Putting An End3 To The War Between Good And Evil

[qadeshet]

8 members, 75 guests

 

Know YourSelf

 

Friend End3, do you visit the other Threads? As a valued Member, you are a part of our Internet Family. Cheers!

[Guest end3]

There are two problems with your argument thus far, End3.

 

Firstly, you began this thread by stating that this was a test. Now, you are asserting that this was a lesson, that they were learning. The problem is that it can't simultaneously be both a test and a lesson. The lesson should be thoroughly covered and understood before the test is given, especially if the consequences for failing the test are so grave (pun intended).

 

An omniscient god would understand this, thus your argument presents god as either a less-than-omniscient doofus, at best, or a less-than-all-merciful bully, at worst.

 

The second problem with your position is that, by your own admission, you can't support it with scripture. Not only does this failure destroy any leg your argument hoped to stand on; it also clearly demonstrates that what you believe in isn't the bible, or the god of the bible.

 

Rather, you simply believe what you would like to be true. As a fellow scientist, I don't need to remind you that this is a very shabby approach to reaching valid conclusions.

We only have what we have in the Bible Prof. You keep saying I should garner something by answering these questions myself. Basically, it's not a stretch to say that God would know how damn stubborn humanity was/is. I CAN give you a few verses to support that. With that said, it appears humanity has run the table via stubbornness and God's options. First he gives them Eden...which we are debating the failure of that atm. Secondly, he says paraphrasing, "I will be your leader and you will be my people" in the OT. I see that as, ok, you failed the garden, but if you will adhere to these rules, then we still have a deal, a relationship. But they failed again. Then comes grace. Let me(God, aka Jesus), do the rules and atone, and all you have to do is have faith. And humanity is failing again.

 

What is it that you would like me to see?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

There are two problems with your argument thus far, End3.

 

Firstly, you began this thread by stating that this was a test. Now, you are asserting that this was a lesson, that they were learning. The problem is that it can't simultaneously be both a test and a lesson. The lesson should be thoroughly covered and understood before the test is given, especially if the consequences for failing the test are so grave (pun intended).

 

An omniscient god would understand this, thus your argument presents god as either a less-than-omniscient doofus, at best, or a less-than-all-merciful bully, at worst.

 

The second problem with your position is that, by your own admission, you can't support it with scripture. Not only does this failure destroy any leg your argument hoped to stand on; it also clearly demonstrates that what you believe in isn't the bible, or the god of the bible.

 

Rather, you simply believe what you would like to be true. As a fellow scientist, I don't need to remind you that this is a very shabby approach to reaching valid conclusions.

We only have what we have in the Bible Prof. You keep saying I should garner something by answering these questions myself. Basically, it's not a stretch to say that God would know how damn stubborn humanity was/is. I CAN give you a few verses to support that. With that said, it appears humanity has run the table via stubbornness and God's options. First he gives them Eden...which we are debating the failure of that atm. Secondly, he says paraphrasing, "I will be your leader and you will be my people" in the OT. I see that as, ok, you failed the garden, but if you will adhere to these rules, then we still have a deal, a relationship. But they failed again. Then comes grace. Let me(God, aka Jesus), do the rules and atone, and all you have to do is have faith. And humanity is failing again.

 

What is it that you would like me to see?

 

Here again your argument--and,indeed, your entire outlook on life--is based on the assumption that god intended "good" for Adam and Eve.  Can you demonstrate, from the text, that what god intended was "good"?  As you say, we only have what we have in the bible.

[Guest end3]

 

 

There are two problems with your argument thus far, End3.

 

Firstly, you began this thread by stating that this was a test. Now, you are asserting that this was a lesson, that they were learning. The problem is that it can't simultaneously be both a test and a lesson. The lesson should be thoroughly covered and understood before the test is given, especially if the consequences for failing the test are so grave (pun intended).

 

An omniscient god would understand this, thus your argument presents god as either a less-than-omniscient doofus, at best, or a less-than-all-merciful bully, at worst.

 

The second problem with your position is that, by your own admission, you can't support it with scripture. Not only does this failure destroy any leg your argument hoped to stand on; it also clearly demonstrates that what you believe in isn't the bible, or the god of the bible.

 

Rather, you simply believe what you would like to be true. As a fellow scientist, I don't need to remind you that this is a very shabby approach to reaching valid conclusions.

We only have what we have in the Bible Prof. You keep saying I should garner something by answering these questions myself. Basically, it's not a stretch to say that God would know how damn stubborn humanity was/is. I CAN give you a few verses to support that. With that said, it appears humanity has run the table via stubbornness and God's options. First he gives them Eden...which we are debating the failure of that atm. Secondly, he says paraphrasing, "I will be your leader and you will be my people" in the OT. I see that as, ok, you failed the garden, but if you will adhere to these rules, then we still have a deal, a relationship. But they failed again. Then comes grace. Let me(God, aka Jesus), do the rules and atone, and all you have to do is have faith. And humanity is failing again.

 

What is it that you would like me to see?

 

Here again your argument--and,indeed, your entire outlook on life--is based on the assumption that god intended "good" for Adam and Eve.  Can you demonstrate, from the text, that what god intended was "good"?  As you say, we only have what we have in the bible.

 

Let me see what I can put together this evening. Thx Prof.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Take your time.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

[TheRedneckProfessor]

You still with me, End?

[Guest end3]

You still with me, End?

Yeah, this is the first time I've checked in in awhile. Just haven't felt like participating much. Nothing against you or the conversation...just is. I will get the urge at some point. Please bear with me.

[bornagainathiest]

To my fellow members...

 

Please note that I am not actively participating in this thread.   I have simply posted this message to raise this thread back up to the top of the 'stack'.  After twenty days of inactivity I was worried that it was in danger of being locked by the Mods.  This concludes my input and I now hand the reins back to the Prof, End3, qadeshet et al.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Thanks, BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

How about you, End3?

[bornagainathiest]

To my fellow members...

 

Please note that I am not actively participating in this thread.   I have simply posted this message to raise this thread back up to the top of the 'stack'.  After twenty-three days of inactivity I was worried that it was in danger of being locked by the Mods.  This concludes my input and I now hand the reins back to the Prof, End3, qadeshet et al.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Apparently this thread has come to an End3.

[Guest end3]

where were we...

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

There are two problems with your argument thus far, End3.

 

Firstly, you began this thread by stating that this was a test. Now, you are asserting that this was a lesson, that they were learning. The problem is that it can't simultaneously be both a test and a lesson. The lesson should be thoroughly covered and understood before the test is given, especially if the consequences for failing the test are so grave (pun intended).

 

An omniscient god would understand this, thus your argument presents god as either a less-than-omniscient doofus, at best, or a less-than-all-merciful bully, at worst.

 

The second problem with your position is that, by your own admission, you can't support it with scripture. Not only does this failure destroy any leg your argument hoped to stand on; it also clearly demonstrates that what you believe in isn't the bible, or the god of the bible.

 

Rather, you simply believe what you would like to be true. As a fellow scientist, I don't need to remind you that this is a very shabby approach to reaching valid conclusions.

We only have what we have in the Bible Prof. You keep saying I should garner something by answering these questions myself. Basically, it's not a stretch to say that God would know how damn stubborn humanity was/is. I CAN give you a few verses to support that. With that said, it appears humanity has run the table via stubbornness and God's options. First he gives them Eden...which we are debating the failure of that atm. Secondly, he says paraphrasing, "I will be your leader and you will be my people" in the OT. I see that as, ok, you failed the garden, but if you will adhere to these rules, then we still have a deal, a relationship. But they failed again. Then comes grace. Let me(God, aka Jesus), do the rules and atone, and all you have to do is have faith. And humanity is failing again.

 

What is it that you would like me to see?

 

Here again your argument--and,indeed, your entire outlook on life--is based on the assumption that god intended "good" for Adam and Eve.  Can you demonstrate, from the text, that what god intended was "good"?  As you say, we only have what we have in the bible.

 

Let me see what I can put together this evening. Thx Prof.

 

If God said the creation was good, then wouldn't have the intention of God for it to be good?

 

Let me edit this since I think you are probably asking something different...i.e. that the God's intentions for A&E were different than the creation.

 

One would gather that we would have to separate A&E from the creation to demonstrate different intentions...

 

Then I think it would logically follow the idea of sanctification...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If god said Adam would die on the day he ate the fruit, and Adam lived for another 900 years, then there's no reason to assume that by "good", god actually meant "good". We've already demonstrated that god is a liar.

 

We also need not separate Adam and Eve from the rest of creation in order to differentiate god's intention. It is clear from the outset that god's intention was to unleash evil onto ALL creation, not just the generations of Man.

 

Remember it was god who first killed, not the created, not the serpent. And the extent of god's curse demonstrates the mind of a sadistic sociopath.

 

Yes, sanctification, salvation, redemption: all were part of god's plan. But not because they "fell"; rather because they were pushed. god sold them into sin in order to buy us all as slaves.

 

Declaring his creation as "good", then, seems more like god's attempt to absolve himself of the evil he had already begun to create and unleash.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

I am asking the questions now; but if you genuinely want to come to understand the truth, you'll ask them for yourself.

 

1.  Does the text say that God withheld the ability to weigh the consequences of their actions from Adam and Eve?

2.  Does the text say that God then set them a test which required them to use what He'd withheld from them?

3.  Does the text say that their eyes were opened to the consequences of their actions, only after they ate the fruit?

 

and this, counting as just one...

 

Also, could you please explain to us why you think it isn't helpful to understand how God set the conditions of Adam and Eve's test?

After all, on the day this thread began, you wrote... "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."

This is confusing. Could you please help us out here? 

 

The beginning is in the answers, End3; the rest is up to you.  No more hiding; no more diverting.  It's time to man-up.  You and I have had a lot of good arguments over the years; and there's still a lot of good argument to be had in this thread.  But you can't move any closer to the truth we're all trying to help you see, if you won't open your eyes.

You ain't R-U-N-N-O-F-T again, have you, End3?

 

I think A&E were somewhat like children able to experience trust but not cognizant of weighing good vs evil through ignorance.

Clearly they didn't trust god, given that they disobeyed the one commandment he gave them.  There must have been some doubt about the consequences.

 

Not sure the text actually says the garden was a test but we might infer God was desiring a certain response.

In your second response to this thread, you said, "Let's save ourselves time. The Bible pretty much says this is a test."  Now you're not sure.  I doubt Adam and Eve knew either, since god made a habit of withholding information from them.

 

It appears that after they ate the fruit, they were imparted a leap of knowledge that moved them towards understanding good and evil at some new level.

Are you admitting here that they could NOT have understood good and evil BEFORE they ate the fruit?

 

How this is helpful that God kept them uninformed?

It suited god's overall plan to keep them uninformed; but we'll get into that later.

 

Perhaps the quality God was looking for was....can't think of the right word.....absolute trust....much like Christ displayed on the last day.

I can't think of any good way of instilling "absolute trust" into someone by lying to that person.  An omniscient god would realize that would never work.

 

So, true to yourself, you remind us of "grace"; but you have failed to look at the "relationship" between god and Adam.  The next phase of this discussion depends upon you doing so.

 

Ok, so looking back at our discussion, you said clearly A&E didn't trust God.....I would agree that they didn't and this was part of the plan....Adam 1 and then the better Adam 2, Christ. The doubt maybe brought on by the snake?

 

With regard to the test, God could have tested them without them knowing or participating in the test. I may test many things without training/educating them and them knowing they are being tested.

 

Not admitting that they didn't know any qualities of good and evil. They had experienced good, and then temptation through the snake. What I am proposing by leap of knowledge is just that. If you asked me what good was when I was a young man vs. what I think good is as an older man would be two levels of knowledge......that is what I am suggesting.

 

Was there grace in the garden? I expect so because Adam and Eve probably did not adhere to the Law. And, maybe God "sentenced" them to their own devices...aka human hell before the process of Christ and real hell.

 

Balls in your court my man.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ok, so looking back at our discussion, you said clearly A&E didn't trust God.....I would agree that they didn't and this was part of the plan....Adam 1 and then the better Adam 2, Christ. The doubt maybe brought on by the snake?

 

No.  God was the source of their doubt, not the snake.  Read what the text says, not what your faith tells you it should mean.

With regard to the test, God could have tested them without them knowing or participating in the test. I may test many things without training/educating them and them knowing they are being tested.

 

God didn't need to test anything.  He foreknew what A & E would do and think and feel before he created the universe.
 

Not admitting that they didn't know any qualities of good and evil. They had experienced good, and then temptation through the snake.

 

​No.  They had experienced both good and evil (lies) from God.  If the snake was able to tempt them them, that was because of God's deceit.  Satan was merely harvesting the seed God had sown. 

 

What I am proposing by leap of knowledge is just that.

 

A & E had no knowledge and no power to make a leap of knowledge.  Read what the text says, not what your faith wants it to mean.

 

If you asked me what good was when I was a young man vs. what I think good is as an older man would be two levels of knowledge......that is what I am suggesting.

 

False comparison.

Two levels of knowledge of good and evil are not the same as going from zero knowledge to full knowledge of good and evil.

 

Was there grace in the garden? I expect so because Adam and Eve probably did not adhere to the Law.  And, maybe God "sentenced" them to their own devices...aka human hell before the process of Christ and real hell.

 

 

Balls in your court my man. 

 

Essentially, you are saying that it was OKAY for god to test them without their knowledge or consent; it was OKAY for god to not only expect them to fail, but to actively ensure that they would fail; it was OKAY for god to lie, hide, and deny vital information from them.  It was OKAY because jesus was god's plan all along.  You therefore ADMIT that evil was in god's plan from the very beginning because without evil take place, his plan of killing himself could not be fulfilled.  Yet, in your opinion, this kind of spiritual manipulation was OKAY because jesus.

 

This is yet another case of the End3 justifying the means, isn't it?

[Guest end3]

Ok, so looking back at our discussion, you said clearly A&E didn't trust God.....I would agree that they didn't and this was part of the plan....Adam 1 and then the better Adam 2, Christ. The doubt maybe brought on by the snake?

 

No.  God was the source of their doubt, not the snake.  Read what the text says, not what your faith tells you it should mean.

 

With regard to the test, God could have tested them without them knowing or participating in the test. I may test many things without training/educating them and them knowing they are being tested.

 

God didn't need to test anything.  He foreknew what A & E would do and think and feel before he created the universe.

 

Not admitting that they didn't know any qualities of good and evil. They had experienced good, and then temptation through the snake.

 

​No.  They had experienced both good and evil (lies) from God.  If the snake was able to tempt them them, that was because of God's deceit.  Satan was merely harvesting the seed God had sown. 

 

What I am proposing by leap of knowledge is just that.

 

A & E had no knowledge and no power to make a leap of knowledge.  Read what the text says, not what your faith wants it to mean.

 

If you asked me what good was when I was a young man vs. what I think good is as an older man would be two levels of knowledge......that is what I am suggesting.

 

False comparison.

Two levels of knowledge of good and evil are not the same as going from zero knowledge to full knowledge of good and evil.

 

Was there grace in the garden? I expect so because Adam and Eve probably did not adhere to the Law.  And, maybe God "sentenced" them to their own devices...aka human hell before the process of Christ and real hell.

 

 

Balls in your court my man. 

 

Essentially, you are saying that it was OKAY for god to test them without their knowledge or consent; it was OKAY for god to not only expect them to fail, but to actively ensure that they would fail; it was OKAY for god to lie, hide, and deny vital information from them.  It was OKAY because jesus was god's plan all along.  You therefore ADMIT that evil was in god's plan from the very beginning because without evil take place, his plan of killing himself could not be fulfilled.  Yet, in your opinion, this kind of spiritual manipulation was OKAY because jesus.

 

This is yet another case of the End3 justifying the means, isn't it?

In my humble opinion, I can acknowledge it's all God, but for practical purposes, I think it prudent to allow the manifestations to represent themselves as they do....i.e. each piece of reality has a part in the mechanism. If you're not ok with that, then you will please have to share the reasoning....as it eludes me.

 

To the God foreknew, we can't say for sure what qualities God gave man. He certainly may have foreknown what man would do, but also know it was a necessity that they go through the plan as a function of how they were created.

 

To the leap of knowledge....the text says they ate and then they knew, does it not? The leap to me would have been an unnatural leap imo.....like going instantaneously from 0 to 100 mph. You and I have a idea of a mechanism to do that, but I am saying they went there quickly....I don't know how. Yes my comparison was a bit lax but I agree that they went from what experience they had to I assume total understanding.

 

I'm just throwing plausible ideas that in my mind have merit. If God created humanity with such freedom and power and stubbornness, then He probably also knew that they would have to learn for themselves. Subjection to our own evil we would hope would teach us to act otherwise. It would essentially be my answer to "why does God allow evil". All of this makes me think that the alternative to Christ is much worse than our own devices.

 

Just a thought.....how could you choose if there was never a choice?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

There never WAS a choice; and surely that's the point. There was, and still is, only the illusion of a choice.

 

god set up an impossible "test", which Adam and Eve were guaranteed to fail. Left to their own devices they would have failed. But god went to extraordinary lengths to make absolutely certain that they did fail. All of this so that he could justify hellfire and damnation for the generations to come.

 

You can pretend that god is "good" in light of Jesus. But you can not deny that the need for Jesus arose because god is "evil".

[TheRedneckProfessor]

We have seen, based purely on what the text says (which is ultimately all we have to go by), that god is "evil".  His words are evil because he lies.  His actions are evil because he manipulates.  Even his thoughts are evil, as revealed by his words and actions.  Everything about god is pure, unadulterated malignancy.  

 

Can you demonstrate otherwise?  Using only the text and not your imagination?  Or does your omnipotent god need your interpretation to make him good?

[Guest end3]

There never WAS a choice; and surely that's the point. There was, and still is, only the illusion of a choice.

 

god set up an impossible "test", which Adam and Eve were guaranteed to fail. Left to their own devices they would have failed. But god went to extraordinary lengths to make absolutely certain that they did fail. All of this so that he could justify hellfire and damnation for the generations to come.

 

You can pretend that god is "good" in light of Jesus. But you can not deny that the need for Jesus arose because god is "evil".

No, I believe this is where you are making a leap. We can't say Eve was without the ability to choose.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

There never WAS a choice; and surely that's the point. There was, and still is, only the illusion of a choice.

 

god set up an impossible "test", which Adam and Eve were guaranteed to fail. Left to their own devices they would have failed. But god went to extraordinary lengths to make absolutely certain that they did fail. All of this so that he could justify hellfire and damnation for the generations to come.

 

You can pretend that god is "good" in light of Jesus. But you can not deny that the need for Jesus arose because god is "evil".

No, I believe this is where you are making a leap. We can't say Eve was without the ability to choose.

 

Don't you think it's strange that as soon as you are called upon to demonstrate god's alleged "goodness" using the text, you immediately shift the focus onto Eve's capacity for choice?  We've already had this discussion.  We know Eve had the ability to choose.  She just wasn't given a legitimate choice to make.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

In my humble opinion, I can acknowledge it's all God, but for practical purposes, I think it prudent to allow the manifestations to represent themselves as they do....i.e. each piece of reality has a part in the mechanism. If you're not ok with that, then you will please have to share the reasoning....as it eludes me.

To the God foreknew, we can't say for sure what qualities God gave man.

 

How much we know is irrelevant to the point that God foreknew everything about Eden, Adam, Eve, the serpent and what each of them would do.

I repeat, what we know doesn't change what God must have have foreknown.

 

He certainly may have foreknown what man would do, but also know it was a necessity that they go through the plan as a function of how they were created.

 

False.

God MUST have foreknown everything.  Otherwise he wouldn't be God.  He'd be some lesser deity who had limited foreknowledge of future events.  Trying to excuse God of responsibility by making him a lesser God is un-Biblical and an anti-Christian heresy.

 

Also, if it was necessary for them to go thru with his plan, how could they have had a free choice?  Nobody has a free choice if their decisions are foreknown and they MUST do what has been ordained for them before they were created.

To the leap of knowledge....the text says they ate and then they knew, does it not? The leap to me would have been an unnatural leap imo.....like going instantaneously from 0 to 100 mph. You and I have a idea of a mechanism to do that, but I am saying they went there quickly....I don't know how. Yes my comparison was a bit lax but I agree that they went from what experience they had to I assume total understanding.

 

​The experience they had was useless to them because before they they ate they had no way of comprehending good or evil.  This is what the text says.  So God could have made the garden totally evil and it would have meant NOTHING to them.   

I'm just throwing plausible ideas that in my mind have merit. If God created humanity with such freedom and power and stubbornness, then He probably also knew that they would have to learn for themselves.

 

He foreknew everything.  There's no 'probably' about it.  God cannot be excused by making him unaware of future events.  He foreknows all events and all decisions.  The ultimate responsibility is his and his alone.

 

Subjection to our own evil we would hope would teach us to act otherwise. It would essentially be my answer to "why does God allow evil". All of this makes me think that the alternative to Christ is much worse than our own devices.

Just a thought.....how could you choose if there was never a choice? 

 

Exactly!  

If God foreknew what you would decide and made sure that you decided the way he wanted - where is your free will?  

God's complete foreknowledge and power to predetermine what you will decide (so that you follow his plan) robs you of your free choice.

[Guest end3]

You talk like his foreknowledge also means we are predestined. Please tell me how his mechanisms have predestined you one way or another. I get where you are saying he makes it such that we have no choice. I'm not sure that's the same as presenting a/the choice.

 

You seem very adamant about this particular....so why don't we please attempt to discuss this part in particular. Also, I'm not trying to be obtuse. It sure might help me to pick this apart MORE slowly that you are used to. Thx.