Putting An End3 To The War Between Good And Evil

[mwc]

     Is there any possible scenario, based on the bible (and all you've been saying about Adam1 and Adam2), you can describe in which Eve (and by extension, Adam) does not eat from the Tree of Knowledge?

 

          mwc

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You talk like his foreknowledge also means we are predestined. Please tell me how his mechanisms have predestined you one way or another. I get where you are saying he makes it such that we have no choice. I'm not sure that's the same as presenting a/the choice.

 

You seem very adamant about this particular....so why don't we please attempt to discuss this part in particular. Also, I'm not trying to be obtuse. It sure might help me to pick this apart MORE slowly that you are used to. Thx.

Simply put, god did NOT offer a choice; which is what I've been saying all along.

 

If god is all-knowing then god must have known what choice Eve would make.  If god knew what choice Eve would make, how could Eve have made any other choice than the one god knew she would make?  If Eve couldn't make any other choice than the one god knew she would make, then Eve couldn't really be making a choice, could she?  If Eve could have made any other choice, then god is not omniscient.  Is god omniscient?

 

And is god "good" based upon what the text actually says?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

End3,

 

You have previously stated that when we just don't know, we have to go by what the text actually says. You are also on record as having described the bible as "pretty much infallible." With these two ideas in mind, I'd like to share a couple of scriptures with you that will help to clarify for you whether or not Eve actually had a legitimate choice in eating the fruit.

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. Romans chapter 8

4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. Ephesians chapter 1

The message these scriptures present is clear. Eve had NO CHOICE but to do the very thing which god already knew she would do. Eve had NO CHOICE but to do the very thing god had already planned for her to do. It was necessary, for god's "mighty plan of salvation" that Eve eat the fruit.

The plan of salvation, or slavation, was god's. It required evil. Without evil, there would not have been anything to "save" us from. Evil, and the consequences of death, hellfire, and eternal damnation, were god's idea. There is simply NO WAY Eve would have willing chosen evil, any more than you or I would. Not putting her in full possession of the facts was simply god's way of tricking us all into believing that she was free to choose. There simply is no such thing as "free will" if an omniscient god has already subjected his creation to his own will, which is what the text plainly states.

When we don't know, we have to go by what the text actually says. You have said so yourself. This is what the text actually says. god is not "good"; he is "evil".

Can you demonstrate otherwise? Using only what the text says, since we really "don't know"? Or should we discuss whether or not the Serpent had the ability to choose?

[Guest end3]

I hear what you are saying Prof. I agree somewhat, but don't think we have the whole story. Have been thinking about how we could have the perception of free will and still be predestined. Thinking it a matter of scale....since we are of physical laws and moral interpretations, we are individuals with seeming free will, but ultimately humanity is predestined for what we are bound by. In other words, we may be predestined to the earth's environment someday, but right now we are choosing to waste or conserve our resources.

 

Again, it appears as God uses or allows evil for our education or predestination, but it on a smaller scale, you are convinced that's evil. I'm going to hold out on faith that it's necessary and that there is ultimately good in the end. Let me know if this doesn't clarify my position. I realize it won't help me "get" what you would like me to see.....I see your point fine, I'm just going to hold out. Thanks for the conversation.

[florduh]

May I throw in a stupid comment? Thanks.

 

It's as if God created a fish and would only be pleased if that fish chose to live on land. Of course God knew a fish would want to swim, but he declared that the wrong choice anyway. He also knew all along that the fish he created would choose to swim because, well, IT'S A GODDAM FISH!!!

[midniterider]

 See, you CAN hold two seemingly contradictory ideas in your head at the same time, without dissonance.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I hear what you are saying Prof. I agree somewhat, but don't think we have the whole story.

 

No, indeed we don't.  We only have what the Bible says.  And it says enough for us to know that God knows evil and does evil.

 

Have been thinking about how we could have the perception of free will and still be predestined.

 

Yes, cruel... isn't it?  

To think or to believe that the decisions you make now are being made by you now, when they were actually made for you by God, long before you existed.  But even if you found out for sure that you don't have free will?  What then?  Will God listen to one of His creations talking back to him, questioning His right to make them as He did?

 

Romans 9 : 19 - 22.

 

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

 

So, if you are predestined by God for hell fire, but you believe that you are saved, you can live your whole life hoping in faith - only to be cast into the flames when you die.

And there's nothing you can do to change His mind.  He made that up before long He created you.  You could be an object of His wrath who wrongly believes that you're an object of his favor... and you won't know until it's too late.  Or, putting it another way... it was already too late for you when God made His mind up to predestine you to eternal agony.  Tough break!

 

 

Thinking it a matter of scale....since we are of physical laws and moral interpretations, we are a individuals with seeming free will, but ultimately humanity is predestined for what we are bound by. In other words, we may be predestined to the earth's environment someday, but right now we are choosing to waste or conserve our resources.

 

Scale is irrelevant to the argument.

Either we truly have free will or we don't.  

 

Again, it appears as God uses or allows evil for our education or predestination, but it on a smaller scale, you are convinced that's evil.

But if you want to talk scale... who was it who corrupted all of creation?  That a big enough example of the scale of God's evil for you?

 

I'm going to hold out on faith that it's necessary and that there is ultimately good in the end.

 

So the End3 does justify the means?    

As long as things turn out right, you're happy?   Not bothered even a little bit that God subjected His own creation to corruption?  Meaning that billions were born to be hell-fodder?  It was necessary for God to cause infirmity, cancer and birth defects?  That's some faith you've got there!

 

Let me know if this doesn't clarify my position. I realize it won't help me "get" what you would like me to see.....I see your point fine, I'm just going to hold out. Thanks for the conversation. 

 

So much for facing up to what the Bible really says!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Again, it appears as God uses or allows evil for our education or predestination, but it on a smaller scale, you are convinced that's evil. I'm going to hold out on faith that it's necessary and that there is ultimately good in the end.

You might want to reconsider this position, End3.  It's not just me who is convinced that it is evil to do evil so that good might eventually result; the bible (which is "pretty much infallible") happens to agree with me.

 

Romans 3 

7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 

8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

At the End3 of the day, my friend, all you have is blind, subjective, emotional, unsupported and unsupportable faith.  You can't even use your "pretty much infallible" text to demonstrate that your god is "good".  You can only believe that your interpretation of the bible's version of the jewish god is trustworthy, despite being a proven liar, manipulator, and evil tyrant.  I'm sad for you.

[Guest end3]

At the End3 of the day, my friend, all you have is blind, subjective, emotional, unsupported and unsupportable faith.  You can't even use your "pretty much infallible" text to demonstrate that your god is "good".  You can only believe that your interpretation of the bible's version of the jewish god is trustworthy, despite being a proven liar, manipulator, and evil tyrant.  I'm sad for you.

Will take my chances on Christ providing me answers for the list you gave here...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

At the End3 of the day, my friend, all you have is blind, subjective, emotional, unsupported and unsupportable faith.  You can't even use your "pretty much infallible" text to demonstrate that your god is "good".  You can only believe that your interpretation of the bible's version of the jewish god is trustworthy, despite being a proven liar, manipulator, and evil tyrant.  I'm sad for you.

Will take my chances on Christ providing me answers for the list you gave here...

 

Like he provided for Adam and Eve?  Are you really so special to him that he would treat you any better than his own First Man?  Just some random guy from Texas?  No, I don't think you are; I doubt you really think so either.  Even if he did give you answers, how could you trust them to be the truth?  Knowing, from the text (which really is all we have to go by), that he is a liar.

[Guest end3]

I given you my thoughts Prof, how about you speculating whether we have free will because I can't tell I am predestined.....I can step in or step out, in, out, in, out.

 

You get my point.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Why would we need to speculate when the bible is so clear on the subject?

[Guest end3]

Why would we need to speculate when the bible is so clear on the subject?

A lot of people blame humanity....and it changes the story if so.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

Why would we need to speculate when the bible is so clear on the subject?

A lot of people blame humanity....and it changes the story if so.

 

Do you believe what you are saying?  Or are you only saying it because you forgot that on 28MAY2016, in post 52 you said this:

 

 

 

Eve experienced before she ate the fruit. Did she know what she was experiencing?, perhaps not. As I have stated before, it then goes to free will. Did God control the snake, does God control us?

Y'all wish to ultimately blame God.

Answer this one question honestly: Could Eve have told the snake no because she wanted to?

Do you believe we blame god because we are rebellious?  Arrogant?  Disobedient sinners?  Do we blame god to justify walking away from him?  Wanting to go our own way?

 

Or, do you think we blame god because according to the text, which is all we have to go by when we really don't know, god is guilty of the following:

1.  He robbed everyone of their right to make free-willed choices before he created anyone, bending everyone's will to His own.

2.  He then set Adam and Eve a 'test' that he set them up to fail at.

3.  He lied to Adam's face about when Adam would die.

4.  He cursed Adam and Eve for disobeying Him, even though He'd predestined them to do this.

5.  He subjected ALL of creation to corruption and death, as a punishment for Adam and Eve's disobedience, even though He was ultimately responsible, not them.

6. Thru the Holy Spirit He lied to the patriarchs, the prophets and the Israelites, every time He asked them to make a choice - having made the choice for them, before creation.

7.  As Jesus he lied to the disciples, to his followers and to everyone he preached to, every time he asked them to make a choice - having made the choice for them, before creation.

8.  After He ascended as Jesus and as the Holy Spirit again, He carried on lying thru Paul, John, Peter and James, every time they wrote about Christians deciding anything.

9.  Having lied from get go God will sit in judgement and find everyone but Himself guilty, even though He decided before creation who He would pardon and who He wouldn't.

10.  Then, having condemned billions before they even existed, He'll finish His plan by burning these patsy's in a furnace of his own design.

 

Whoever finds humanity guilty has achieved nothing more than blaming the victim.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

How about you End3?

[Guest end3]

How about you End3?

You still haven't made your case for humanity being autonomous...i.e. that we don't have free will or that humanity doesn't have a choice regarding behavior.

[bornagainathiest]

Please accept my apologies for posting here End... especially since I'd agreed to quit this thread.

 

However, there might be something about your last message that needs clarification.

 

Did you mean 'autonomous', which means having the power and ability to act freely and make free and independent decisions...?

 

Or did you mean, 'automaton', which means having no free will and no independent power or ability to choose and make decisions...?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

[Guest end3]

Autonomous...the former

[bornagainathiest]

Umm... sorry again End, but there's still a problem.

 

Autonomous means... having free will.

 

But you use an i.e. to explain that autonomous means we don't have free will.

 

If humans have free will, that makes us... autonomous.

 

If humans don't have free will, that makes us... automatons.

 

So you're asking the Prof to make a case for us having free will (being autonomous) or having no free will (being automatons) ...?

[florduh]

Good to hear from you again, end3. I say this of my own free will.

[Guest end3]

Good to hear from you again, end3. I say this of my own free will.

Good to freely come soil the rug in an open exchange.

[Guest end3]

Umm... sorry again End, but there's still a problem.

 

Autonomous means... having free will.

 

But you use an i.e. to explain that autonomous means we don't have free will.

 

If humans have free will, that makes us... autonomous.

 

If humans don't have free will, that makes us... automatons.

 

So you're asking the Prof to make a case for us having free will (being autonomous) or having no free will (being automatons) ...?

Prof has made a reasonable case for predestination, but not in the face of free will. I had proposed scale was the issue, but he seemingly wants to hammer on the predestined notion. I am asking now, for him to explain how he sees that we don't have free will.....because it appears that we do on a certain level.

[bornagainathiest]

Cuts both ways, End.

 

You expect the Prof to explain how he sees that we don't have free will.

 

He'll expect you to make good on your claim that on a certain level, we do.

 

But that's between you and him.

 

As per our standing agreement, I'm gone.

 

Bye!

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

How about you End3?

You still haven't made your case for humanity being autonomous...i.e. that we don't have free will or that humanity doesn't have a choice regarding behavior.

 

Nor did I ever agree to make such a case, that I recall.  I do recall noting that the bible claims we have free will and also that we are predestined; but I left it up to you to reconcile this contradiction.