Trust Yourself

[sdelsolray]

Again you didn't answer the question

 

 

That's his MO.

 

I'm about to put the lazy coward on ignore.

[duderonomy]

 

Again you didn't answer the question

 

 

That's his MO.

 

I'm about to put the lazy coward on ignore.

 

 

 Don't do that, you'll miss the good parts!  

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Furball wrote...

 

“There are some scriptures that appear to back what you're saying...but what do you do with all the other scriptures that don't agree with what you're saying?”

 

Ironhorse replied...

 

Again let me say, I do not approach the scriptures to confirm my opinion on anything. If I come across a passage that is puzzling or seems to contradict another verse or passage, I continue to study. If I find the answer, I'm glad. If not, I will admit I do not know and continue on.  

.

.

.

That's an interesting methodology, Ironhorse.

 

If you find a Bible passage that seems to contradict another one you...

 

1. Continue to study.

 

2.  Find the answer.

 

3.  Admit you don't know and continue on.

 

So if the answer to # 2 is that they do contradict one another, what then?

 

I ask because if you don't approach the scriptures to confirm your opinion of them, then # 2 must include the possibility that your answer is a real and bona fide contradiction.

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you?

 

Or is it an article of faith for you that scripture contains no contradictions?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

(Bump!)

 

 

 

Or is it an article of faith for you that scripture contains no contradictions?

~BAA

 

 

No, my faith is based in Christ and Christ alone.

 

My trust in Christ and the scriptures does not fail because I can’t explain or understand a passage of scripture.

 

 

Now tell us about scripture, rather than leave us to conclude what you mean about it Ironhorse.

 

Specifically, do you allow for the possibility that scripture contains contradictions in option # 2?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Would your faith in christ alone be affected if it could be shown that christ contradicted himself?

 

 

Where do you think Christ contradicted himself?

 

Is that a "yes"?

[bornagainathiest]

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

[florduh]

No, my faith is based in Christ and Christ alone.

 

The Christ character is a creation of the Bible. Your idea of what Christ is, what he says and actually means is derived from the Bible and what people have told you it really says. The whole house of cards rests on a very fallible, questionable, often demonstrably inaccurate collection of ancient writings and redaction.

[midniterider]

 

No, my faith is based in Christ and Christ alone.

 

The Christ character is a creation of the Bible. Your idea of what Christ is, what he says and actually means is derived from the Bible and what people have told you it really says. The whole house of cards rests on a very fallible, questionable, often demonstrably inaccurate collection of ancient writings and redaction.

Wow! I am writing that down for later! +1

 

If faith is based on Christ and not the bible then why read the bible?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

No, my faith is based in Christ and Christ alone.

The Christ character is a creation of the Bible. Your idea of what Christ is, what he says and actually means is derived from the Bible and what people have told you it really says. The whole house of cards rests on a very fallible, questionable, often demonstrably inaccurate collection of ancient writings and redaction.

Wow! I am writing that down for later! +1

 

If faith is based on Christ and not the bible then why read the bible?

 

Because jesus and the bible are the same thing.

 

"In the beginning was The Word^TM and The Word^TM was with god, and The Word^TM was god, and The Word^TM became flesh and dwelt among us."

 

jesus IS the bible; and the bible is god.  So, Ironhorse can place his faith in jesus alone, and in the bible alone.

 

It's a fucking mystery, you god damn heathens.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

Would your faith in christ alone be affected if it could be shown that christ contradicted himself?

 

 

Where do you think Christ contradicted himself?

 

Is that a "yes"?

 

Is your silence an answer?

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

No, my faith is based in Christ and Christ alone.

The Christ character is a creation of the Bible. Your idea of what Christ is, what he says and actually means is derived from the Bible and what people have told you it really says. The whole house of cards rests on a very fallible, questionable, often demonstrably inaccurate collection of ancient writings and redaction.

 

Wow! I am writing that down for later! +1

 

If faith is based on Christ and not the bible then why read the bible?

 

Because jesus and the bible are the same thing.

 

"In the beginning was The Word^TM and The Word^TM was with god, and The Word^TM was god, and The Word^TM became flesh and dwelt among us."

 

jesus IS the bible; and the bible is god.  So, Ironhorse can place his faith in jesus alone, and in the bible alone.

 

It's a fucking mystery, you god damn heathens.

 

 

 

“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.”

 

~ John 5:39-40 (The Message)

[bornagainathiest]

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

(Bump!)

 

Please don't make me ask another seven times, Ironhorse.

[florduh]

“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.”

 

And that bit of advice itself is quoted from . .  the Bible! It always comes back to the Bible. There is no Christianity, no Jesus other than as depicted in the unreliable writings of ancient tribes. 

 

Get a clue.

[ironhorse]

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

(Bump!)

 

Please don't make me ask another seven times, Ironhorse.

 

 

 

Yes, I said this in post #202:

 

I move on. Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible. I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, Ironhorse, according to the scripture I quoted, and supported by the scripture you quoted, we see that Jesus and the bible really are the same.

 

Now, in another thread here, you just admitted that the bible contains contradictions; but the other day you were asking me when Jesus ever contradicted himself.

 

With all of this in mind, my question is:

What's 2 and 2?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

(Bump!)

 

Please don't make me ask another seven times, Ironhorse.

 

 

Yes, I said this in post #202:

 

I move on. Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible. I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.

 

 

No you didn't, Ironhorse.  

 

Please don't lie to me and please don't lie to the other members and the lurkers who are reading this.  You know full well that you haven't answered my question with anything you wrote in # 202.  As I will now show.  My comments, added to what you wrote in # 202, are in blue.

 

In # 202, you wrote...

I move on.  I didn't ask about this.

Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible.  I didn't ask about this either.

I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.  Nor this.

 

And yes, we all have other stuff in life to attend to.   Nor this.

Right now, I’m busy with tending the garden and doing some fishing.  Nor this.

I thank God for every day.  Nor this.

.

.

.

But this is what I asked.

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?   

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

.

.

.

So please answer my question by checking either Yes or No.

 

And please don't make me have to ask you seven more times.

 

And please don't make me have to PM you to get you to declare your hand.

 

And please don't try and trick me me by answering a different question to the Yes/No one I've put to you.

 

And please don't type out blatant and barefaced lies in your posts.

 

And please show more respect for your fellow members by realizing that they aren't fooled by your antics any more than I am.

[midniterider]

"Confusion" -  I can keep reading the bible and believing it. 

"Contradiction" - The bible has errors. My belief system may be suspect. 

 

I suppose the inevitable next question for IH is, "Why do you not strive to understand the scriptures which you find confusing?"

 

I will admit though that I have a great book explaining some concepts in quantum mechanics that confuses me. So I put the book down for a while. Then pick it up later. I don't understand some algebra. And I dont want to either.  

 

This comparison of the scientific thought vs biblical thought is probably apples vs oranges though. I just felt like cutting IH some slack though. Rare, agnostic compassion. lol. 

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

(Bump!)

 

Please don't make me ask another seven times, Ironhorse.

 

Yes, I said this in post #202:

 

I move on. Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible. I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.

 

 

No you didn't, Ironhorse.  

 

Please don't lie to me and please don't lie to the other members and the lurkers who are reading this.  You know full well that you haven't answered my question with anything you wrote in # 202.  As I will now show.  My comments, added to what you wrote in # 202, are in blue.

 

In # 202, you wrote...

I move on.  I didn't ask about this.

Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible.  I didn't ask about this either.

I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.  Nor this.

 

And yes, we all have other stuff in life to attend to.   Nor this.

Right now, I’m busy with tending the garden and doing some fishing.  Nor this.

I thank God for every day.  Nor this.

.

.

.

But this is what I asked.

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?   

 

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

.

.

.

So please answer my question by checking either Yes or No.

 

And please don't make me have to ask you seven more times.

 

And please don't make me have to PM you to get you to declare your hand.

 

And please don't try and trick me me by answering a different question to the Yes/No one I've put to you.

 

And please don't type out blatant and barefaced lies in your posts.

 

And please show more respect for your fellow members by realizing that they aren't fooled by your antics any more than I am.

 

 

 

"Yes, I said this in post #202:

 

I move on. Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible. I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.

 

 

My "Yes" in the above was my answer to your question of yes and no. The reason I referred to post#202 to again my explanation on what I do.

 

My apologies for not wording it clearer.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

 

(Bump!)

 

Please don't make me ask another seven times, Ironhorse.

 

Yes, I said this in post #202:

 

I move on. Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible. I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.

 

 

No you didn't, Ironhorse.  

 

Please don't lie to me and please don't lie to the other members and the lurkers who are reading this.  You know full well that you haven't answered my question with anything you wrote in # 202.  As I will now show.  My comments, added to what you wrote in # 202, are in blue.

 

In # 202, you wrote...

I move on.  I didn't ask about this.

Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible.  I didn't ask about this either.

I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.  Nor this.

 

And yes, we all have other stuff in life to attend to.   Nor this.

Right now, I’m busy with tending the garden and doing some fishing.  Nor this.

I thank God for every day.  Nor this.

.

.

.

But this is what I asked.

 

You do allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions in option # 2, don't you, Ironhorse?   

 

 

Please check one option.

 

Yes.

 

No.

.

.

.

So please answer my question by checking either Yes or No.

 

And please don't make me have to ask you seven more times.

 

And please don't make me have to PM you to get you to declare your hand.

 

And please don't try and trick me me by answering a different question to the Yes/No one I've put to you.

 

And please don't type out blatant and barefaced lies in your posts.

 

And please show more respect for your fellow members by realizing that they aren't fooled by your antics any more than I am.

 

 

 

"Yes, I said this in post #202:

 

I move on. Scripture verses or passages that confuse me do not deter my faith in Christ or my trust in the Bible. I move on and enjoy learning what I can and in awe of the mysteries I do not.

 

 

My "Yes" in the above was my answer to your question of yes and no. The reason I referred to post#202 to again my explanation on what I do.

 

My apologies for not wording it clearer.

 

 

Thank you for that clarification, Ironhorse.

 

Three more questions.

 

1.  How many years have you been following this procedure?

 

2.  Seeing as you allow for the possibility of scriptural contradictions - how many have you found in that time?

 

3.  Where are they?  (The chapter and verse of these conflicting passages, please.) 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[pratt]

ironhorse

 

believes whatever he like to believe

if he understands that part of bible that coincides with how he believe god is supposedly to be, then it is in the bible and it is the truth

if he does not understand or pretend not to understand any part of the bible or its mention of god's character, he is in awe of the mystery of god,,,,

 

in any case, it is a win win situation for him, and to him alone, thats critical thinking,,,,,,,

 

think i summarised his operandus in this forum in a nutshell

 

really hate his reference to bob dyan n the rest of the music,,,,,

[ironhorse]

 

 

My reply to BAA’s three questions:

 

1.I don’t understand your need for a number since you have never accepted anything I have posted about my study of the Bible or the Christian message and faith. If you remember, I grew up in a house where this criticism of the Bible was a topic often discussed. I have known early on that the scriptures contained passages that are often viewed as contradictions and some are very difficult to explain and others, with further study, have a reasonable explanation. The discrepancies I cannot find an answer for do not deter me in my faith or my trust in the scriptures.

 

2.Again you ask for an exact number. I would say I have reviewed hundreds.

 

3.Why should I list them? They are readily available online.

 

http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

 

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/08/19/an-incredible-interactive-chart-of-biblical-contradictions/

 

http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/contradictions.htm

[bornagainathiest]

My reply to BAA’s three questions:

 

1.I don’t understand your need for a number since you have never accepted anything I have posted about my study of the Bible or the Christian message and faith. If you remember, I grew up in a house where this criticism of the Bible was a topic often discussed. I have known early on that the scriptures contained passages that are often viewed as contradictions and some are very difficult to explain and others, with further study, have a reasonable explanation. The discrepancies I cannot find an answer for do not deter me in my faith or my trust in the scriptures.

 

Ironhorse,

 

You are also making a false accusation against me.  

Yesterday I thanked you for clarifying what you said in post  # 202, which was about how you study the Bible.  So, I must have readily accepted your clarification about how you perform your Bible studies, mustn't I?  Which means that your claim about me never accepting anything you've posted about how you study the Bible is... false.  Please retract it.

 

Now, since your reason for not providing the number of years you've followed your chosen procedure for studying the Bible has vanished, please answer the question.  How many years?

 

2.Again you ask for an exact number. I would say I have reviewed hundreds.

 

Thank you.  (See how I readily accepted this?)

 

3.Why should I list them? They are readily available online.

 

(Snip!)

 

Why?

 

Inquiring minds want to know.  That's why.  Or if that's not a good enough reason for you, please consider listing them as a part of "representing" your Christian faith to us.  

 

Also, since post # 191 this thread has focused on how YOU perform your study of the Bible, not how other people have done so.

 

Therefore, please list (with chapter and verse) the contradictions YOU have found in the (insert number here) years you have been following your chosen procedure.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Jeff]

I'm curious to hear this one for sure. ^

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

When did God decide that he hated Esau?  Was it...

 

 

A.  At the moment Esau decided to sell his birthright?

 

B.  Before either Jacob or Esau were born?

 

C.  Before creation.

 

(Bump!)

 

 

 

I cannot answer that question, only God knows the answer.

 

False.  

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie,

    not a human being, that he should change his mind.

 

 

Therefore God always hated Esau.  From before creation.  For eternity.  

 

Esau was a object of destruction created only by God to show God's glory in the world and then be incinerated in the fire.

 

Which is exactly what the apostle Paul said and meant.

 

 

I do know our English definition of "hate" being used is not the meaning stated in this passage of scripture.  The  Hebrew word is : “sane” (“saw-nay”). This word does not mean the idea of hatred as in to despise or detest but instead means “preferred over”

 

 

That changes nothing.

 

Jacob was preferred over Esau by God... eternally.

 

Meaning that Esau was still created as an object of God's wrath. 

 

 

 

What I posted about the word used for "hate" does matter in understanding.

 

Hated can be switched for preferred or any other word that means that God had made up His mind about Esau's life BEFORE He created the universe.  

Pick any word you like, Ironhorse.  The logic of my argument (God's mind is eternal and unchanging) won't be altered by any word you use.  God's always had it in His mind to prefer/hate/chose/elect/whatever Jacob over Esau.  The only way you can counter or refute my argument is if you can show that God's mind is changed by events happening in His creation.

 

The Bible nowhere states that Esau was destroyed or destined for Hell.

This is not a story that proves God elects some to Heaven and others to Hell. 

 

But my argument about events in time and space not changing God's mind still stands.  The Nahum quote is key to it.   But please do show me where scripture says that changes His mind according to events in His creation.  If you do that then you'll have highlighted another contradiction within the pages of the Bible.

 

I believe exactly what God was saying when He loved Jacob and hated Esau. It was not that He literally hated Esau, but rather, that he chose Jacob over Esau as the person through which the Israelites and the Messianic line would come.

 

See my comments above.

 

Even though God chose to work this  through Jacob, the scriptures shows that God blessed Esau as well, promising Rebekah a nation would come from him (Gen 25:23), and fulfilling that promise by giving Esau Mt. Seir and the country of Edom (Num 20:14-21)(Gen 32:3)(Deut 2:5)(Josh 24:4). God also blessed Esau with much livestock and descendents (Gen 36:6-8)(Gen 33:9), and told the Israelites not to detest the Edomites because they were brothers (Deut 23:7), and He would not give the Israelites any of their land (Deut 2:5).

 

 

And all of the above were ordained to happen by God before Genesis 1 : 1.

 

No decision or choice made by Jacob, Esau or Rebekah changed what had always been in God's mind.  

 

Do you agree?

 

 

(Bump!)

 

 

(Re-bump!)

 

Do you agree, Ironhorse?

[ironhorse]

 

 

And all of the above were ordained to happen by God before Genesis 1 : 1.

No decision or choice made by Jacob, Esau or Rebekah changed what had always been in God's mind.

Do you agree?

~ BAA

 

There were no other choices or actions they could make to change the order of events. God knew what the final outcome would be.

So,in that context, my answer to your question is yes.

 

Here is a link about God’s foreknowledge and free will:

 

“Throughout the Scriptures we find a tension revealed between the reality of God’s sovereign foreknowledge and predestination and the reality that we also truly have free will.”

 

http://www.johnburkeonline.com/sovereignty-vs-free-will-resolved/

[florduh]

As the article stated,

 

But how do we understand this paradox? Really we can’t....

 

 

Many people simply decide to believe something that makes no sense and is self-contradictory. They call this abdication of reason and thought "faith."