Putting An End3 To The War Between Good And Evil

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Glad you're still with me, though.

[Guest end3]

Then please put it out there. If I haven't understood what everyone wishes I would, then after 220+ posts, I'm probably not going to understand it unless it's made very plain.

 

Thanks.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Then please put it out there. If I haven't understood what everyone wishes I would, then after 220+ posts, I'm probably not going to understand it unless it's made very plain.

 

Thanks.

Well, that was kind of the point behind asking you to answer the questions.  Sometimes the answers reveal more to us than simply being told.

[quinntar]

I gather Prof. that you would wish me to understand that God asked A&E for blind obedience/trust without giving them any means to consider any of it for themselves.....and that if I could just face this truth, my eyes would be opened and my fears quelled.

 

What do I win for being correct.

Jesus end3, they didn't need to know anything to make the wrong choice. They just used their desire the wrong way, which the result was catastrophic to their relationship. But Adam & Eve didn't fall, they just shared the fruit of knowledge the wrong way. It was cain who sinned and fell, just read the bible without Christian coloured glasses.

[sdelsolray]

 

I gather Prof. that you would wish me to understand that God asked A&E for blind obedience/trust without giving them any means to consider any of it for themselves.....and that if I could just face this truth, my eyes would be opened and my fears quelled.

 

What do I win for being correct.

Jesus end3, they didn't need to know anything to make the wrong choice. They just used their desire the wrong way, which the result was catastrophic to their relationship. But Adam & Eve didn't fall, they just shared the fruit of knowledge the wrong way. It was cain who sinned and fell, just read the bible without Christian coloured glasses.

 

 

 

 

A&E sin (according to the mythology) was not against another human.  It was only against the god.  Cain's sin was against a human and the god.

[quinntar]

 

 

I gather Prof. that you would wish me to understand that God asked A&E for blind obedience/trust without giving them any means to consider any of it for themselves.....and that if I could just face this truth, my eyes would be opened and my fears quelled.

 

What do I win for being correct.

Jesus end3, they didn't need to know anything to make the wrong choice. They just used their desire the wrong way, which the result was catastrophic to their relationship. But Adam & Eve didn't fall, they just shared the fruit of knowledge the wrong way. It was cain who sinned and fell, just read the bible without Christian coloured glasses.

 

 

A&E sin (according to the mythology) was not against another human. It was only against the god. Cain's sin was against a human and the god.

Well correct me if I'm wrong (Because I could be) I don't recall OT'e God telling Adam or Eve they sinned against him, just that they fucked some shit up.

[sdelsolray]

 

 

 

I gather Prof. that you would wish me to understand that God asked A&E for blind obedience/trust without giving them any means to consider any of it for themselves.....and that if I could just face this truth, my eyes would be opened and my fears quelled.

 

What do I win for being correct.

Jesus end3, they didn't need to know anything to make the wrong choice. They just used their desire the wrong way, which the result was catastrophic to their relationship. But Adam & Eve didn't fall, they just shared the fruit of knowledge the wrong way. It was cain who sinned and fell, just read the bible without Christian coloured glasses.

 

 

A&E sin (according to the mythology) was not against another human. It was only against the god. Cain's sin was against a human and the god.

Well correct me if I'm wrong (Because I could be) I don't recall OT'e God telling Adam or Eve they sinned against him, just that they fucked some shit up.

 

 

 

 

Well, I should clarify.  The Abrahamic theologies based on that mythology say that.  What or what not the god said, as to this point, is not in play.  Theology has a life all its own.

[quinntar]

 

 

 

 

I gather Prof. that you would wish me to understand that God asked A&E for blind obedience/trust without giving them any means to consider any of it for themselves.....and that if I could just face this truth, my eyes would be opened and my fears quelled.

 

What do I win for being correct.

Jesus end3, they didn't need to know anything to make the wrong choice. They just used their desire the wrong way, which the result was catastrophic to their relationship. But Adam & Eve didn't fall, they just shared the fruit of knowledge the wrong way. It was cain who sinned and fell, just read the bible without Christian coloured glasses.

 

A&E sin (according to the mythology) was not against another human. It was only against the god. Cain's sin was against a human and the god.

Well correct me if I'm wrong (Because I could be) I don't recall OT'e God telling Adam or Eve they sinned against him, just that they fucked some shit up.

 

 

Well, I should clarify. The Abrahamic theologies based on that mythology say that. What or what not the god said, as to this point, is not in play. Theology has a life all its own.

BYOB (Bring your own beliefs)

[mwc]

Then please put it out there. If I haven't understood what everyone wishes I would, then after 220+ posts, I'm probably not going to understand it unless it's made very plain.

 

Thanks.

     For someone who seems rather big on tests you are rather reluctant to answer a few questions that could help clarify things for you and everyone else as well.  You can't really fail.  It's not that sort of test.

 

          mwc

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, End3, I would really like to move forward with this discussion.  However, I'm not going to push or coerce you.  The questions are still on the table.  If you would like to answer them, we will move forward together.  If not, see you in the next thread.

[Guest end3]

So, End3, I would really like to move forward with this discussion.  However, I'm not going to push or coerce you.  The questions are still on the table.  If you would like to answer them, we will move forward together.  If not, see you in the next thread.

Not ignoring you....have just been busy....changing carrier gas types in my instruments...dialing them back in....and other crap. Will look at them asap.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Take your time.

[Guest end3]

 

I am asking the questions now; but if you genuinely want to come to understand the truth, you'll ask them for yourself.

 

1.  Does the text say that God withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

2.  Does the text say that God then set them a test which required them to use what He'd withheld from them?

3.  Does the text say that their eyes were opened to the consequences of their actions, only after they ate the fruit?

 

and this, counting as just one...

 

Also, could you please explain to us why you think it isn't helpful to understand how God set the conditions of Adam and Eve's test?

After all, on the day this thread began, you wrote... "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."

This is confusing. Could you please help us out here? 

 

The beginning is in the answers, End3; the rest is up to you.  No more hiding; no more diverting.  It's time to man-up.  You and I have had a lot of good arguments over the years; and there's still a lot of good argument to be had in this thread.  But you can't move any closer to the truth we're all trying to help you see, if you won't open your eyes.

You ain't R-U-N-N-O-F-T again, have you, End3?

 

I think A&E were somewhat like children able to experience trust but not cognizant of weighing good vs evil through ignorance.

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response.

 

It appears that after they ate the fruit, they were imparted a leap of knowledge that moved them towards understanding good and evil at some new level.

 

How this is helpful that God kept them uninformed? Perhaps the quality God was looking for was....can't think of the right word.....absolute trust....much like Christ displayed on the last day.

[quinntar]

 

 

I am asking the questions now; but if you genuinely want to come to understand the truth, you'll ask them for yourself.

 

1. Does the text say that God withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

2. Does the text say that God then set them a test which required them to use what He'd withheld from them?

3. Does the text say that their eyes were opened to the consequences of their actions, only after they ate the fruit?

 

and this, counting as just one...

 

Also, could you please explain to us why you think it isn't helpful to understand how God set the conditions of Adam and Eve's test?

After all, on the day this thread began, you wrote... "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."

This is confusing. Could you please help us out here?

 

The beginning is in the answers, End3; the rest is up to you. No more hiding; no more diverting. It's time to man-up. You and I have had a lot of good arguments over the years; and there's still a lot of good argument to be had in this thread. But you can't move any closer to the truth we're all trying to help you see, if you won't open your eyes.

You ain't R-U-N-N-O-F-T again, have you, End3?

I think A&E were somewhat like children able to experience trust but not cognizant of weighing good vs evil through ignorance.

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response.

 

It appears that after they ate the fruit, they were imparted a leap of knowledge that moved them towards understanding good and evil at some new level.

 

How this is helpful that God kept them uninformed? Perhaps the quality God was looking for was....can't think of the right word.....absolute trust....much like Christ displayed on the last day.

Does it say it was a test end3?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

I am asking the questions now; but if you genuinely want to come to understand the truth, you'll ask them for yourself.

 

1. Does the text say that God withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

2. Does the text say that God then set them a test which required them to use what He'd withheld from them?

3. Does the text say that their eyes were opened to the consequences of their actions, only after they ate the fruit?

 

and this, counting as just one...

 

Also, could you please explain to us why you think it isn't helpful to understand how God set the conditions of Adam and Eve's test?

After all, on the day this thread began, you wrote... "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."

This is confusing. Could you please help us out here?

 

The beginning is in the answers, End3; the rest is up to you. No more hiding; no more diverting. It's time to man-up. You and I have had a lot of good arguments over the years; and there's still a lot of good argument to be had in this thread. But you can't move any closer to the truth we're all trying to help you see, if you won't open your eyes.

You ain't R-U-N-N-O-F-T again, have you, End3?

I think A&E were somewhat like children able to experience trust but not cognizant of weighing good vs evil through ignorance.

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response.

 

It appears that after they ate the fruit, they were imparted a leap of knowledge that moved them towards understanding good and evil at some new level.

 

How this is helpful that God kept them uninformed? Perhaps the quality God was looking for was....can't think of the right word.....absolute trust....much like Christ displayed on the last day.

Does it say it was a test end3?

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response

[quinntar]

 

 

 

 

I am asking the questions now; but if you genuinely want to come to understand the truth, you'll ask them for yourself.

 

1. Does the text say that God withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

2. Does the text say that God then set them a test which required them to use what He'd withheld from them?

3. Does the text say that their eyes were opened to the consequences of their actions, only after they ate the fruit?

 

and this, counting as just one...

 

Also, could you please explain to us why you think it isn't helpful to understand how God set the conditions of Adam and Eve's test?

After all, on the day this thread began, you wrote... "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."

This is confusing. Could you please help us out here?

 

The beginning is in the answers, End3; the rest is up to you. No more hiding; no more diverting. It's time to man-up. You and I have had a lot of good arguments over the years; and there's still a lot of good argument to be had in this thread. But you can't move any closer to the truth we're all trying to help you see, if you won't open your eyes.

You ain't R-U-N-N-O-F-T again, have you, End3?

I think A&E were somewhat like children able to experience trust but not cognizant of weighing good vs evil through ignorance.

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response.

 

It appears that after they ate the fruit, they were imparted a leap of knowledge that moved them towards understanding good and evil at some new level.

 

How this is helpful that God kept them uninformed? Perhaps the quality God was looking for was....can't think of the right word.....absolute trust....much like Christ displayed on the last day.

Does it say it was a test end3?

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response

Nooo he wasn't desiring a certain response, he was like...

 

Adam

Yeah God

Don't eat from that tree

What tree God?

You know, that tree

Ohhh, that tree (Gotcha)

Can I ask why God?

No! Just don't eat from it

Ok God I won't, I promise

Good

What's good God?

It's...

Oh I see God, it's on that tree

Yeah but don't tell Eve

Why God, she should know everything

Yeah adam, that's the fucking problem.

[Guest end3]

where did you go Prof?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

My apologies, End. I took Redneck Jr. camping for Father's Day. I'm putting a response together.

[qadeshet]

Here's this from the great Robert Green Ingersoll.

 

Exoneration of Jesus Christ

 

If Christ was in fact God, he knew all the future.

Before Him like a panorama moved the history yet to be. He knew how his words would be interpreted.

He knew what crimes, what horrors, what infamies, would be committed in his name. He knew that the hungry flames of persecution would climb around the limbs of countless martyrs. He knew that thousands and thousands of brave men and women would languish in dungeons in darkness, filled with pain.

He knew that his church would invent and use instruments of torture; that his followers would appeal to whip and fagot, to chain and rack. He saw the horizon of the future lurid with the flames of the auto da fe.

He knew what creeds would spring like poisonous fungi from every text. He saw the ignorant sects waging war against each other.

He saw thousands of men, under the orders of priests, building prisons for their fellow-men. He saw thousands of scaffolds dripping with the best and bravest blood. He saw his followers using the instruments of pain. He heard the groans—saw the faces white with agony.

 

The rest is great too. Wherever I turn, Mr Ingersol was there first.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

I am asking the questions now; but if you genuinely want to come to understand the truth, you'll ask them for yourself.

 

1.  Does the text say that God withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

2.  Does the text say that God then set them a test which required them to use what He'd withheld from them?

3.  Does the text say that their eyes were opened to the consequences of their actions, only after they ate the fruit?

 

and this, counting as just one...

 

Also, could you please explain to us why you think it isn't helpful to understand how God set the conditions of Adam and Eve's test?

After all, on the day this thread began, you wrote... "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."

This is confusing. Could you please help us out here? 

 

The beginning is in the answers, End3; the rest is up to you.  No more hiding; no more diverting.  It's time to man-up.  You and I have had a lot of good arguments over the years; and there's still a lot of good argument to be had in this thread.  But you can't move any closer to the truth we're all trying to help you see, if you won't open your eyes.

You ain't R-U-N-N-O-F-T again, have you, End3?

 

I think A&E were somewhat like children able to experience trust but not cognizant of weighing good vs evil through ignorance.

Clearly they didn't trust god, given that they disobeyed the one commandment he gave them.  There must have been some doubt about the consequences.

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response.

In your second response to this thread, you said, "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."  Now you're not sure.  I doubt Adam and Eve knew either, since god made a habit of withholding information from them.

 

It appears that after they ate the fruit, they were imparted a leap of knowledge that moved them towards understanding good and evil at some new level.

Are you admitting here that they could NOT have understood good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit?

 

How this is helpful that God kept them uninformed?

It suited god's overall plan to keep them uninformed; but we'll get into that later.

 

Perhaps the quality God was looking for was....can't think of the right word.....absolute trust....much like Christ displayed on the last day.

I can't think of any good way of instilling "absolute trust" into someone by lying to that person.  An omniscient god would realize that would never work.

 

So, true to yourself, you remind us of "grace"; but you have failed to look at the "relationship" between god and Adam.  The next phase of this discussion depends upon you doing so.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

End3? You okay, there, buddy?

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

I am asking the questions now; but if you genuinely want to come to understand the truth, you'll ask them for yourself.

 

1.  Does the text say that God withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

2.  Does the text say that God then set them a test which required them to use what He'd withheld from them?

3.  Does the text say that their eyes were opened to the consequences of their actions, only after they ate the fruit?

 

and this, counting as just one...

 

Also, could you please explain to us why you think it isn't helpful to understand how God set the conditions of Adam and Eve's test?

After all, on the day this thread began, you wrote... "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."

This is confusing. Could you please help us out here? 

 

The beginning is in the answers, End3; the rest is up to you.  No more hiding; no more diverting.  It's time to man-up.  You and I have had a lot of good arguments over the years; and there's still a lot of good argument to be had in this thread.  But you can't move any closer to the truth we're all trying to help you see, if you won't open your eyes.

You ain't R-U-N-N-O-F-T again, have you, End3?

 

I think A&E were somewhat like children able to experience trust but not cognizant of weighing good vs evil through ignorance.

Clearly they didn't trust god, given that they disobeyed the one commandment he gave them.  There must have been some doubt about the consequences.

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response.

In your second response to this thread, you said, "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."  Now you're not sure.  I doubt Adam and Eve knew either, since god made a habit of withholding information from them.

 

It appears that after they ate the fruit, they were imparted a leap of knowledge that moved them towards understanding good and evil at some new level.

Are you admitting here that they could NOT have understood good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit?

 

How this is helpful that God kept them uninformed?

It suited god's overall plan to keep them uninformed; but we'll get into that later.

 

Perhaps the quality God was looking for was....can't think of the right word.....absolute trust....much like Christ displayed on the last day.

I can't think of any good way of instilling "absolute trust" into someone by lying to that person.  An omniscient god would realize that would never work.

 

So, true to yourself, you remind us of "grace"; but you have failed to look at the "relationship" between god and Adam.  The next phase of this discussion depends upon you doing so.

 

I still contend they were learning trust but did not have the ability to be discerning. Thinking their lack of discernment made them subject to influence....good or bad. Once they ate the fruit, IMO, they were extended a large level of knowing good and evil. We must ask ourselves if this level is above our own as we know now. I say this because it says they will be like "one of us". Not sure we are at that level of knowledge....just sayin.

 

Let me say, in the presence of God, accepting his direction, would be a different scenario than grace.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Can you demonstrate, from the text, that Adam and Eve were "learning to trust"?

[Guest end3]

Can you demonstrate, from the text, that Adam and Eve were "learning to trust"?

No, but I think even if they had no notion, none, then experience imparts some small amount of knowledge. And I think it safe to say that God would be acting towards good in their lives. Would they then over a period of time come to understand their relationship with God a "trusting" relationship, I'm not sure....but lean towards yes.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

There are two problems with your argument thus far, End3.

 

Firstly, you began this thread by stating that this was a test. Now, you are asserting that this was a lesson, that they were learning. The problem is that it can't simultaneously be both a test and a lesson. The lesson should be thoroughly covered and understood before the test is given, especially if the consequences for failing the test are so grave (pun intended).

 

An omniscient god would understand this, thus your argument presents god as either a less-than-omniscient doofus, at best, or a less-than-all-merciful bully, at worst.

 

The second problem with your position is that, by your own admission, you can't support it with scripture. Not only does this failure destroy any leg your argument hoped to stand on; it also clearly demonstrates that what you believe in isn't the bible, or the god of the bible.

 

Rather, you simply believe what you would like to be true. As a fellow scientist, I don't need to remind you that this is a very shabby approach to reaching valid conclusions.