Trust Yourself

[bornagainathiest]

And all of the above were ordained to happen by God before Genesis 1 : 1.

No decision or choice made by Jacob, Esau or Rebekah changed what had always been in God's mind.

Do you agree?

~ BAA

 

There were no other choices or actions they could make to change the order of events.

 

Exactly.  These things do not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's will.

 

God knew what the final outcome would be.

 

Exactly.  He has always known all things - with events, choices and actions in time and space not influencing what he has ordained to happen before He created anything.

 

So,in that context, my answer to your question is yes.

 

Therefore, God's will is sovereign over human choice.

 

Here is a link about God’s foreknowledge and free will:

 

“Throughout the Scriptures we find a tension revealed between the reality of God’s sovereign foreknowledge and predestination and the reality that we also truly have free will.”

 

http://www.johnburkeonline.com/sovereignty-vs-free-will-resolved/

 

Speculation about other dimensions is only needed if one accepts that there is a paradox that needs resolving.

 

That paradox being the 'apparent' tension between God's sovereignty and human free will.

 

However, there is a perfectly logical and consistent explanation that does no violence to scripture and which makes this paradox go away.

 

Which Ficino neatly explained here...  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72381-trust-yourself/page-9#.V1ndGbsrJD8...in post # 161.

 

In the Bible, free will is a mirage.

[ironhorse]

 

And all of the above were ordained to happen by God before Genesis 1 : 1.

No decision or choice made by Jacob, Esau or Rebekah changed what had always been in God's mind.

Do you agree?

~ BAA

 

There were no other choices or actions they could make to change the order of events.

 

Exactly.  These things do not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's will.

 

God knew what the final outcome would be.

 

Exactly.  He has always known all things - with events, choices and actions in time and space not influencing what he has ordained to happen before He created anything.

 

So,in that context, my answer to your question is yes.

 

Therefore, God's will is sovereign over human choice.

Here is a link about God’s foreknowledge and free will:

 

“Throughout the Scriptures we find a tension revealed between the reality of God’s sovereign foreknowledge and predestination and the reality that we also truly have free will.”

 

http://www.johnburkeonline.com/sovereignty-vs-free-will-resolved/

 

Speculation about other dimensions is only needed if one accepts that there is a paradox that needs resolving.

 

That paradox being the 'apparent' tension between God's sovereignty and human free will.

 

However, there is a perfectly logical and consistent explanation that does no violence to scripture and which makes this paradox go away.

 

Which Ficino neatly explained here...  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72381-trust-yourself/page-9#.V1ndGbsrJD8...in post # 161.

 

In the Bible, free will is a mirage.

 

 

 

Your view, as in Calvinism, makes God the creator and problem of evil.

From Nero, Hitler, Stalin and ISIS, the horrors of war and the problem of evil are, according to your view and Calvinists, the direct cause of the decree and plan and will of God.

No, we cannot choose contrary to what God foreknows we will freely choose, but our decisions are ours, and not those that God has decreed for us to choose. We are not puppets on a string.

The problem of evil belongs to us, not to God.

In my understanding, the scriptures teach God is the answer, not the problem.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

And all of the above were ordained to happen by God before Genesis 1 : 1.

No decision or choice made by Jacob, Esau or Rebekah changed what had always been in God's mind.

Do you agree?

~ BAA

 

There were no other choices or actions they could make to change the order of events.

 

Exactly.  These things do not depend on human desire or effort, but on God's will.

 

God knew what the final outcome would be.

 

Exactly.  He has always known all things - with events, choices and actions in time and space not influencing what he has ordained to happen before He created anything.

 

So,in that context, my answer to your question is yes.

 

Therefore, God's will is sovereign over human choice.

Here is a link about God’s foreknowledge and free will:

 

“Throughout the Scriptures we find a tension revealed between the reality of God’s sovereign foreknowledge and predestination and the reality that we also truly have free will.”

 

http://www.johnburkeonline.com/sovereignty-vs-free-will-resolved/

 

Speculation about other dimensions is only needed if one accepts that there is a paradox that needs resolving.

 

That paradox being the 'apparent' tension between God's sovereignty and human free will.

 

However, there is a perfectly logical and consistent explanation that does no violence to scripture and which makes this paradox go away.

 

Which Ficino neatly explained here...  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/72381-trust-yourself/page-9#.V1ndGbsrJD8...in post # 161.

 

In the Bible, free will is a mirage.

 

 

 

Your view, as in Calvinism, makes God the creator and problem of evil.  

 

The Bible makes God the creator of evil, not me.  

 

From Nero, Hitler, Stalin and ISIS, the horrors of war and the problem of evil are, according to your view and Calvinists, the direct cause of the decree and plan and will of God.  

 

Scripture agrees with this.  God's will and not human desire or effort (choice) is sovereign.  

 

No, we cannot choose contrary to what God foreknows we will freely choose, but our decisions are ours, and not those that God has decreed for us to choose. We are not puppets on a string.  

 

God's sovereign will and human will are mutually exclusive positions which you attempt to reconcile by the use of Biblical eisegesis, 'divine mystery', multi-dimensional speculation and faith.

 

That paradox is fully resolved by realizing that God is the creator of evil and that our free will is a mirage.

 

The problem of evil belongs to us, not to God.  

 

That's not what the Bible says.

 

In my understanding, the scriptures teach God is the answer, not the problem.

 

Your understanding requires Biblical eisegesis, divine mystery, multi-dimensions and faith.

 

And the driver of your efforts is your emotions - which should not be so.

 

Our emotions easily sway us and lead us astray.

 

The pursuit of the truth should be a reasoned, rational, logical, pragmatic and dispassionate activity.

 

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^

 

Picking up from BAA, and in the spirit of David Hume's arguments that our morality is based on right sentiment, I suggest, Ironhorse, that your emotions are better than your theorizing. You rightly see that it is repugnant if there is an all-knowing and all-powerful entity that wills and carries out evil, inflicting suffering on powerless creatures it creates - however much pleasure it may extend to other creatures. You rightly see that this rigged system is a horror.

 

You are fighting against the obvious fact that this system is derived straight from that collection of old texts that you pledge yourself to as normative. We're not making it up, and neither did Calvin.

 

Some day - and I hope, for you, that it's soon - the cracks in the dam will give way and you will SEE. You'll see the big lie. Then you'll have the exciting but daunting task of going on in life with no blueprint except what you and the rest of us can cobble together.

 

But that's not so bad. It's actually where you stand right now, with the rest of us in the leaky boat that somehow keeps chugging forward.

 

Peace, f

[ironhorse]

ficino, thanks for your reply but I guess we will just have to agree that we disagree on this.

 

You are fighting against the obvious fact that this system is derived straight from that collection of old texts that you pledge yourself to as normative. We're not making it up, and neither did Calvin.

 

I don’t know why the age of a text determines its value.

Yes, I do indeed view the scriptures as being inspired by God.
I tried to present the view from the scriptures that we do have free will. I’m sure you know by now I do not agree with Calvin.

 

Some day - and I hope, for you, that it's soon - the cracks in the dam will give way and you will SEE. You'll see the big lie. Then you'll have the exciting but daunting task of going on in life with no blueprint except what you and the rest of us can cobble together.

 

Sorry to disappoint but I will not change what I see the scriptures teaching. You see it as a LIE, I see it as the truth.

I’m already, as I have stated before, on this exciting journey called life. The blueprint for me is the Bible, not what me as a person or others can cobble together about what God is like or the purpose of life.

We all make our own choices. I’m not pleading or badgering others to accept what I post here simply because it is what I believe.

 

I do encourage people to check things out themselves. Read and study bother sides of any topic or issue. 

 

As the title of this thread states, TRUST YOURSELF.

[bornagainathiest]

ficino, thanks for your reply but I guess we will just have to agree that we disagree on this.

 

You are fighting against the obvious fact that this system is derived straight from that collection of old texts that you pledge yourself to as normative. We're not making it up, and neither did Calvin.

 

I don’t know why the age of a text determines its value.

Yes, I do indeed view the scriptures as being inspired by God.

I tried to present the view from the scriptures that we do have free will. I’m sure you know by now I do not agree with Calvin.

 

Some day - and I hope, for you, that it's soon - the cracks in the dam will give way and you will SEE. You'll see the big lie. Then you'll have the exciting but daunting task of going on in life with no blueprint except what you and the rest of us can cobble together.

 

Sorry to disappoint but I will not change what I see the scriptures teaching. You see it as a LIE, I see it as the truth.

I’m already, as I have stated before, on this exciting journey called life. The blueprint for me is the Bible, not what me as a person or others can cobble together about what God is like or the purpose of life.

We all make our own choices. I’m not pleading or badgering others to accept what I post here simply because it is what I believe.

 

I do encourage people to check things out themselves. Read and study bother sides of any topic or issue. 

 

But you don't do that yourself, Ironhorse.

 

You've just said that NOTHING would cause you to give up your faith.

 

Which means that you've stopped checking out anything that would.

 

You don't read and study both sides - you only read that which supports your faith.

 

As the title of this thread states, TRUST YOURSELF.

[ironhorse]

 

ficino, thanks for your reply but I guess we will just have to agree that we disagree on this.

 

You are fighting against the obvious fact that this system is derived straight from that collection of old texts that you pledge yourself to as normative. We're not making it up, and neither did Calvin.

 

I don’t know why the age of a text determines its value.

Yes, I do indeed view the scriptures as being inspired by God.

I tried to present the view from the scriptures that we do have free will. I’m sure you know by now I do not agree with Calvin.

 

Some day - and I hope, for you, that it's soon - the cracks in the dam will give way and you will SEE. You'll see the big lie. Then you'll have the exciting but daunting task of going on in life with no blueprint except what you and the rest of us can cobble together.

 

Sorry to disappoint but I will not change what I see the scriptures teaching. You see it as a LIE, I see it as the truth.

I’m already, as I have stated before, on this exciting journey called life. The blueprint for me is the Bible, not what me as a person or others can cobble together about what God is like or the purpose of life.

We all make our own choices. I’m not pleading or badgering others to accept what I post here simply because it is what I believe.

 

I do encourage people to check things out themselves. Read and study bother sides of any topic or issue. 

 

But you don't do that yourself, Ironhorse.

 

You've just said that NOTHING would cause you to give up your faith.

 

Which means that you've stopped checking out anything that would.

 

You don't read and study both sides - you only read that which supports your faith.

 

As the title of this thread states, TRUST YOURSELF.

 

 

 

But you don't do that yourself, Ironhorse.

 

You've just said that NOTHING would cause you to give up your faith.

 

Which means that you've stopped checking out anything that would.

 

You don't read and study both sides - you only read that which supports your faith.

 

~ BAA

 

 

 

Why do you make such a accusation?

 

Where did I say I would stop reading other viewpoints?

 

Why do you claim I have not studied or read both sides?

 

I realize you think my conclusions on accepting the Christian faith are all wrong

but you need to understand that some people who investigate the Christian faith do not always 

abandon it.

 

At the moment, I don't know what else to say.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If "nothing" will make you give up your faith, then you're not really examining the evidence with an open mind. You're examining it with the pre-concluded decision that you will not accept the evidence because it doesn't support your faith, which you've already decided to keep, irrespective of the evidence.

 

What BAA said wasn't an accusation; it was simply an acknowledgment of your unwavering position.

[bornagainathiest]

What the Prof said.

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse wrote...

 

"BAA, you need to understand that some people who investigate the Christian faith do not always abandon it."

 

Yet, if there is evidence that would falsify Christianity (like Jesus' bones) then Christians should abandon their faith.

 

Do you agree, Ironhorse?

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

This is a polite reminder that inquiring minds would like you to list (with chapter and verse) the Biblical contradictions that only YOU have found in the (insert number here) years you have been following the Bible study procedure you've described in this thread.

 

Please refer to post # 223 (June 8) for the context of this message.

 

Thank you,

 

BAA.

 

 

[duderonomy]

IH: "The blueprint for me is the Bible, not what me as a person or others can cobble together about what God is like or the purpose of life."

 

Maybe Ironhorse hasn't taken the time to consider that his Bible wasn't lowered on a silver platter from Heaven. It is in fact a collection of often conflicting writings "cobbled together" by people no different than us, with many books left out.

Mere sinful humans have decided what his divinely inspired Bible is, and what the purpose of his life is.

[pratt]

IH: "The blueprint for me is the Bible, not what me as a person or others can cobble together about what God is like or the purpose of life."

 

Maybe Ironhorse hasn't taken the time to consider that his Bible wasn't lowered on a silver platter from Heaven. It is in fact a collection of often conflicting writings "cobbled together" by people no different than us, with many books left out.

Mere sinful humans have decided what his divinely inspired Bible is, and what the purpose of his life is.

and the bible is put together by some old folks sitting around the round table, thinking what to include and exclude into the canon over the ages,,,,,

 

and thereafter someone clown just declared it is completed,,,,,

 

martin luther that supposedly protestant movement founder even thinks certain books should not be included,,,,

 

it is like a collection of aesop's fable and decides which should be included by powerful n influential fuckers thats all

[duderonomy]

^^^^  Yup. Humans decided what was divinely inspired and what wasn't.  

 

Edit: Oops, new page. I was responding to what Pratt said in #240. You probably knew that.

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse wrote...

 

"BAA, you need to understand that some people who investigate the Christian faith do not always abandon it."

 

Yet, if there is evidence that would falsify Christianity (like Jesus' bones) then Christians should abandon their faith.

 

Do you agree, Ironhorse?

 

(Bump!)

[ironhorse]

 

Ironhorse wrote...

 

"BAA, you need to understand that some people who investigate the Christian faith do not always abandon it."

 

Yet, if there is evidence that would falsify Christianity (like Jesus' bones) then Christians should abandon their faith.

 

Do you agree, Ironhorse?

 

(Bump!)

 

 

 

I guess more than a few people have been digging around hoping to find the bones of Jesus or even more hoping some highly intelligence beings from a galaxy far away will land in the middle Washington D.C. and tell us how stupid we are to believe in a god.

They proved it all wrong billions of years ago.

 

Or better yet, they tell us they planted us on earth millions of years ago as part of their universe expansion project. 

 

Or archaeologists discover a well preserved manuscript that dates to the time of the disciples. It tells the tale of how a small group of drunken fishermen sat around a tavern in Jerusalem and made up the whole story as a joke.

 

Imagine the headlines!

 

I’m not agreeing on hypothetical scenarios.

If there is new evidence that claims to totally disproves the Christian faith, lets post it here.

[pratt]

if there is old/new/semi-new evidence that claims to totally disproves chinese dragons, lets post it here

[ironhorse]

if there is old/new/semi-new evidence that claims to totally disproves chinese dragons, lets post it here

 

 

And I doubt I could find a discussion board where that topic is being hotly debated.

 

In fact, it is almost just as hard to find a discussion board where another religion is being hotly 

debated on whether it is the truth or not. 

 

No, it seems Christianity is the one trying to be put to an end. 

[bornagainathiest]

Sorry Ironhorse, but you cannot do that! 

 

You've just added a condition to your statement that NOTHING would make you leave your Christian faith.

 

Your statement consisted of just one word... NOTHING.

 

No conditions, no qualifications and no exceptions.

 

So you cannot rule out anything, because to do so is to introduce a condition to your condition-free statement.

.

.

.

I'm sorry but you've disagreed with yourself here.

 

 

 

 

 

[ironhorse]

Sorry Ironhorse, but you cannot do that! 

 

You've just added a condition to your statement that NOTHING would make you leave your Christian faith.

 

Your statement consisted of just one word... NOTHING.

 

No conditions, no qualifications and no exceptions.

 

So you cannot rule out anything, because to do so is to introduce a condition to your condition-free statement.

.

.

.

I'm sorry but you've disagreed with yourself here.

 

I will not be belliger your point. 

 

My answer is what it is. 

[bornagainathiest]

Then you stand in contradiction to yourself, Ironhorse.

 

You wrote NOTHING, but now you wish to make exceptions to your own one-word statement.

 

I must say, it takes a rare talent to write just one word and then to disagree with it, less than three days later.

[ironhorse]

Then you stand in contradiction to yourself, Ironhorse.

 

You wrote NOTHING, but now you wish to make exceptions to your own one-word statement.

 

I must say, it takes a rare talent to write just one word and then to disagree with it, less than three days later.

 

 

I must confess BAA, I did laugh at myself reading your reply.

 

You are right. It did take me time. 

 

Thanks for your comments. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Then you stand in contradiction to yourself, Ironhorse.

 

You wrote NOTHING, but now you wish to make exceptions to your own one-word statement.

 

I must say, it takes a rare talent to write just one word and then to disagree with it, less than three days later.

 

 

I must confess BAA, I did laugh at myself reading your reply.

 

You are right. It did take me time. 

 

Thanks for your comments. 

 

 

Well, I'm pleased that your ability to contradict yourself afforded you some amusement, Ironhorse.

 

What I'm not so pleased about is the fact that you couldn't see the contradiction for yourself and had to have it pointed out to you.  

 

Also, I'm not at all pleased (troubled and disturbed, in fact) that you seem to be quite happy to persist in this self-contradiction. ("My answer is what it is.")

 

I should have thought that someone who has always pursued the truth (as you claim to do) would do his best to NOT live this way.

 

[midniterider]

 

if there is old/new/semi-new evidence that claims to totally disproves chinese dragons, lets post it here

 

 

And I doubt I could find a discussion board where that topic is being hotly debated.

 

In fact, it is almost just as hard to find a discussion board where another religion is being hotly 

debated on whether it is the truth or not. 

 

No, it seems Christianity is the one trying to be put to an end. 

 

 

Well, it's Christianity, at least here in the USA, that can break up families, cause people to disown relatives, manipulate lives, exacerbate or cause mental health issues, etc.

 

You don't hear much about Chinese dragons (or a person's allegiance to them) influencing people to protest/blow up abortion clinics, influence people to take over Federal offices in Oregon, prevent gays from marrying, prevent gays from buying wedding cakes, or lovers of Jesus making caustic statements like that Lt Governor in Texas after the Orlando Shooting. 

 

At least I don't hear that much about Chinese dragon problems in the USA. China might be different.

 

Humans working on behalf of Chinese dragons dont seem to be getting arrested every week for lewdness and sexual assault of minors.

 

Christianity does have some problems in America. Separation of church and state is a double edged sword. We keep it out of government...unfortunately we are keeping government oversight out of religion and abuses are happening. But I digress.

 

One might say, "Well, for the most part Christianity is a good thing. These bad things you mentioned aren't the teachings of Jesus. They don't represent Christianity as a whole." But Christianity isn't some nebulous thing. It's each and every person who believes in Jesus.

[bornagainathiest]

 

Ironhorse wrote...

 

"BAA, you need to understand that some people who investigate the Christian faith do not always abandon it."

 

Yet, if there is evidence that would falsify Christianity (like Jesus' bones) then Christians should abandon their faith.

 

Do you agree, Ironhorse?

 

(Bump!)

 

 

(Re-bumped so that Ironhorse can undo the contradiction he's placed himself in.)

 

Do you agree, Ironhorse?