Trust Yourself

[florduh]

I would hate a god like you describe. I would hate such a puppet master.

 

Sorry, but that is the god described in the Bible.

 

You have redefined that particular deity into a kinder, gentler version that is more palatable to you. But that's not what the Bible says about this god.

[dangitbobby83]

 

I would hate a god like you describe. I would hate such a puppet master.

God expressed more love and compassion than any being in the universe by granting us free will.

 

 

- Except god is a puppet master. He constantly interferes with free will, according to christians, and it happens loads of times in the bible. Plus, the entire doctrine of the Holy Spirit is him interfering with free will. You're given free will...but you must submit to his will by choice, otherwise bad shit will happen. So he doesn't want robots, he wants people who are willing to pretend to be robots. Gotcha.

 

- Showed love by granting free will...then sends us to hell when we don't use it how he likes. Gotcha.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

Here's what I wrote to you in the Some Notes About Me thread, with one word changed.

So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?

Those that don't, never exist and their free will is not actually violated because they remain as un-actualized thoughts in the eternal mind of God.

The same point applies.  God commits no killing and no crime if he only creates those he foreknows will love him.  But by letting this pointless war go ahead he causes the kind of collateral damage in the pics below, where millions are forced to endure lives of pain, misery and indignity, followed by fiery incineration at his hand.  Please explain how letting this happen to even one person is a good, kind, loving, compassionate and merciful thing, Ironhorse.

 

Thank you.

 

So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?

 

So God can create angels, peer into the future, and then press rewind and then not create those who make the wrong choice. What kind of weird time zig zag is that? 

Just as there are physical limitations in the universe, God also has limitations. He can’t create a rock he cannot move. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable.

 

No, Ironhorse.  

 

You're not paying attention.

God doesn't have to let anything play out or rewind anything.  Before he creates anything he already knows who will turn to evil and who won't.  Before, Ironhorse.  BEFORE the creation.  BEFORE!   Got it  now?  God is eternal... but heaven, the angels, the physical universe and humans are not.  God has all knowledge and perfect foreknowledge of everything and anything he chooses to create.So, utilizing what he foreknows b-e-f-o-r-e he creates anything or anyone, he chooses to create only those humans and angels that will love him, only do good and who will never rebel.

 

Those that don't, never exist and their free will is not actually violated because they remain as un-actualized thoughts in the eternal mind of God.

 

“They” cannot remain anywhere, even un-actualized thoughts, if they never existed.

 

The un-created beings remain in God's mind, as unexpressed thoughts.

 

 

The same point applies.  God commits no killing and no crime if he only creates those he foreknows will love him.  But by letting this pointless war go ahead he causes the kind of collateral damage in the pics below, where millions are forced to endure lives of pain, misery and indignity, followed by fiery incineration at his hand.  Please explain how letting this happen to even one person is a good, kind, loving, compassionate and merciful thing, Ironhorse.

 

I would hate a god like you describe. I would hate such a puppet master.

God expressed more love and compassion than any being in the universe by granting us free will.

 

 

This God 2.0 doesn't violate the free will of his creations - he acts upon it in advance.  There is a difference and there is no puppetry.  His creations have their free choices fulfilled by God before they make them.  

[TheOutsider]

It's not an issue of omnipresence or omnipotence. It's the omniscience thing that destroys your point.

 

God knows everything. Right? He doesn't have to make a trial run, then restart without the offending parties. He already knew exactly who would be saved and who would be condemned to hell. All he would have to have done is not make those of us that he knew would reject him or rebel against him. Problem solved. Everything would be perfect.

 

He knew Lucifer would rebel, he knew every angel that would turn against him, he knew every human that would reject him. he knew exactly how everything would unfold before he did anything. He could have just not made us, or anyone that would have rejected him.

 

And perhaps worse than that, he made everyone, precisely the way they are. Everything we do, everything I'm typing, everything you're typing, is exactly to his script. We are puppets in a sick macabre act lead by a bloodthirsty, monstrous god. And we feel, we are self aware.

He punishes us infinitely for doing exactly what he made us to do, and rewards others for exactly the same criteria. I suggest, if you need a god, you find some other mythology to invest in. I seriously have no idea how you can stomach this one.

 

If your god is real, free will is a joke. An excuse for him not taking any responsibility for what he started. An excuse he uses to endlessly torture us for doing exactly what we where programmed to. Not a gift.

 

What does it say about those that worship such a monster? And worse yet, you try so hard to convince everyone the monster you worship is an unquestionably holy, good, and righteous being. All while the biggest piece of evidence to the contrary is looming overhead, and often used as a threat to scare new members, and worse yet children, into the fold. And to keep existing members from leaving.

 

Now, just so we are clear, I don't believe for a second your god actually exists. Bad shit happens, good shit happens, all sorts of shit just happens. No big plan, no reason, it just is what it is. I don't blame your god, I don't believe he exists outside of your imagination. I'm pretending.

 

I don't actually think you're a bad person, frustratingly predictable sometimes, but not bad. The problem with Christianity is that it's built on so much contradictory bullshit. Yahweh is a violent, bloodthirsty tribal god, you do worship a monster. One that would probably hate you to no end were it actually real, because you don't belong to it's tribe. But at least before Christianity he would just have you killed along with everyone you know, and that would be it. Post Christianity however, his wrath doesn't stop at death. That's when it really begins. And it never ends.

What is your crime? You didn't believe the right things. Or maybe you didn't stroke his ego cock the right way, or at all. That's it.

How compassionate is that, exactly?

[midniterider]

I realize the following is not a full answer not answer but it might help you to understand my point of view when we continue on in this topic.

 

To gain more understanding and the why or why nots of the narrative of the fall of man, I think we must go back to a much earlier event: the fall of Lucifer.

The scriptures tell that Lucifer one of the highest ranking angels.

At some point he decided to set himself up against God.

He was persuasive enough to have one third of angels to join him in this rebellion. So the question here is why didn’t God simply destroy Lucifer along with the others? God can do all things right? Snap his God finger, utter “Be gone.” No rebellion, no sin, no problem.

 

This a story helped me understand this a little better:

Pretend there are many citizens of a great kingdom ruled by a powerful magical king. The kingdom has always been at peace and the citizens happy, then one day one of his generals rebels against the king. He claims he can do better than the king.  He says some things that sound pretty persuasive. He soon gains a huge following. The rest of the citizens know of this (some are even having thoughts they might join the rebellion) and wait to see what the powerful king will do.

What if the powerful king uses his magical powers and immediately kills and destroys the rebels.

What would the other citizens think?

How would they view the king’s action?

Would they understand his action?

Would this cause more questions?

 

I heard Billy Graham answer this question once. He said it is easy to think God should have just destroyed Lucifer from the start or never created him in the first place but God took another view.

God decided to let the rebellion play out. He allowed this to prove to all in the universe that Lucifer’s ways are destructive and would cause great harm.

The scriptures speak of a great war in the universe.

I remember talking about this with some friends a few years after the first Star Wars movie. We had a great time speculating about what this war between God and Lucifer was waged.

Whatever it entailed, it was a major event in the universe and the battle continues here on earth.

 

Couldn't God just tweak Lucifer's thought processes a bit so he'd be more compliant and pacified so none of this rebellion stuff would occur? 

 

Seems to me that at any time, an all powerful being could 'adjust' everyone on earth to be peaceful and forget some bad stuff that some bad person was cooking up.

 

Regarding a king, well a king is just a man and doesn't have those thought tweaking powers. He had to deal with people on a non-supernatural basis. It seems the writers of the bible didnt have much imagination regarding God's powers.

[rjn]

What is your crime?

 

Being born?

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

Since you seem to struggling to understand, please read this and pay special attention to verses 4 and 16.

 

Psalm 139 For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.

 

1 You have searched me, Lord,  and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before, and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.

 

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?  Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,”
12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.

 

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you.

 

19 If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

 

What this means is that everything about that David's life was known to God before he was born.  

In fact, before Genesis 1 : 1, when heaven and the physical universe were created by God.  And what is true for David is also true for every human being.  God has always known everything about everyone, human or angel.  That's what it means to be eternal.  Not being bound by any limitation of time or place.  Just as the psalm describes.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Here's another one for you, Ironhorse.

 

Check out verses 22 and 23.

 

Romans 9 : 14 - 24.

 

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?  

 

See?

God prepared some people in advance for destruction and some people in advance for glory.  But with God 2.0 and Creation 2.0 nobody is prepared in advance for either destruction or suffering.  God 2.0 has the same powers as God 1.0, but His Creation 2.0 is superior to Creation 1.0 because there is no evil, no sin, no death and no suffering.

 

Think some more about it.

 

 

[sdelsolray]

Yeah, according to the myth, this Christian God really messed things up...an abject failure.  He screwed up with Adam and Eve, the Tower of Babel, the Great Flood, the Jesus stunt and plans to screw up again on Judgment Day.

[duderonomy]

BAA: "So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?"

Ironhorse: "So God can create angels, peer into the future, and then press rewind and then not create those who make the wrong choice. What kind of weird time zig zag is that?
Just as there are physical limitations in the universe, God also has limitations. He can’t create a rock he cannot move. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable."

 

I see BAA already answered this above. I think it's interesting that IH doesn't believe his god has all power and knows the end from the beginning. Maybe the Bible's  blustering about future Hellfire and damnation is bullshit too?  

If god can't create a rock he can't move, was Jesus wrong about all things being possible with god?

 

Ironhorse, your god is too small. 

[sdelsolray]

BAA: "So why doesn't God simply create only those angels he foreknows will love him, Ironhorse?"

 

Ironhorse: "So God can create angels, peer into the future, and then press rewind and then not create those who make the wrong choice. What kind of weird time zig zag is that?

Just as there are physical limitations in the universe, God also has limitations. He can’t create a rock he cannot move. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable."

 

I see BAA already answered this above. I think it's interesting that IH doesn't believe his god has all power and knows the end from the beginning. Maybe the Bible's  blustering about future Hellfire and damnation is bullshit too?  

If god can't create a rock he can't move, was Jesus wrong about all things being possible with god?

 

Ironhorse, your god is too small. 

 

 

Apparently, Tin Pony's god is too small.  Maybe he can find some apologetic author that talks about that.

[ironhorse]

Since I have been told to think about some scripture, I thought (before I answer the post) I would like to explain how I view the scriptures and what I try to do to help in my understanding.

 

“Do you think you can explain the mystery of God?
    Do you think you can diagram God Almighty?
God is far higher than you can imagine,
    far deeper than you can comprehend,

 

~ Job 11:7-12 (The Message)

 

I have never bought into this idea that some have that understanding God is easy. I never bought it because it is not what I read in the scriptures. The verse from Job is just one of many verses that speak on the mystery of God.

 

I can know and understand some of the Bible but I should take note that I will not be able to comprehend all of it. Some might argue that this is stupid, “God should lay it all out so we can understand it all.”

 

Why? Why think that? I like a good mystery.

I do know the central message from the scriptures. It is very simple.

 

“ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

~ John 3:16 (NIV)

 

That one verse reveals a lot about God. It assures me of God’s love and his promises. There is not one other verse in the Bible that would make me doubt what I believe about God or other scriptures.

I read and study the Bible, not to know everything, but to gain more understanding and hopefully apply what I learn to my own life. I’m not afraid I’m going to commit some sin and be rejected by God.

 

“Come. Sit down. Let’s argue this out.”
    This is God’s Message:

 

~ Isaiah 1:18 (The Message)

 

The King James Version uses the word “reason” this out.

 

 

"Study to show yourself approved by God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

~ Timothy 2:15  (MEV)

 

 

The scriptures encourage me to think and to study. It would be arrogant of me to assume I can read through scriptures and instantly understand it.

 

Unfortunately some do and then spend their time either denouncing or defending their point of view.
Some who do this and claim to believe the Bible are worshiping the Bible. The Bible becomes an idol to them, not the living person the scriptures point to;

 

“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.

~ John 5:39-40 (The Message)

 

 

The Bible not only reveals the Word of God, It also reveals the most vivid descriptions of human struggles and experiences ever written. It does not hide or sugar coat anything.

This makes it the most God enriched of all books and also the most human of all books.

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

Logic is a mighty weapon when it comes to understanding the scriptures.

 

Let me give you a free sample.

.

.

.

Your very simple central message of the scriptures is founded upon events in Genesis.

 

The events described in Eden demonstrate that God did evil, making this central message a lie.

 

If you logically examine the text of Genesis 1 - 3 you will see this for yourself.

.

.

.

I would be happy to help you do this.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

So God can create angels, peer into the future, and then press rewind and then not create those who make the wrong choice. What kind of weird time zig zag is that? 

Just as there are physical limitations in the universe, God also has limitations. He can’t create a rock he cannot move. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable.

 

[snip] 

 

I would hate a god like you describe. I would hate such a puppet master.

God expressed more love and compassion than any being in the universe by granting us free will.

Others have already pointed out the problems with your answer, Ironhorse, so I merely add to what they said.

 

By definition, an omnipotent being CAN do anything that is logically possible. A rock that an omnipotent being cannot move is not "conceivable." What you say above is just wrong. Such a rock is like a square triangle. There is a linkage of words in each case, but the phrase does not refer to any thing, since the contradiction in each case renders the phrase merely an expression of "a materially false idea." The latter is not my wording. It was used by one of my freshman year philosophy profs when I asked him questions very like what you are trying to ask.

 

Even by classical Christian theology, your understanding of Christianity's God is confused. Therefore, your attempts to get God off the hook by appealing to the way you think He limits himself are not successful.

 

The last sentence of yours above again shows considerable confusion.

1. BAA already pointed out that Romans says that God created some creatures as vessels for destruction. There is NO BIBLE VERSE in which the term "free will" occurs. "Free will" is not a biblical concept. God's sovereignty is.

2. leaving point 1. aside, you render the words "love" and "compassion" meaningless when you imagine a universe, in which the cost of God's getting "free will" worship from some of His creatures is suffering on an enormous scale of many, if not the majority, of His other creatures.

3. I think recently you maintained that there is no eternal torment of the damned but only their annihilation. I.e. you side with Thumbelina on this? There is no reason why we should accept this heterodox position as classically Christian, since it is denied by all the historic creeds and orthodox theologians. A Christianity jerry-rigged by Ironhorse has no credibility.

[bornagainathiest]

Since I have been told to think about some scripture, I thought (before I answer the post) I would like to explain how I view the scriptures and what I try to do to help in my understanding.

 

“Do you think you can explain the mystery of God?

    Do you think you can diagram God Almighty?

God is far higher than you can imagine,

    far deeper than you can comprehend,

 

~ Job 11:7-12 (The Message)

 

I have never bought into this idea that some have that understanding God is easy. I never bought it because it is not what I read in the scriptures. The verse from Job is just one of many verses that speak on the mystery of God.

 

I can know and understand some of the Bible but I should take note that I will not be able to comprehend all of it. Some might argue that this is stupid, “God should lay it all out so we can understand it all.”

 

Why? Why think that? I like a good mystery.

I do know the central message from the scriptures. It is very simple.

 

“ For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

 

~ John 3:16 (NIV)

 

That one verse reveals a lot about God. It assures me of God’s love and his promises. There is not one other verse in the Bible that would make me doubt what I believe about God or other scriptures.

I read and study the Bible, not to know everything, but to gain more understanding and hopefully apply what I learn to my own life. I’m not afraid I’m going to commit some sin and be rejected by God.

 

“Come. Sit down. Let’s argue this out.”

    This is God’s Message:

 

~ Isaiah 1:18 (The Message)

 

The King James Version uses the word “reason” this out.

 

 

"Study to show yourself approved by God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

~ Timothy 2:15  (MEV)

 

 

The scriptures encourage me to think and to study. It would be arrogant of me to assume I can read through scriptures and instantly understand it.

 

Unfortunately some do and then spend their time either denouncing or defending their point of view.

Some who do this and claim to believe the Bible are worshiping the Bible. The Bible becomes an idol to them, not the living person the scriptures point to;

 

“You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you’ll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren’t willing to receive from me the life you say you want.

~ John 5:39-40 (The Message)

 

 

The Bible not only reveals the Word of God, It also reveals the most vivid descriptions of human struggles and experiences ever written. It does not hide or sugar coat anything.

This makes it the most God enriched of all books and also the most human of all books.

 

Here's something about idolatry, Ironhorse.

 

I've highlighted two parts of your post.

The first one refers to position on John 3 : 16 and the second refers to people who claim to believe the Bible, but who actually worshiping it and not worshiping Jesus.  Which is idolatry.  But just look at what you say about John 3 : 16!  You elevate it above all other verses of scripture.  You hold it in special esteem above every other part of the Bible.  You are also using it ignore, dismiss and downplay what other parts of scripture say.  You are using it as a means of stopping yourself from understanding scripture better.  You are overly absorbed with that verse to the exclusion of the rest of God's word.

 

Yet 2 Timothy 3 : 16 & 17 says...

 

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 

17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

ALL scripture, Ironhorse.  ALL of it.

By focusing so tightly on that one verse and not treating all of scripture equally you are making yourself unfit and ill-equipped to do God's work.  Is that what God wants for you?

.

.

.

More seriously Ironhorse, can you see what you're doing with John 3 : 16 and what that verse is becoming to you?

You are becoming the very thing you denounced.  You are becoming an idolater and that verse is becoming your idol.  You are beginning to revere John 3 : 16 and to treat it as superior to the rest of the Bible.  You have placed it on a pedestal and are started building your faith around it.  You are making it the central, when it should not occupy such a place.  You are falling into Gideon's error and starting to worship something other than God Himself.  (See Judges 8 : 22 - 27)

.

.

.

Yes, you wrote about the idolatry of others, unaware that you are becoming just like them.

 

Let this be a warning to you!

 

 

BAA.

[ironhorse]

ficino, here is my reply to you post.

 

 

By definition, an omnipotent being CAN do anything that is logically possible. A rock that an omnipotent being cannot move is not "conceivable." What you say above is just wrong. Such a rock is like a square triangle. There is a linkage of words in each case, but the phrase does not refer to any thing, since the contradiction in each case renders the phrase merely an expression of "a materially false idea."

 

 

I agree with you an omnipotent being CAN do anything that is logically possible but part of the definition of the word conceivable is imagined.  I can imagine a rock God could not move.

 

Just as there are physical limitations in the universe, God also has limitations. He can’t create a rock he cannot move. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable.

 

I stand by my reply to BAA’s question. For God create/then not create a person is illogical. 

 

Even by classical Christian theology, your understanding of Christianity's God is confused. Therefore, your attempts to get God off the hook by appealing to the way you think He limits himself are not successful.

 

Friend, the one true eternal living god of this universe does not need me to get Him off of any hook. I don't claim to be an expert on the scriptures or keep Jesus in my pocket or throw his name around like a piece of bubblegum. I'm just here sharing what I have tried to learn along the way. As the saying goes, "I'm just a beggar, trying to tell another beggar where to find food."

 

The last sentence of yours above again shows considerable confusion.
1. BAA already pointed out that Romans says that God created some creatures as vessels for destruction. There is NO BIBLE VERSE in which the term "free will" occurs. "Free will" is not a biblical concept. God's sovereignty is.

 

 

Yes, BAA did point to the scriptures in Romans. He did not however give a thorough examination of the text or explanation. He did post a comment but when dealing with some of Paul’s letters you have to tred slow and carefully before rushing to a conclusion.

I have not yet posted an explanation of Romans 9.

 

There are several words and phrases we use when dealing with concepts and ideas in the Bible. For example the word trinity and the word rapture.

The concept of free will and that I mean we are free to make choices, is taught in the scriptures.
 
Here is one example:

 

"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

 

~ Joshua  24:14,15 (NIV)

 

Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

[bornagainathiest]

ficino, here is my reply to you post.

 

 

By definition, an omnipotent being CAN do anything that is logically possible. A rock that an omnipotent being cannot move is not "conceivable." What you say above is just wrong. Such a rock is like a square triangle. There is a linkage of words in each case, but the phrase does not refer to any thing, since the contradiction in each case renders the phrase merely an expression of "a materially false idea."

 

 

I agree with you an omnipotent being CAN do anything that is logically possible but part of the definition of the word conceivable is imagined.  I can imagine a rock God could not move.

 

Just as there are physical limitations in the universe, God also has limitations. He can’t create a rock he cannot move. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable.

 

I stand by my reply to BAA’s question. For God create/then not create a person is illogical. 

 

You still haven't properly understood me if you think I'm talking about God creating and then un-creating a person, Ironhorse.

That was never part of my argument - which you haven't grasped.  So I'll try again.

 

All things were unexpressed thoughts in the eternal mind of God until He expressed them by creating them.

ALL things - including heaven, the angels that populate it, the physical universe and we humans who populate it.  My argument consists of God choosing not to create certain persons but opting to create others.  Those that are created change from being unexpressed thoughts in His mind to becoming expressed thoughts with a real, physical and spiritual existence. Those that are not created remain as unexpressed thoughts in His mind, with no real, physical or spiritual existence.  Try thinking of a novelist who chooses not to populate his story with certain characters.  If he never writes about them they remain as unexpressed thoughts in his head, whereas the others who are written about achieve a new kind of existence...  outside of his mind. 

 

If the idea of God creating heaven is bothering you, then please check out Isaiah 65 : 17 and Revelation 21 : 1.  God can create as many heavens as He likes.  

 

Furthermore, it seems that besides Ficino, TheRedneckProf, The Outsider and Duderonomy see nothing illogical about my argument.   They got it from get go.  

 

Even by classical Christian theology, your understanding of Christianity's God is confused. Therefore, your attempts to get God off the hook by appealing to the way you think He limits himself are not successful.

 

Friend, the one true eternal living god of this universe does not need me to get Him off of any hook. I don't claim to be an expert on the scriptures or keep Jesus in my pocket or throw his name around like a piece of bubblegum. I'm just here sharing what I have tried to learn along the way. As the saying goes, "I'm just a beggar, trying to tell another beggar where to find food."

 

The last sentence of yours above again shows considerable confusion.

1. BAA already pointed out that Romans says that God created some creatures as vessels for destruction. There is NO BIBLE VERSE in which the term "free will" occurs. "Free will" is not a biblical concept. God's sovereignty is.

 

 

Yes, BAA did point to the scriptures in Romans. He did not however give a thorough examination of the text or explanation. He did post a comment but when dealing with some of Paul’s letters you have to tred slow and carefully before rushing to a conclusion.

I have not yet posted an explanation of Romans 9.

 

There are several words and phrases we use when dealing with concepts and ideas in the Bible. For example the word trinity and the word rapture.

The concept of free will and that I mean we are free to make choices, is taught in the scriptures.

 

Here is one example:

 

"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

 

~ Joshua  24:14,15 (NIV)

 

Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

[ironhorse]

This is my reply to BAA's post #135

 

See?

God prepared some people in advance for destruction and some people in advance for glory.  But with God 2.0 and Creation 2.0 nobody is prepared in advance for either destruction or suffering.  God 2.0 has the same powers as God 1.0, but His Creation 2.0 is superior to Creation 1.0 because there is no evil, no sin, no death and no suffering.

Think some more about it.

 

 

I have thought about it.

 

What Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans does not contradict the “whosoever believeth” in John’s Gospel. No other verse in the Bible does.

 

Now, I admit on a first reading a person might think this is what Paul is saying, but it is not.

We must very careful in reading and understanding Paul’s letters. Also with other scriptures. This is why I 

talked how to read the scriptures for better understanding in post #139

 

Why? Because Peter warned us!

 

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

~ Peter 3:16

 

This statement by Peter still rings true. All this “heath and wealth”
and “speaking in tongues” stuff we see today comes from a misreading of Paul because of failure to study  or deliberate deception.

 

 

The following is the best explanation on Romans 9 I have found.
 

http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-respond-to-romans-9/

[♦ ficino ♦]

Ironhorse, I respect your attempts to carry on a meaningful discussion. I apologize for things I said in recent weeks and withdraw them (I won't repeat them here).

 

Ordinary Clay, whom you may remember, used to argue for free will as you do above. That is, he'd cite verses where someone makes a choice, or verses where God presents a choice to humans. He thought that from those verses it follows that humans have "free will" as this concept is classically understood. I recall BAA and Citsonga and, I think, Centauri (I miss that guy) pointing out that the argument fails, because it does not follow from Joe's making a choice that God did not determine Joe's choice. Remember how God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and then later verses say that Pharaoh hardened his heart? All Pharaoh's mental acts were predestined by God. Same with the vessels of destruction in Romans.

 

I am not trying to make a Calvinist of you! Your moral intuitions, as a human being, already tell you that Calvinism is a monstrous and wicked system of thought.

 

I am on the other hand suggesting either that:

 

1. if Calvinism is biblical, then the Bible is not true;

or

2. you at least dig deeper into what's entailed by the doctrines of God's omniscience and omnipotence.

 

I'll just end with the observation that you need to examine more deeply what you said when you said that you can imagine a rock that God cannot move. We can all imagine a big divine man-like God who can't move some rock. But when we do this, we are forming humanified pictures in our head rather than working from the concept of an OMNIPOTENT God. This humanified picture entails a contradiction: you are asserting premises from which it follows that the rock can be moved by God (by definition, cuz God is omnipotent) and the rock cannot be moved by God (cuz it's a special rock). In logic, ANYTHING follows from a contradiction. If there is a rock that an all-powerful being cannot move, then the all-powerful being is not all powerful. Therefore, Ironhorse does not exist. That's a valid deduction.

 

You don't get permission to invent a special rock that breaks the laws of logic. That's the fallacy of special pleading.

 

It's a waste of time anyway. The point behind all this is the Problem of Evil. So far the "free will defense," as offered by you and many others, fails.

[sdelsolray]

So, the laws of logic defeat the omnipotence of the Abrahamic sky fairies.  How anthropic.  But since the Abrahamic sky fairies are defined by humans who use the laws of logic, it's not surrising.

[bornagainathiest]

This is my reply to BAA's post #135

 

See?

God prepared some people in advance for destruction and some people in advance for glory.  But with God 2.0 and Creation 2.0 nobody is prepared in advance for either destruction or suffering.  God 2.0 has the same powers as God 1.0, but His Creation 2.0 is superior to Creation 1.0 because there is no evil, no sin, no death and no suffering.

Think some more about it.

 

 

I have thought about it.

 

What Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans does not contradict the “whosoever believeth” in John’s Gospel. No other verse in the Bible does.

 

Now, I admit on a first reading a person might think this is what Paul is saying, but it is not.

We must very careful in reading and understanding Paul’s letters. Also with other scriptures. This is why I 

talked how to read the scriptures for better understanding in post #139

 

Why? Because Peter warned us!

 

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

~ Peter 3:16

 

This statement by Peter still rings true. All this “heath and wealth”

and “speaking in tongues” stuff we see today comes from a misreading of Paul because of failure to study  or deliberate deception.

 

 

The following is the best explanation on Romans 9 I have found.

 

http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-respond-to-romans-9/

 

Ironhorse,

 

How can a person who never exists outside of God's mind have their free will violated?

 

Romans 9 deals with God creating people and then sparing or destroying them, based upon their choices.

 

But that doesn't apply to people who never achieve any kind of existence.

 

God can foreknow the choices they would have made and still choose to keep them un-created.

 

Please address this.

 

BAA

[ironhorse]

 

This is my reply to BAA's post #135

 

See?

God prepared some people in advance for destruction and some people in advance for glory.  But with God 2.0 and Creation 2.0 nobody is prepared in advance for either destruction or suffering.  God 2.0 has the same powers as God 1.0, but His Creation 2.0 is superior to Creation 1.0 because there is no evil, no sin, no death and no suffering.

Think some more about it.

 

 

I have thought about it.

 

What Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans does not contradict the “whosoever believeth” in John’s Gospel. No other verse in the Bible does.

 

Now, I admit on a first reading a person might think this is what Paul is saying, but it is not.

We must very careful in reading and understanding Paul’s letters. Also with other scriptures. This is why I 

talked how to read the scriptures for better understanding in post #139

 

Why? Because Peter warned us!

 

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

~ Peter 3:16

 

This statement by Peter still rings true. All this “heath and wealth”

and “speaking in tongues” stuff we see today comes from a misreading of Paul because of failure to study  or deliberate deception.

 

 

The following is the best explanation on Romans 9 I have found.

 

http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-respond-to-romans-9/

 

Ironhorse,

 

How can a person who never exists outside of God's mind have their free will violated?

 

Romans 9 deals with God creating people and then sparing or destroying them, based upon their choices.

 

But that doesn't apply to people who never achieve any kind of existence.

 

God can foreknow the choices they would have made and still choose to keep them un-created.

 

Please address this.

 

BAA

 

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

How can a person who never exists outside of God's mind have their free will violated?

 

They can't. 

 

Romans 9 deals with God creating people and then sparing or destroying them, based upon their choices.

 

I agree. It also deals with Paul’s anguish over Israel.

 

But that doesn't apply to people who never achieve any kind of existence.

 

I agree.

 

God can foreknow the choices they would have made and still choose to keep them un-created.

 

How can God foreknow the choices of imaginary people? 

 

Please address this.

 

BAA

 

 

I just did and I was humming the John Lennon song "Mind Games" as I keyed along my merry way. 

[TheOutsider]

 

Omniscience!

[midniterider]

IH: Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

 

...

 

The Great Flood: God making choices for us.

[ironhorse]

IH: Scriptures are full of examples of people making choices.

We make choices; God does not make our choices for us. Yes, God already knows what choices we will make by virtue of omniscience -- he knows all of our choices already, but that doesn't mean he decided them for us.

 

...

 

The Great Flood: God making choices for us.

 

I agree with what you say about the choices being ours.

 

I don't understand what you mean by the flood is God making choices for us.