were one. What was not so clear is that he was not meaning for people to worship his form. Although, it can be deduced from his teachings that he was here to teach and when people looked at him they should be seeing 'the father'. He was denying his form, so why would one choose to worship that which he denyed?

 

It is very hard to understand this though when people equate their form to who they are.

 

Form = ego/or identification with form

Father = god/wisdom/truth/life/love

 

This is so true, on so many levels. Just from a level of context you can find this idea that the earliest followers of Jesus had another view of Jesus than the author of John.

 

Mark was the 1st gospel written. It is the Gospel closest to the time of Jesus. In Mark you will find statements like:

 

Mark 10:18 Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

 

In the gospel closest to the time of Jesus, Jesus is quoted as saying, "why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone".

 

In the gospel furthest removed in time from the life of Jesus, that is where you will find the "I Am" statemnts used by literalist Christians to exclude the overwhelming majority of the world's population.

[Ziggy]

This is a general reply to all following this thread. AM I hope its on topic

 

The main thing to have come out of this thread is that spiritual meaning / love / happiness can be felt by anyone willing to search for them within themselves.

I see this as a mature view taken by people who have tried to think things through for themsleves based on what they have experienced in life and what they feel now within themselves.

 

There has been some debating this with SubZero who believes this type of feeling is through Christ alone... a fundamantal christian view which takes no growth, personal experience or maturity to hold - you just have to follow the bible without question

 

Many people here have been where Sub has been and I believe Sub is only 21 years old and still has much to learn

 

So I cannot blame Sub and i think many here will understand where he / she is coming from.

If you have an unpbringing in a fundamental Christian Culture with probably fundamental Christian parents its very hard to be a loving offspring but refute your parents views and those of your community

 

My point is Where are the mature Christians who have experienced life, who must have thought these things through (at least a bit) but who still teach their kids there is no other way other than BibleGod / Christ.

some of them must have been honest with themselves and at least partially admit to some grey areas within their boxed faith

Where are the leaders of the church who can explain to us why they lead the next generation along the same path of blinkeredness ( Is that a word?)

 

I don't blame the young people ... its the teachers and leaders and parents. Sub can you get get any of these people on to this debate?

[Antlerman]

This is a general reply to all following this thread. AM I hope its on topic

<snip>

 

My point is Where are the mature Christians who have experienced life, who must have thought these things through (at least a bit) but who still teach their kids there is no other way other than BibleGod / Christ.

some of them must have been honest with themselves and at least partially admit to some grey areas within their boxed faith

Where are the leaders of the church who can explain to us why they lead the next generation along the same path of blinkeredness ( Is that a word?)

 

I don't blame the young people ... its the teachers and leaders and parents. Sub can you get get any of these people on to this debate?

Yes, this is dead on topic. (I hate coming across as over-protective of this thread, it's just that I know how easy it is to get off topic with any one of a thousand side issues about religion).

 

This is exactly what I have been hoping for a long time. I would like some more "moderate" evangelicals, to discuss their views on these topics. As you pointed out, Sub has shared his thoughts, but his age and background is only one perspective from the evangelical world.

 

I sometimes wonder if they are there (and are reading this??), that for them to openly express different points of view is uncomfortable for them? Not that peers could identify them and frown at them, but that for themselves to openly express doubts, and differences of opinion may cause fear in them that it could lead to breaking with the faith, and that's too big of a risk for them to take in their lives?

 

I just know that Amanda who posts with us has found her views change from openly discussing them, but to her it has strengthened her faith. Which raises a huge point: If evangelicals never express any doubts, then something is wrong. This is not normal on any level anywhere, and indicates that the belief is being artificially held in place as a defensive wall.

 

In any case, I really hope some more evangelicals of a range of ages and background would contribute their perspectives here in this discussion.

[Open_Minded]

So I cannot blame Sub and i think many here will understand where he / she is coming from. If you have an unpbringing in a fundamental Christian Culture with probably fundamental Christian parents its very hard to be a loving offspring but refute your parents views and those of your community

 

Robert ... I agree with you. Sub is young, and I don't blame him, I am not angry with him. I am sad for him.

 

Sub... to be clear, when I force you out on issues I am not angry as I am doing so. I am often quite sad for you. I've children your age - and I often feel as though I am in parent mode when I write to you. I will hold you accountable for your own thinking because you are now an adult. Someday you will have children. You are old enough to start thinking through your own thought processes. But - I don NOT blame you for being raised the way you were.

 

My point is Where are the mature Christians who have experienced life, who must have thought these things through (at least a bit) but who still teach their kids there is no other way other than BibleGod / Christ. Some of them must have been honest with themselves and at least partially admit to some grey areas within their boxed faith Where are the leaders of the church who can explain to us why they lead the next generation along the same path of blinkeredness ( Is that a word?)

 

I don't blame the young people ... its the teachers and leaders and parents. Sub can you get get any of these people on to this debate?

 

Robert .. you hit the nail on the head. I can not speak from an evangelical point of view. But, I can speak from a moderate to liberal point of view. And I can only speak from personal experience.

 

I'd love to blame it all on the pastors and the teachers. But, I've been around the block a few times and learned some lessons along the way. As many of you know - I've been run out of a church myself.

 

I do not bring this up as a rant, it happened several years ago and it's history. But, it is history that is appropriate to the conversation.

 

Over 10 years ago, my children were younger. We were attending a mainstream Lutheran church in my coommunity. I was a parent of Sunday school children and, like many parents, also a Sunday School teacher.

 

I taught 7th and 8th grade students, who were also going through confirmation. Now - I figured out early (1st class of the season) that these kids were bored out of their minds with the standard curriculum. So .... being the niave young parent that I was, I asked - "What would you like to talk about this school year". Immediately they started to tell me about children they went to school with who were something other than Christian. We live in a fairly liberal area (for the U.S.) and there are a few Jewish children in our school system. Some families are openly agnostic or athiest. On main street we have a few places that teach Yoga. There are also people affilliated with Wiccan. Our community also has the standard fundamentalist "non denominational" churches as well as a Kingdom Hall.

 

The kids in the class wanted to learn about other faith traditions. They wanted to learn about other religions and other denominations within Christianity. Well I wasn't so niave as to teach this stuff without checking with the pastor first. So... I went to the pastor (who was new) and we discussed possibilities. He liked the idea, he had the same children for confirmation and felt that if they were going to go through confirmation they needed to learn about other faith traditions. They needed to learn about other viewpoints within Christianity.

 

To make a very long story (3 years long) short, by the time all was said and done, this pastor lost his post over the whole mess. My family left and several families followed us.

 

Lesson of the story ... sometimes people DON"T WANT THE MESSAGE. Sad but true. This is the way we were treated in a mainstream Lutheran congregation. This church is in the same Synod my current congregation is in.

 

Within that 3 year period, parents of my Sunday school students went to great lengths to force me out. They told lies about me all over the small community I live in. They pulled their children into the whole mess and my Sunday school students told lies (they had heard from their parents) all over school about the children of the pastor and other families who supported me. My children were spared because they were younger than 7th & 8th grade at the time. But the way children were pulled into the whole mess was the cruelist part of all.

 

Keep in mind that it was only a few parents, but that's all it took. Just 2-3 families to get the whole congregation in an uproar. The whole thing was a travesty - it was hands down - the worst period of my spiritual life. If parents in a mainstream church would act in such horrid ways, how do you suppose parents in a literalist church would respond to a pastor - or teacher who wanted to open up the discussion?

[SkepticOfBible]

 

There has been some debating this with SubZero who believes this type of feeling is through Christ alone... a fundamantal christian view which takes no growth, personal experience or maturity to hold - you just have to follow the bible without question

 

 

Sub_zero wanted to say that love is only valid only if it is christian(christ oriented). If that was the case, then how come christians keep divorcing? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the divorce rate the highest in the Bible Belt.

[Asimov]

Hey! You are absolutely right! If God crafted Eve from Adam's own rib, then genetically she's an exact match with Adam with the exception of being female! That makes her genetically no different than her being Adam's own fraternal twin!

Why did I never think of this before? I was thinking of the incest having to start with Cain and Abel, but no.....it was incest from the get go!

 

Incest wasn't against the law until the law was put down by Moses...

 

 

 

 

Robert ... I agree with you. Sub is young, and I don't blame him, I am not angry with him. I am sad for him.

 

 

I'm young, he has no excuse.

[white_raven23]

Hey! You are absolutely right! If God crafted Eve from Adam's own rib, then genetically she's an exact match with Adam with the exception of being female! That makes her genetically no different than her being Adam's own fraternal twin!

Why did I never think of this before? I was thinking of the incest having to start with Cain and Abel, but no.....it was incest from the get go!

 

Incest wasn't against the law until the law was put down by Moses...

 

 

It's not the incest as a legal issue that becomes the problem.....but the biological disaster and impossibility to have a growing, self-sustaining population originating from only two people. Inbreeding would severely limit and then deteriorate any population growth.

 

And so what if incest wasn't "against god's law" until Moses bothered to write it down? If god is all-knowing and all-yadda yadda yadda, then that being knew the intention of making incest a sin at some point before Adam and Eve were created. In that case, wouldn't it have been proactive of said being to create some more damn people?!

[jrmarlin]

One again an example of Xians not really understanding what their own history dictates. Incest, as Tap said, is a biological disaster. Period. The population of the earth would not have grown so vast had incest been the true beginning of humanity. To think this is to be close-minded and very unintelligent.

 

Also, as for Xian thought processes - there is none, simply put. Xianity on the whole frowns on any type of science because it smartens up their masses.

 

I ran into some interesting factoids yesterday from a friend who is also very anti-Xian. Did you all know that the Catholic religion is now really scrambling for followers and priests? It seems that no one wants to or sees being a priest a very noble profession anymore. Interesting. Also several other religions are really working hard to gain congrugations. Why? Because people (the masses) have come to the realizations of science -- as well as the insidiousness of Xianity on the whole now. Thus, younger folks are becoming more astute and asking more questions. Questions, mind you, that, ministers don't like to answer.

 

Xianity is heading for extinction -- contrary to popular belief. Xianity never has made sense and now people are becoming more aware of this sad but very real fact.

 

I am curious, how many people on this site are ex-Christians? While I was raised going to church on Sunday, I was never a Born-Again-er. I would never consider myself an ex-christian so to speak because I always had problems with the fantastical fables and the mindset of follow the leader. So when I left the church, it was nothing traumatic. I was never really that "into it" in the first place. I was more complacent than even the (what I call) Nod-to-Jesus Xians who just show up on Sunday, Nod and then go back to a life of debauchery the rest of the week! No, I just would show up, sleep through the sermon and then go home. I went more for my parents than myself -- and trust me, at 15 when I didn't want to go, I was not forced to go...

 

The fact that this website appears to be lively, is indicative of the fact that more astute mentalities are beginning to surface in greater mass.

 

Has anyone on here read Kryon: The End Times, Book 1? I am curious to hear what you think about it. I have not read it (hence, please no spoilers) but I intend to do so within the week. I am told this is a very enlightening book as to how Xianity is dying off. The cult really does need to go as I am very tired of living around and dealing with really stupid people.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

To make a very long story (3 years long) short, by the time all was said and done, this pastor lost his post over the whole mess. My family left and several families followed us.

 

Lesson of the story ... sometimes people DON"T WANT THE MESSAGE. Sad but true. This is the way we were treated in a mainstream Lutheran congregation. This church is in the same Synod my current congregation is in.

 

Within that 3 year period, parents of my Sunday school students went to great lengths to force me out. They told lies about me all over the small community I live in. They pulled their children into the whole mess and my Sunday school students told lies (they had heard from their parents) all over school about the children of the pastor and other families who supported me. My children were spared because they were younger than 7th & 8th grade at the time. But the way children were pulled into the whole mess was the cruelist part of all.

 

Keep in mind that it was only a few parents, but that's all it took. Just 2-3 families to get the whole congregation in an uproar. The whole thing was a travesty - it was hands down - the worst period of my spiritual life. If parents in a mainstream church would act in such horrid ways, how do you suppose parents in a literalist church would respond to a pastor - or teacher who wanted to open up the discussion?

 

What a horrid experience, Open_Minded. Something similar happened to my mother, who was trying to introduce wider perspectives into a women's bible class in our Presb. church. It was a mainstream church, very "establishment."

 

I think christians act consistently with their own biblical and historical principles when they do this stuff.

 

Thanks for asking about my cat - she's not eating much yet but basically is recovering from the operation well.

[Amanda]

Robert ... I agree with you. Sub is young, and I don't blame him, I am not angry with him. I am sad for him.

 

 

I'm young, he has no excuse.

 

C'mon Asimov! My friend, you've come from a different path, and had you taken the same path as Sub Zero... then perhaps you would have made similar choices. Many people here were much like him at one time, and they are VERY intelligent! Of course, compassion is a great asset to acquire too, IMO.

[Antlerman]

Keep in mind that it was only a few parents, but that's all it took. Just 2-3 families to get the whole congregation in an uproar. The whole thing was a travesty - it was hands down - the worst period of my spiritual life. If parents in a mainstream church would act in such horrid ways, how do you suppose parents in a literalist church would respond to a pastor - or teacher who wanted to open up the discussion?

I would like to ask a couple questions about this and try to relate it to what I would suspect would happen in a fundamentalist church in how they approach the meaning of their beliefs, as this would in fact relate to the topic of this thread – “The Meaning of Spirituality in Fundamentalist Belief”

 

When this originally occurred, and you went to this new pastor, had he gone to the parents of these children in the classes and involved them in the decision making process prior to implementing this new program? In other words, did he get their “buy in”?

 

If he had not, along with the fact he was new and did not know the mindsets of the various families within the congregation, what you would see would be a power struggle against having something that was beyond what they were looking for in sending their children to Sunday school. If he had done this without the inclusion of the greater congregation, then that would go to explain how the few upset families were able to have such an influence over them. One thing that Protestants don’t react well to is a hierarchy descending down upon them, like how the Catholic Church operates from Rome down.

 

I’d guess probably about 50% of the children that are sent to Sunday school are sent for social reasons. ‘You go to Sunday school, and this is what you learn’. If the kids go and come home with stuff this is way outside what they learned in church, for one thing they have no idea how to talk about this stuff and it makes them look out of touch on something they should know about. “It’s messing with my religion, and I wasn’t even part of the discussion of this change what they decided to teach my kids!”

 

Without the buy in, there would have been a lot of fears and assumptions and feelings of threat to them. Add to this an urge to exert control back over these decision against this new upstart pastor who comes in all full of new ideas from seminary and is going to change everything all on his own with the radicals in the church! "He’s letting them get away with this, and these are our kids!” So, in comes the nastiness of political maneuvering going after influencing the main body against their perceived enemies.

 

I’m just trying to image how this evolved.

 

Now how does this relate to Fundamentalists? You asked how the congregation in a literalist church would respond to a pastor opening up the discussion of other beliefs?

 

Mostly what I have seen in fundamentalist churches is that any comparative religious studies are usually in the context of finding fault with the belief and providing Biblical responses to those problems with it. It is never, ever, ever about acknowledging any benefit to another belief system. It’s only about how they are wrong and we are right. In that case, of course the church board would probably support it because it promotes Christianity as better, and makes everyone else look lost and on their way to hell!

 

Would a pastor of a Fundamentalist church ever want to approach teaching other faiths as a social study of understanding faith in the human experience, never saying anything negative about other beliefs? Well…. If he did, he wouldn’t last because the whole thing is based on hard-core Bible only belief. At best, it would cause a split in the church.

 

I see this as different than what occurred in your case. In the fundamentalist church, the emphasis is clear cut that Christianity is right and everyone else is wrong and evil. In mainstream churches, there is an undercurrent of more open mindedness, yet there is tradition and an emphasis on the participation of the church body in decision making, as opposed to the Catholic hierarchy.

 

So I think what you are doing is workable within mainstream congregations if the main church body “buys in” to the decision. Then when those who don’t like it get going, the rest of the crowd gave their buy in and are unlikely to listen much to them, and things continue moving forward.

 

Full circle around: Because of the closed system approach to God inside Fundamentalist churches, the environment for other non-traditional ways of growing has little chance of getting off the ground. "We are right and they are wrong", pretty much blocks oneself to finding good outside their own views. Hence, fundamentalism is the death of spirituality, and add to this – personal growth.

[Asimov]

It's not the incest as a legal issue that becomes the problem.....but the biological disaster and impossibility to have a growing, self-sustaining population originating from only two people. Inbreeding would severely limit and then deteriorate any population growth.

 

Yes, but it appeared as if you were responding to the legal issue of it:

 

God made it impossible for Adam and Eve to avoid sinning!

 

And so what if incest wasn't "against god's law" until Moses bothered to write it down? If god is all-knowing and all-yadda yadda yadda, then that being knew the intention of making incest a sin at some point before Adam and Eve were created.

 

Yeeeess....but he didn't, so it wasn't a sin. I should have quoted the other poster.

 

In that case, wouldn't it have been proactive of said being to create some more damn people?!

 

Maybe he did, considering there are two creation accounts of Gen1 and Gen2.

 

C'mon Asimov! My friend, you've come from a different path, and had you taken the same path as Sub Zero... then perhaps you would have made similar choices. Many people here were much like him at one time, and they are VERY intelligent! Of course, compassion is a great asset to acquire too, IMO.

 

Perhaps, but then he is a victim of circumstance and not youth.

[Antlerman]

Hey come on you guys...

 

I've asked four time so far that we stay on topic here. Read post one etc. It's in the rules of the forum. I don't think this thread is dead, do you?

 

Please, this belongs in the other thread about Bible Ethics. I've asked several times. Please??

 

C'mon Asimov! My friend, you've come from a different path, and had you taken the same path as Sub Zero... then perhaps you would have made similar choices. Many people here were much like him at one time, and they are VERY intelligent! Of course, compassion is a great asset to acquire too, IMO.

 

Perhaps, but then he is a victim of circumstance and not youth.

Since this pertains to the topic: Youth does make a difference in world views. Another 20 years of experience adds a whole lot of information to process and fit into how you perceive notions of absolute right and wrong.

 

This is why I'm trying to keep the thread from being killed by unrelated discussions. I am highly interested in some older Fundamentalists sharing how they process their beliefs with their greater life experiences. Age does make a difference.

[Asimov]

Please, this belongs in the other thread about Bible Ethics. I've asked several times. Please??

 

Sorry man, I'll stop.

 

Perhaps, but then he is a victim of circumstance and not youth.

Since this pertains to the topic: Youth does make a difference in world views. Another 20 years of experience adds a whole lot of information to process and fit into how you perceive notions of absolute right and wrong.

 

This is why I'm trying to keep the thread from being killed by unrelated discussions. I am highly interested in some older Fundamentalists sharing how they process their beliefs with their greater life experiences. Age does make a difference.

 

It makes a difference in world views, but Open Minded was using his youth as a reason for him being stupi-- I mean believing what he believes.

[Open_Minded]

I would like to ask a couple questions about this and try to relate it to what I would suspect would happen in a fundamentalist church in how they approach the meaning of their beliefs, as this would in fact relate to the topic of this thread – “The Meaning of Spirituality in Fundamentalist Belief”

 

When this originally occurred, and you went to this new pastor, had he gone to the parents of these children in the classes and involved them in the decision making process prior to implementing this new program? In other words, did he get their “buy in”?

 

If he had not, along with the fact he was new and did not know the mindsets of the various families within the congregation, what you would see would be a power struggle against having something that was beyond what they were looking for in sending their children to Sunday school. If he had done this without the inclusion of the greater congregation, then that would go to explain how the few upset families were able to have such an influence over them. One thing that Protestants don’t react well to is a hierarchy descending down upon them, like how the Catholic Church operates from Rome down.

 

OK ... where to start....

 

The pastor and I both went to the education committee. Everyone on the committee told us to go ahead, that it sounded like something that would benefit the kids.

 

Had I to do it all over again, I probably would go to the parents - and I'm sure the pastor would as well. But - we were younger and stupid/niave (you choose - both terms fit).

 

Without the buy in, there would have been a lot of fears and assumptions and feelings of threat to them. Add to this an urge to exert control back over these decision against this new upstart pastor who comes in all full of new ideas from seminary and is going to change everything all on his own with the radicals in the church! "He’s letting them get away with this, and these are our kids!” So, in comes the nastiness of political maneuvering going after influencing the main body against their perceived enemies.

 

In one way you're right. In another way ... well the pastor had had two other congregations before this one ... so he wasn't fresh out of a seminary. He was new to this congregation - but not to ministry, not to the dynamics of congregational life.

 

But you know Antlerman, I've had years to do the usual Monday morning quarterbacking that one does with one's pivotal moments in life. I am convinced of the following:

1. We could have (and probably should have) moved slower. That was our biggest mistake - hands down.
   
2. But ... I am convinced that had we moved slower .... the results would have been the same. It just would have been more drawn out and more painful for everyone involved.
   
3. The bottom line is that when it came down to a vote whether the pastor should stay (or go), Overwhelmingly the congregation voted in favor of the pastor.
   
4. Still - in the end he (and his family) felt the need to leave. So did I, my family and several other families. The fact that most of the people of that congregation went on record as supporting those of us being targeted didn't stop the inevitable.
   
5. The inevitable was that a few families knew how to apply pressure, manipulate circumstances, lie, cheat, smear people and their reputations. In the end - even though the vote went in our favor - none of us felt we could stay.
   

I’m just trying to image how this evolved.

 

Well .... a lot of it revolved around power and a lot of it revolved around ignorance. The parents involved had a lot of influence in the church - dating back generations. I am totally convinced that had we (education committee, pastor, myself) gone to the parents of all Sunday School children and worked for a "buy in" that the same parents would have fought us and and the same parents who supported us, would have "bought in".

 

The parents who fought us, fought us for two reasons. One - ignorance - they did not know how to read the Bible in context and didn't care to learn. They firmly believed anyone not "Christian" was going to hell - and they didn't care to examine their positions. The other reason they fought us - was just what you said - they had been in a controlling position in that congregation for generations and finally a pastor wanted to do something that didn't go along with their agenda. And so you have a conflict. But ... as I said earlier ... the conflict would have emerged had we gone slower, as well.

 

I've played that whole period of my life over in my head a million times. I've discussed the particulars with others over and over again. And in the end, many of us have come to believe that the people involved in causing damage would have eventually acted the same way - no matter what we did.

 

Would a pastor of a Fundamentalist church ever want to approach teaching other faiths as a social study of understanding faith in the human experience, never saying anything negative about other beliefs? Well…. If he did, he wouldn’t last because the whole thing is based on hard-core Bible only belief. At best, it would cause a split in the church.

 

It caused a severe split in our mainstream church as well. Bottom line - even though most families supported us - the few that wanted us out prevaled. They were willing to manipulate, to lie and smear reputations. They were willing to bring their kids into the whole mess - so much so that conflict errupted at school between their children and the children of the pastor and other families (families who were supportive). In the end - when all was said and done - we left because we weren't willing to sink to that level.

 

Those families acted the way they did not just because there was a pastor with a different agenda than their own - and they had always dominated that church. A huge part of it was their ignorance - and their unwillingness to explore other possibilities. They did then, and still do, all these years later - believe that people who are not Christian are going to hell.

 

So I think what you are doing is workable within mainstream congregations if the main church body “buys in” to the decision. Then when those who don’t like it get going, the rest of the crowd gave their buy in and are unlikely to listen much to them, and things continue moving forward.

 

Yes... I agree with this. Because the church I'm in now has "bought in" and we are doing it. Today, I spent the whole day at a Wellness Expo. We had a booth at the expo - I also did a 45 minute presentation on western meditation. The name of our church was on public display as supporting an interfaith ministry - whose purpose statement is: "A Healing Journey: Exploring Spiritual Interconnectedness" I am so utterly thankful for our current congregation.

 

So many people stopped by our booth today, and took the time to talk with me about what we are doing. The most common phrase people say is, "I can't believe you're doing this in a church". This type of ministry is not expected in an exclusivistic Christian church. There is much work to be done - even in mainstream churches.

 

But, Antlerman, keep in mind - getting the "buy in" at our current congregation was not easy. We lost, yet another pastor over the whole mess. And again it was just a couple families. You know why we succeeded here, where we didn't in the other church. Because after the loss of the second pastor, people expected me to leave, they expected others to leave. They thought if the pastor went we would. But, we didn't. We stuck it out - and when the pastor we have now came along and we continued on doing the work we are doing they finally realized - it's not the pastor driving the change. Members of the congregation want change no matter who the pastor is.

 

Experience has taught me that it is not only important to go slow to get a "buy in" but also to protect the pastor. Lay people have to take the lead - it can't be done without the support of the pastor, the council, education committee, etc... But lay people have to step up to the plate and demand change. They really do, there is only so much a pastor can do before people began to assume he/she is the reason for the change. To get the "buy in" it has to be clear from the get go - that the reason for the change is lay driven.

 

Full circle around: Because of the closed system approach to God inside Fundamentalist churches, the environment for other non-traditional ways of growing has little chance of getting off the ground. "We are right and they are wrong", pretty much blocks oneself to finding good outside their own views. Hence, fundamentalism is the death of spirituality, and add to this – personal growth.

I agree with you here, completely.

[NotBlinded]

It makes a difference in world views, but Open Minded was using his youth as a reason for him being stupi-- I mean believing what he believes.

ppsssttt...you mean sub_zer0. Open Minded is old as ............. I am!

[Asimov]

It makes a difference in world views, but Open Minded was using his youth as a reason for him being stupi-- I mean believing what he believes.

ppsssttt...you mean sub_zer0. Open Minded is old as ............. I am!

 

 

Open Minded was using Sub Zeros youth as a reason for Sub Zero being stupid.

[NotBlinded]

It makes a difference in world views, but Open Minded was using his youth as a reason for him being stupi-- I mean believing what he believes.

ppsssttt...you mean sub_zer0. Open Minded is old as ............. I am!

 

 

Open Minded was using Sub Zeros youth as a reason for Sub Zero being stupid.

Damn...what excuse do I have?

[Open_Minded]

It makes a difference in world views, but Open Minded was using his youth as a reason for him being stupi-- I mean believing what he believes.

ppsssttt...you mean sub_zer0. Open Minded is old as ............. I am!

 

 

Open Minded was using Sub Zeros youth as a reason for Sub Zero being stupid.

Damn...what excuse do I have?

 

Absolutely none! Go sit in the corner.....

[NotBlinded]

It makes a difference in world views, but Open Minded was using his youth as a reason for him being stupi-- I mean believing what he believes.

ppsssttt...you mean sub_zer0. Open Minded is old as ............. I am!

 

 

Open Minded was using Sub Zeros youth as a reason for Sub Zero being stupid.

Damn...what excuse do I have?

 

Absolutely none! Go sit in the corner.....

Okay

 

[Open_Minded]

ppsssttt...you mean sub_zer0. Open Minded is old as ............. I am!

Open Minded was using Sub Zeros youth as a reason for Sub Zero being stupid.

Damn...what excuse do I have?

Absolutely none! Go sit in the corner.....

 

Okay

 

Oh ... NotBlinded .... don't cry .... you can take a nice book with you and glass of wine if you like.

[Antlerman]

Speaking of Sub_zer0... anyone seen him around, or has he left us now?

[Curtdude]

Speaking of Sub_zer0... anyone seen him around, or has he left us now?

 

Maybe I scared him off when I "admitted" to bein' a queer... oh well.

[Antlerman]

Speaking of Sub_zer0... anyone seen him around, or has he left us now?

 

Maybe I scared him off when I "admitted" to bein' a queer... oh well.

I had to laugh when he picked up on the word "partner" when you used it, and first thing asked was if you were gay. I was thinking about making some passing refernce to my partner, just to see if he would ask me that same question. My partner however is a woman whom I live with. ("Girlfriend" doesn't really fit, considering she's in her 40's. Plus at our age "boyfriend and girlfriend" just sounds sort of silly, though sometimes I do act like a teenager). Oh, culture!

[Curtdude]

I had to laugh when he picked up on the word "partner" when you used it, and first thing asked was if you were gay. ....

 

I know. Story of my life. Groan. Not sure if that is why he left, but it seemed kinda obvious to me.

 

Good thread though, dude. And I do think that Mr.Sub opened up and shared. He sure was defensive 'cause all the apostates called him on the "canned" answers, but I think most of us know where he's at. "Been there, done that."

 

I think the whole use of words as almost incantations in christianity stems from the "In the beginning was the Word..." stuff in John 1. Rather similar to mantras in hinduism and buddhism. Just recite some verse like Jn. 3:16 and the words themselves with the holy spirit's help will work on the unsaved. Just like magic.

 

'Cause that's exactly what it is.