Next Pet Peeve:

[Asimov]

<snip>

 

I see a lot of irrelevance in this post.

 

I blame society, mostly, for making race such a taboo and such a big deal that any hint of a remark not pre-authorized by the common culture earns one the usually undying stigma of "racist".

 

I thought you were gonna blame the jews....fucking anti-semitic....

 

I think it's interesting how people will go to any lengths to brand other people as racist, yet will not admit that they themselves are.

 

For instance:

 

"I am tired of whites going "it's not my fault I'm white and I get all of this stuff because of it, why don't you work for a living and get off your ass, I can't be held responsible, I didn't take this stuff it was just given to me.""

[jrmarlin]

I think it's interesting how people will go to any lengths to brand other people as racist, yet will not admit that they themselves are.

Agreed and I have noticed a preponderence of these people are Fundamentalist Xians. They will claim all day they're not like those "other" Xians - the ones who are racist - yet, they will make remarks that just reek of racism and disdain.

 

Hypocisy I guess has multiple heads.

[Lycorth]

I thought you were gonna blame the jews....fucking anti-semitic....

 

It's not just the Jews, it's the ZIONIST OCCUPATION GOVERNMENT!!!!!!! AAHHHHH!!!!!11111111

 

I think it's interesting how people will go to any lengths to brand other people as racist, yet will not admit that they themselves are.

 

For instance:

 

"I am tired of whites going "it's not my fault I'm white and I get all of this stuff because of it, why don't you work for a living and get off your ass, I can't be held responsible, I didn't take this stuff it was just given to me.""

[/b]

 

Well-said. This thread is about hypocrisy, and we're sure seeing a lot of it.

 

Actually, it's more like "it's not my fault I'm white and I have to work just as hard as anyone else, why don't you work for a living and get off your ass, I can't be held responsible, I didn't take this stuff, I earned it."

 

Got it?

 

My family only came over here in the beginning of the 20th Century. I cannot be held responsible for the actions of others, and refuse to be. The days of slavery are over - end of discussion. No one's responsible for shit that dead people did to dead people. Anyone who think anyone owes anyone anything for things no living person did today ought to see a professional and get some help.

 

Seriously, how can a person ethically justify theft, which is precisely what "reparations" are? It's theft, plain and simple. Bullshit like that just encourages racism to continue, and until people learn that truly ending the problems of racial strife in a progressive society means not making victims out of people who never were and trying to tell people who never oppressed anyone that they are to blame.

 

Oh well, like I've always said - no matter how stupid the flag, there'll always be someone to wave it

[jrmarlin]

I thought you were gonna blame the jews....fucking anti-semitic....

 

It's not just the Jews, it's the ZIONIST OCCUPATION GOVERNMENT!!!!!!! AAHHHHH!!!!!11111111

 

I think it's interesting how people will go to any lengths to brand other people as racist, yet will not admit that they themselves are.

 

For instance:

 

"I am tired of whites going "it's not my fault I'm white and I get all of this stuff because of it, why don't you work for a living and get off your ass, I can't be held responsible, I didn't take this stuff it was just given to me.""

[/b]

 

Well-said. This thread is about hypocrisy, and we're sure seeing a lot of it.

 

Actually, it's more like "it's not my fault I'm white and I have to work just as hard as anyone else, why don't you work for a living and get off your ass, I can't be held responsible, I didn't take this stuff, I earned it."

 

Got it?

 

My family only came over here in the beginning of the 20th Century. I cannot be held responsible for the actions of others, and refuse to be. The days of slavery are over - end of discussion. No one's responsible for shit that dead people did to dead people. Anyone who think anyone owes anyone anything for things no living person did today ought to see a professional and get some help.

 

Seriously, how can a person ethically justify theft, which is precisely what "reparations" are? It's theft, plain and simple. Bullshit like that just encourages racism to continue, and until people learn that truly ending the problems of racial strife in a progressive society means not making victims out of people who never were and trying to tell people who never oppressed anyone that they are to blame.

 

Oh well, like I've always said - no matter how stupid the flag, there'll always be someone to wave it

Same with my family.... Ellis Island. Not here during the Revelution, the Civil War... Just barely made it here for the Depression (lucky huh?)

 

In fact, I'm a WOP and I'm fucking proud of it. IF you don't like WOPs - FUCK YOU.

 

But I will tell you this, WOPs were liked any more than any other newbie on the block when my people came over...

 

"When Cameron was in Egypt Land.... Let my Cameron Go...."

[Luck Mermaid]

Well, you know you're welcome to your own opinions, just like I am to mine. I really felt a lot of hostility in your posts, and I'm trying not to react to it and play the game of hostility, although you've all seen me play it (I'm terrible, it used to be really easy to bait me with the stuffy ou're doing now). What I'm hearing from your posts is that there is stuff YOU don't want to hear anymore, just as there's stuff i'm tired of hearing. You said some of it in your earlier posts, and maybe there's somthing you wanted to add or something else you hadn't added before.

Actually, it's more like "it's not my fault I'm white and I have to work just as hard as anyone else, why don't you work for a living and get off your ass, I can't be held responsible, I didn't take this stuff, I earned it."

[Lycorth]

I really felt a lot of hostility in your posts, and I'm trying not to react to it and play the game of hostility, although you've all seen me play it.

 

I have not seen you play any "games" nor am trying to play them with you. And you're damn right I'm hostile; you're basically saying all whites are responsible for slavery and owe for it. Only those who owned slaves are responsible for it. Otherwise, should we posit that all blacks are guilty of gang violence because a part of their people commit it? At least that's actually occuring in the modern age.

 

If you don't want hostility, don't go blaming a whole race for things no living member of their number ever did. Just who in the hell do you think you are?

 

What I'm hearing from your posts is that there is stuff YOU don't want to hear anymore, just as there's stuff i'm tired of hearing.

 

That's right - I don't want to hear a bunch of whiny bullshit anymore. If you don't want to hear that whites aren't guilty for a mistake some of their ancestors made, then abandon the thread, because that's all you'll get from me.

 

Besides, if whites are responsible for slavery, then we are also responsible for ending it. After all, it was white polticians who wrote the laws ending the practice. The door swings both ways. So there.

[Nihil]

Well, damn, I wasn't out to start some race debate, I was just venting about something that annoyed me. I mean, if you're going to be racist/sexist/etc, don't lie to yourself about it. You're a bigot, live with it.

 

But, since y'all brought it up...

 

I remember something my friends Ryan said once: "I've met some very nice black people. And then, I've met some real niggers."

 

But, whether they're niggers, spics, kikes, wops, chinks, gooks, or whatever, I honestly don't give a damn. I'm more worried about the poor getting help than I am any ethnic or racial group. Not all whites are rich, not all minorities are poor.

 

Do blacks exploit white guilt? Yes. Has nothing to do with race, its just human nature. Give an inch, they take a mile. If things were reversed, whites would do the same.

 

A lot of people are working to close the rift between races. And they come from many colors. And a big obstacle to them is another group of people who don't want the wounds healed. And they come in many colors too.

 

 

 

Oh, and Asimov? You're such a duck-fucker.

[jrmarlin]

Jesus, Mother Mary and Joseph... Okay. First off, as I said on the TJ thread that Dave closed for me.... Black slave owners in Africa sold black men/women into slavery to the people here in the "at the time - New World." That is undisputed fact. Second, Abraham Lincoln lost his life freeing slaves. And he was white. There were lots of white folks who aided and abedded black folks who wanted to runaway to the Northern states and be free. Yes, while the door swings both ways -- it was well over 140 years ago. No one alive today owned slaves. I don't believe that the majority of the population in America would condone slavery today. Both black and white Americans need to get past this thing and quit getting so upset about it. What's done is done and there's not a fucking damn thing anyone can do about it now.

 

As for the Klan. Yes, they still exist. Are most people happy about it? Fuck no. I hope those guys and gals fry. Nothing makes me sicker than seeing a baby on one of those talk shows with the little klan outfit on. It makes me sick. So do the Neo-nazis of today. Don't like them either. So if you want to call me a racist -- my only racism is against small-minded, ignorant assholes like the people who gravitate to these hate groups...and I am not (as you know) particularly fond of Xians either....as I see they breed the same mentality as the Nazis and the Klan. The Supremacy movement is bullshit. We are all equal. We all have problems. We all have some kind of financial thing going on... We all have the same worries, concerns.

 

So instead of all of us beating the shit out of each other, perhaps it's time we started to focus our attention on the things that matter... Like:

• preventing special interest groups from mandating what God we have to worship
  
• whether we should or should not allow women to do what they want with their bodies
  
• stop all these ridiculous bans just because some lying sack of shit said a falsehood 10 years ago.
  
• The insane escalation of Health Costs in this country
  
• The fact that poor people can't get healthcare
  
• The fact that Middle Income people can't get healthcare and medicine at a reasonable rate
  
• The fact that oil companies are gauging the fuck out of all of us while they sit back and get fat off our sweat
  
• The fact that our corporations are making the top one percent rich in this country and leaving the workers who paid pensions out to dry in their Golden Years
  
• The fact that all the political parties are completely convoluted with people who are immoral, corrupt, out for the buck and don't give two rats' asses about the people who employ them -- US. You, me and Joe Fucktard down the block
  
• The overwhelming homeless population
  
• The taxes that keep climbing and climbing
  
• The costs of goods and services that keep climbing and climbing
  
• Salaries don't change
  
• Cost of living escalating beyond control
  
• Runaway and missing children completely forgotten
  
• All the child molesters
  
• The hidden agendas, backdoor politics....
  
• Etc. etc. etc....Too numerous to continue.
  

Therefore, I propose we have bigger issues at hand. Let's quit fighting each other and fight together to get shit taken care of here.

 

Why? Because all this bullshit affects EVERYONE -- it does not discriminate. When the people LEAD, the leaders FOLLOW! And honestly, kids, we have been absentee landlords for way too long!

 

How's that for a fucking rant. Happy? But did I get through to you all?

[Dianka]

Damn, what happened in here. It's going to take a lot of club soda to get the bloody brains out of the carpet. Where's the damning evidence that anyone in here is a duplicitous jackal? From here it seems everyone is saying the exact same thing they would have in person.

[Asimov]

Damn, what happened in here. It's going to take a lot of club soda to get the bloody brains out of the carpet. Where's the damning evidence that anyone in here is a duplicitous jackal? From here it seems everyone is saying the exact same thing they would have in person.

 

I'm not racist in that I think any one group of people is superior over another, and I'm very much for individualism (hence why I'm against reparations). However, I do tend to say very racist things to get reactions out of people and to vent. Just like I generalize regarding Christianity, I generalize regarding race sometimes.

 

Hey, I'm not perfect, but I don't hate any particular group of people nor like any particular group of people.

 

That's all I have to say about racism.

 

* preventing special interest groups from mandating what God we have to worship

* whether we should or should not allow women to do what they want with their bodies

* stop all these ridiculous bans just because some lying sack of shit said a falsehood 10 years ago.

* The insane escalation of Health Costs in this country

* The fact that poor people can't get healthcare

* The fact that Middle Income people can't get healthcare and medicine at a reasonable rate

* The fact that oil companies are gauging the fuck out of all of us while they sit back and get fat off our sweat

* The fact that our corporations are making the top one percent rich in this country and leaving the workers who paid pensions out to dry in their Golden Years

* The fact that all the political parties are completely convoluted with people who are immoral, corrupt, out for the buck and don't give two rats' asses about the people who employ them -- US. You, me and Joe Fucktard down the block

* The overwhelming homeless population

* The taxes that keep climbing and climbing

* The costs of goods and services that keep climbing and climbing

* Salaries don't change

* Cost of living escalating beyond control

* Runaway and missing children completely forgotten

* All the child molesters

* The hidden agendas, backdoor politics....

* Etc. etc. etc....Too numerous to continue.

 

So what are we going to do about these things? You act as if these things can go away and we'll live in a utopian society.

[jrmarlin]

So what are we going to do about these things? You act as if these things can go away and we'll live in a utopian society.

Well, it certainly would be a lot better than sitting around bitching about something that happened over a century ago. Would it not? And a lot more productive to work towards something or else we all might as well pack it in and just give up...

[Luck Mermaid]

A lot to say...

 

"Actually, it's more like "it's not my fault I'm white and I have to work just as hard as anyone else, why don't you work for a living and get off your ass, I can't be held responsible, I didn't take this stuff, I earned it."

 

Got it?

 

My family only came over here in the beginning of the 20th Century. I cannot be held responsible for the actions of others, and refuse to be. The days of slavery are over - end of discussion. No one's responsible for shit that dead people did to dead people. Anyone who think anyone owes anyone anything for things no living person did today ought to see a professional and get some help."

 

No. I don't got it. I disagree. I think you're having an attack of 'white-centric narrow-life' flu that will only be cured by you getting older and living more life. Or perhaps will have to be changed in the next life.

 

I didn't say that you personally never earned anything or worked for anything, I said I am tired of hearing whites say 'why should I feel guilty about having all this , I didn't hurt anyone, ... ' I'm not going to repeat what I said because you could read it for yourself. Your entire post is using language to try and put me down, which is not what I did in my post, and you're trying to put me down I suspect because you feel a kind of powerlessness about the issue, like something is being shoved down your throat, like you're violated, and like you're afraid you like it or part of the violation is inside of you.

 

No matter how many times you try to put my point of view down in language or say it's the end, it won't be the end. It will still be there until you face it. You cannot be held responsible but you can make your own choices in this life. You think because I have brown skin that I am not faced with these choices either, whether to buy food or accept situations that (temporarily) cater to me getting a nicer slice of pie than others in the ever-shrinking slice. Often I take it but I try to refuse, I try to create different alternatives. Like buying (even though I think land-ownership is sort of toxic) land to resist it's destruction and trying not to buy stuff made in sweatshops and trying to buy less and trying to create a society where there is no need for cops. I have had a middle-upper class priviledge in my upbringing, getting things I took for granted while thinking I was so poor. I can have a goal of not going to some tropical location to lounge around, leaving dollar-crumbs for locals to toady to me and scrap over wasting precious fuel to get there by plane, and focus on cleaning the waters in my own area so I can swim in them instead. That will take some money away from the hopelessness in the tropics but it will eventually create revolution. I am responsible for my part. Oftentimes I don't do it but I have a goal in mind. You are not alone in making these choices and if I can do them I'm sure yo ucan too if you choose. Or you can choose to sit around and be a waste of space which is ultimately what we are when we don't walk against the escalator, at least we're a waste on a certain level.

 

So, you don't agree, you're upset, fine. Be upset. Be angry. But I would appreciate it if you didn't write an elaborate cloak of insult to seep into my bones with insultand belittleing. I know you're doing this because you are reacting to a perceived threat like someone who snaps back at friend who's snapped at them instead of saying 'hey, why did you just snap at me'? I know I'm also being vague and dodgy and you don't trust me.

 

And why did you all home in on one section you didn't like and not think about what I said about the sharecropping or all of the other stuff I said?????

 

 

"I have not seen you play any "games" nor am trying to play them with you. And you're damn right I'm hostile; you're basically saying all whites are responsible for slavery and owe for it. Only those who owned slaves are responsible for it. Otherwise, should we posit that all blacks are guilty of gang violence because a part of their people commit it? At least that's actually occuring in the modern age."

 

No, that's not what I said. You misunderstood me. I said in our global culture, you aren't naive. You know you get things because you're white. Yes brown people get things because we're brown and individually it can be unfair but on a large scale you know the odds tip in your favor. There's a legacy. Slavery doesn't just 'end'. It echoes, like all pain and torture. You see it in the black crack babies who are deformed for life and you see it in the whites who are victims of violent brown skinned gang crime. There is a culture, a legacy. You get things because of what your ancestors did, just like Christians get things today because of what their ancestors did, even though they want to claim their god is a god only of love and compassion and they have nothing to do with their ancestors in a Christian capacity. Yes gang violence is happening in our age, of all gangs not just brown skinned gangs, and I'd like to remind you that every time you leave your house and buy something the odds are it's being made on the backs of the poor of the brown of the land of the disposessed natives just like it was in your grandfather's time - except now you don't see it because it happens far away from your town.

 

 

 

"Besides, if whites are responsible for slavery, then we are also responsible for ending it. After all, it was white polticians who wrote the laws ending the practice. The door swings both ways. So there."

 

I'm posting this here so that when you realize what you just said, 10 years from now, and it comes back to you in a moment of contemplation, you'll laugh. You're pissed now, but you'll probably laugh later.

 

 

 

Jmarlin, I think that all of the points you listed are things that will be changed individually and ricochet off each other, these issues can be worked out in that frame work and vice versa. I think ti's a big web.

 

Asimov, whaty ou said really made me sick. I know you and others have had a lot of fun watching me go nuts and trying to encourage me to go nuts about anti-semitism and in part it's my own learning experience. But it's not funny. It's really disgusting to me. I know some people have things that are disgusting to them but I've let you know long ago that was a very close nerve to me. If you can call my entire post irrelevant, well there isn't much point to us talking. If you intend to do things involving 'holocaust' humor or whatever though, please just agree to ignore my posts and I will extend the same curtesy to you from now on.

[nirrti]

I think when blacks talk about their experiences with racism, white people personalize it thinking blacks are blaming every single caucasian in the U.S. It's just like when whites talk about people who act "ghetto" or the "inner city" and blacks hear that, they believe that means them too. Since those who're acting "ghetto" are often black, then they must be talking about all blacks.

 

The reaction is, "No, I don't do that so why are you talking about me like that?" whereas the objection was made about a group of people who happened to be from that racial group, not all those who are of that ethnicity. When African-Americans voice displeasure about an experience and a white person says "it's not that bad," or "you're just over-reacting," they feel that their perception is being de-valued. Same thing when it's the other way around. So then you have alot of hostility and hurt feelings which make things worse.

 

Every human being has the need to be heard, the need to know that what they say matters to others. If their experience matters, then their whole being matters. If we feel like the other one's not listening, we believe what we say doesn't count to the other person, therefore that other person must not think too much of us anyway. That was what the whole civil rights movement was about, making sure that all people, regardless of race mattered in the eyes of the law and everyone had a chance to be heard. The only way we're going to heal is if we sit down and truly listen to each other.

[Asimov]

Asimov, whaty ou said really made me sick. I know you and others have had a lot of fun watching me go nuts and trying to encourage me to go nuts about anti-semitism and in part it's my own learning experience. But it's not funny. It's really disgusting to me. I know some people have things that are disgusting to them but I've let you know long ago that was a very close nerve to me. If you can call my entire post irrelevant, well there isn't much point to us talking. If you intend to do things involving 'holocaust' humor or whatever though, please just agree to ignore my posts and I will extend the same curtesy to you from now on.

 

I think you're just seeing what you want to see in order to be offended.

 

What I said to Wolfheart was a joke in reference to the recent "jew thread" we had where everyone went apeshit, and Wolfheart was labelled an anti-semitic. I can joke about whatever the fuck I want. I'll joke about; aborting babies, black people, white people, girls, guys, asians, mexicans, chinese, jews, crime, holocaust, sex, rape, pedophilia, incest, and goddamn Slobodan Milosevic if I feel like it.

 

Humour != Hate.

 

I don't care if you don't find it funny, I'm pretty sure Christians don't find jokes about Jesus funny. Look at Thurisaz's sig-line. You think we should all just prance around and laugh and play all day without offending anyone? Tip-toe through life trying not to do anything that would or might or even has the slightest chance of offending anyone? That's a pretty hefty-order, there, especially since your own views regarding white people are heavily diluted with hypocrisy.

 

Your post was irrelevant. How was it irrelevant?

 

Your comments about "white-strangers" feeling your friends grandaughters hair. Bullshit. You go anywhere where someone is exotic and you'll get pawed at. Blonde's in Japan get the same treatment, especially if they have curly hair. White people in predominantly non-white cultures will get the same treatment. Irrelevant, it's not an issue of race, it's an issue of human fascination with the unkown. You turning it into a race issue is stupid, childish, and supports what I said that you'll look for anything to be offended by.

 

Your comments about white people feeling non-whites are unqualified if they get jobs over them...bullshit. I think everyone who gets hired over me is unqualified because I think I'm the man for the job. Obviously. Your comment is irrelevant.

 

Your movie anecdotes...irrelevant.

 

Some people are as you describe, but your generalizations in order to justify your hypocrisy is irrational.

 

I feel in North America that we all just feel so entitled. I think that maybe part of the reason we're in pain that freezes us is because we don't know how to live, we don't know Death, we don't take pride in what we do, we don't have connections to the land we live on, the seasons, our families (I mean extended families), we have it all. And we hae it all at the expense of others in third worlds, etc. At least that's my experience with myself.

 

Irrelevant. You're taking your own spiritual issues and dumping them on everyone else.

 

This is what I was thinking of when I read the word 'a sense of entitlement'. Not blacks in America wanting compensation from the wealthy whites, who get perks in something as simple as applying for affordable housing and getting it based on the color of your skin. You wouldn't choose to do that, but you accept the perks of racism. Beveral Daniel Tatum writes in her book "Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria" (an EXCELLENT book in my opinion and useful to everyone) that racism is like one of those moving floor thing escalators you find in airports. You don't have to walk towards it, it will pull you to it unless you walk the other way at a pace that is greater than that of the escalator.

 

I accept what is given to me, and I never get freebies based on the colour of my skin. You think I'm debt free, middle-class yuppie who only sees as far as the pond he lives in? Well fuck you. I've lived in more shit than you think and I've had shit happen that you have no idea about. You simply assume because I'm white and because I say things about racism that offend you that I'm the "white stereotype who shits on people under him".

 

I have seen really disturbing stuff in a movie about the descendants of sharecropping in the rural south - people so poor they can't afford pencils and paper to send their children to school.

 

Too bad for them, life must really suck.

 

 

In essence, your post was fluff. Had nothing to do with the topic at hand, was full of over-generalizations and shows a revelation of your own racism regarding white people.

 

You don't make me sick, you make me laugh. I'm not offended, I feel a satisfied sense of irony when I look at your post accusing everyone else of racism.

 

I see self-righteous spiritual bullshit.

 

I don't owe anyone anything. I dont' bear the burden of guilt, and I'm not giving anyone reparations for whatever shit happened to whoever's gram-paw. I'm entitled to whatever I earn, and so is everyone else.

 

 

 

 

That was what the whole civil rights movement was about, making sure that all people, regardless of race mattered in the eyes of the law and everyone had a chance to be heard. The only way we're going to heal is if we sit down and truly listen to each other.

 

Everyone should definitely have equal opportunities to be heard, but only because we are individuals. Good post, btw.

 

So what are we going to do about these things? You act as if these things can go away and we'll live in a utopian society.

Well, it certainly would be a lot better than sitting around bitching about something that happened over a century ago. Would it not? And a lot more productive to work towards something or else we all might as well pack it in and just give up...

 

 

Just an interesting question which I think could start a new topic somewhere else: Do you think that those who are able have the duty to help those who cannot help themselves?

[Fweethawt]

I think I'm going to walk over to the bathroom - right now - and kick the shit out of the first white person I see.

 

Damn honkies anyway!

[HuaiDan]

Your comments about "white-strangers" feeling your friends grandaughters hair. Bullshit. You go anywhere where someone is exotic and you'll get pawed at. Blonde's in Japan get the same treatment, especially if they have curly hair. White people in predominantly non-white cultures will get the same treatment. Irrelevant, it's not an issue of race, it's an issue of human fascination with the unkown. You turning it into a race issue is stupid, childish, and supports what I said that you'll look for anything to be offended by.

Actually I find it kind of a turn on that the girls here (in China) find my slightly hairy skin exotic. They can't seem to get enough of it! I find their relatively hairless skin exotic by comparison, which often leads to some interesting pawing going on. Dos that make us racists? If so, I don't want to be a non-racist!

[jrmarlin]

So what are we going to do about these things? You act as if these things can go away and we'll live in a utopian society.

Well, it certainly would be a lot better than sitting around bitching about something that happened over a century ago. Would it not? And a lot more productive to work towards something or else we all might as well pack it in and just give up...

Just an interesting question which I think could start a new topic somewhere else: Do you think that those who are able have the duty to help those who cannot help themselves?

In all honesty, it takes everything I have some days to get my own life straight -- much less worry about someone else's right now. You are correct, some of the things on my 'list' were a bit far-reaching and somewhat over ambitious to think that we could actually change them.

 

:::gets soapbox out::::

 

However, this is why I brought those things up instead of heading down the path we were on...

 

I get tired of hearing people constantly carrying that big old cross for racism. All of us, in one way or another, has been victims and perpetrators of discrimination. It is what it is. There is nothing anyone can do to eradicate the world of this fact. If there were really a way, don't you think Bono would have found it by now?

 

For instance, when I had the TJ thread open and Serene starts bitching because Jefferson owned slaves. She seemed to take great pride in posting a document that Jefferson wrote regarding his 19th century beliefs regarding black men and how he believed they were not equal.

 

Here I am talking about Jefferson being a non-Christian - a free mason -- trying to debunk the Christian belief that ALL founding fathers were in their loathesome religion and Serene and Amanda are dissing Jefferson because he did something that was not considered out of line by southern plantation owners in his time period. While there were people then who did not support slavery; they were few and far between. In Jefferson's day, slavery was acceptable especially plantations owners. But even when I told them of the anger he received from other plantations regarding his kind treatment towards his slaves - aka they were more friends and companions moreso than slaves - they scoffed. Scoffed while citing their first amendment right to do so, but mind you if it hadn't been for Jefferson, Washington and other southern founding fathers like Madison, who also owned slaves, they (S and A) would never have that first amendment right to begin with!

 

Furthermore, they claimed I put Thomas Jefferson up on some unrealistic pedestal which is completely FALSE. I am well aware he was a human. All humans are not without error. In all reality, I think Jefferson was a forethinker for his time (because back then, people who doubted the beliefs of the Christians were usually burned at stakes and accused of being witches) and a very positive and proactive statesman and President for this country - not to mention admiring eloquence in which he wrote the Declaration of Independence and other summations clearly defining a need for a division between church and state. He also had penned literally tens of thousands of other writings, observations, but Serene has probably never read anything past his observation on slavery.

 

Of the three-page thread regarding Jefferson's anti-christian beliefs (which was the POINT of the fucking thread to begin with) two people decided it was time to bash Jefferson because he had mother-fucking slaves. So I ended the thread stating exactly what they want everyone to hear to show the others here how fucking idiot they were being - Jefferson was simply an asshole who owned slaves and he doesn't warrant anyone's respect obviously. End point!

 

I get tired of hearing about all the "injustices" when it's about time -- not just black folks and white folks - but everyone needs to get over a lot of the shit in the past and figure out a way to move forward without browbeating shit that happened over 140 years ago. Granted, Civil Rights movement occured in the 60s; however, in every sector, you are going to find racism on BOTH sides of the fence. So when does it end? What generation is going to have the balls to stand up and say, "Fuck this, it's over. No need to continue the delusion that it's not."

 

But instead, some of us feel the insane urge to say things they know are inflamatory and only stand to get people in an uproar. Why? Perhaps they want attention. Perhaps they think they appear to have intelligence. I don't know. But they do so all the while standing under the guise that they're merely, "informing." Yeah, right. I don't believe that any more than I believe the bible isn't some big fairy tale created to keep the masses in line for King James. People who point out racism are usually guilty of constantly perpetrating it themselves.

 

I came on this website to discuss things that required THOUGHT -- not rehash what I can go to my local Walmart to witness firsthand.

 

:::gets off soapbox and puts it away:::::

Christ on a crutch! Well, at any rate, interesting thread suggestion. I may just start it later but have to figure out a decent segway and become a little more alert. Sorry Asimov for ranting your eyes out but now you know why I was trying to change the subject. From the posts exchange between you and Mermaid after I logged off, apparently, I failed.

[Lycorth]

No. I don't got it. I disagree. I think you're having an attack of 'white-centric narrow-life' flu that will only be cured by you getting older and living more life. Or perhaps will have to be changed in the next life.

 

I think you're having an attack of stupidity. Whites today are not to blame for slavery and can't ethically be expected to pay up for it. I asked you to justify this once already and I'll do it again. And at 29 and having passed through both the extreme racist and extreme anti-racist movements, I think I understand the situation perfectly - clearly better than you do.

 

I didn't say that you personally never earned anything or worked for anything, I said I am tired of hearing whites say 'why should I feel guilty about having all this , I didn't hurt anyone, ... ' I'm not going to repeat what I said because you could read it for yourself. Your entire post is using language to try and put me down, which is not what I did in my post, and you're trying to put me down I suspect because you feel a kind of powerlessness about the issue, like something is being shoved down your throat, like you're violated, and like you're afraid you like it or part of the violation is inside of you.

 

Get off the whiny victimization bandwagon. No wonder you condone the notion that whites should feel guilty for things they did not do, nor the vast majority of their ancestors. I wasn't trying to put you down, but now I am - you're an idiot.

 

No matter how many times you try to put my point of view down in language or say it's the end, it won't be the end. It will still be there until you face it. You cannot be held responsible but you can make your own choices in this life. You think because I have brown skin that I am not faced with these choices either, whether to buy food or accept situations that (temporarily) cater to me getting a nicer slice of pie than others in the ever-shrinking slice. Often I take it but I try to refuse, I try to create different alternatives. Like buying (even though I think land-ownership is sort of toxic) land to resist it's destruction and trying not to buy stuff made in sweatshops and trying to buy less and trying to create a society where there is no need for cops. I have had a middle-upper class priviledge in my upbringing, getting things I took for granted while thinking I was so poor. I can have a goal of not going to some tropical location to lounge around, leaving dollar-crumbs for locals to toady to me and scrap over wasting precious fuel to get there by plane, and focus on cleaning the waters in my own area so I can swim in them instead. That will take some money away from the hopelessness in the tropics but it will eventually create revolution. I am responsible for my part. Oftentimes I don't do it but I have a goal in mind. You are not alone in making these choices and if I can do them I'm sure yo ucan too if you choose. Or you can choose to sit around and be a waste of space which is ultimately what we are when we don't walk against the escalator, at least we're a waste on a certain level.

 

The only way to "walk against the escalator" is to stop beating the victimization and entitlement

drum. While you had a middle-class advantage, I don't and never did - but that's not a drum for me to beat, either. And don't say that "You think because I have brown skin that I am not faced with these choices either..." because I never said that. Either quote me accurately or piss off. Where I come from, blacks and whites are both slaving away in Mammon's service, and believe me, no one's whining about the past - the present is enough to shoulder.

 

The only one who has to face anything here is you - face that you're positing an absolutely ridiculous load of shit that no one who lives in the real world will accept.

 

So, you don't agree, you're upset, fine. Be upset. Be angry. But I would appreciate it if you didn't write an elaborate cloak of insult to seep into my bones with insultand belittleing. I know you're doing this because you are reacting to a perceived threat like someone who snaps back at friend who's snapped at them instead of saying 'hey, why did you just snap at me'? I know I'm also being vague and dodgy and you don't trust me.

 

No, I don't trust you, and no, I wasn't trying to belittle you (like I said earlier in this post) but now I am (if you can call it that, which you surely will): Your opinions are irrelevant garbage and you need to pull your head out of your ass and quit playing the victim.

 

And why did you all home in on one section you didn't like and not think about what I said about the sharecropping or all of the other stuff I said?????

 

Because sharecropping is a thing of the past that my family and my ethnic group, as well as the vast majority of my race, had no part in. And why did you skip over where I asked you to justify the ethics of demanding money from people who never oppressed to those who were never oppressed (in terms of slavery)? Pots and kettles.

 

No, that's not what I said. You misunderstood me. I said in our global culture, you aren't naive. You know you get things because you're white. Yes brown people get things because we're brown and individually it can be unfair but on a large scale you know the odds tip in your favor.

 

Bullshit. The odds tip in the favor of those who have government-funded affirmative action and support groups, not those who are culturally trained to hang their heads for things they never even did. Save your tripe for someone who hasn't played this game before.

 

There's a legacy. Slavery doesn't just 'end'. It echoes, like all pain and torture.

 

No it doesn't. It echoes only because people want it too, like Xians who think they are being persecuted by the Romans whenever someone thinks they take their cult too far. No black in this country was a slave on a white plantation and no white in this country ever owned a black slave. That spells over. I choose to live in the present.

 

You see it in the black crack babies who are deformed for life and you see it in the whites who are victims of violent brown skinned gang crime. There is a culture, a legacy. You get things because of what your ancestors did, just like Christians get things today because of what their ancestors did, even though they want to claim their god is a god only of love and compassion and they have nothing to do with their ancestors in a Christian capacity. Yes gang violence is happening in our age, of all gangs not just brown skinned gangs, and I'd like to remind you that every time you leave your house and buy something the odds are it's being made on the backs of the poor of the brown of the land of the disposessed natives just like it was in your grandfather's time - except now you don't see it because it happens far away from your town.

 

Actually, I know full well about the institutions of sweatshops and how so many of the things we buy here are made in them. Since I can't afford nice, expensive clothes that aren't for sure made in a sweatshop, I buy and wear inexpensive things. I hate the fact that much of it comes from such sources, but it's either that or walk around naked. I'd like to remind you that everytime you talk to someone, odds are they may actually know a thing or two, and getting mildly condescending with them is only going to be pointed out - and thrown right back in your face. So save your smooth talk for someone who, again, hasn't played this game before.

 

"Besides, if whites are responsible for slavery, then we are also responsible for ending it. After all, it was white polticians who wrote the laws ending the practice. The door swings both ways. So there."

 

I'm posting this here so that when you realize what you just said, 10 years from now, and it comes back to you in a moment of contemplation, you'll laugh. You're pissed now, but you'll probably laugh later.

 

No, I'll be just as angry about the moronic notion that whites today are responsible for slavery, or somehow carry the blame for it. That's as stupid as a Xian saying humanity carries the blame of Adam and Eve's actions in the Garden and we need to make reparations either by selling our souls to Jesus™ or by burning in Hell forever. Same shit, different shape.

 

I get tired of hearing about all the "injustices" when it's about time -- not just black folks and white folks - but everyone needs to get over a lot of the shit in the past and figure out a way to move forward without browbeating shit that happened over 140 years ago. Granted, Civil Rights movement occured in the 60s; however, in every sector, you are going to find racism on BOTH sides of the fence. So when does it end? What generation is going to have the balls to stand up and say, "Fuck this, it's over. No need to continue the delusion that it's not."

 

Huzzah! A simple summation, right to the point. Well-said!

[jrmarlin]

Huzzah! A simple summation, right to the point. Well-said!

Well, Varokar, the thing is I get tired of hearing the same old frustrating mantra. It's over. Let's move forward. If we're always looking backwards, then no one is going forward. We need to go forward and stop obsessing on things. We obsess on too much shit in this world that does not need our attention while we let other shit fall through the cracks and then we have bigger problems. We just need to stop obsessing over racism. Obsessing over it will not make any personal racism go away. Whoever thinks that is a moron. And the constant pointing it out like a 6 year old tattle tail is only going to keep the problem of the past in the present where it ought not be.

[greasemonkey]

Just to get back to the original heart of the topic...

 

here's a good link of the fundy view of prejudice towards Islam. It's a fairly long forum page, but I thought some of the responses were pretty amusing.

 

I find it ironic how x-ians will talk about horrible things written in the Koran while being utterly oblivious to about a third of their own old testament.

 

I saw a bumper sticker the other day on a car with a shit-load of X-ian stickers. It read:

US MARINES: TRAVEL AGENTS TO ALLAH

 

...so much for the religion of peace, huh?!

[Dianka]

You know you get things because you're white. Yes brown people get things because we're brown and individually it can be unfair but on a large scale you know the odds tip in your favor.

 

That's rich. I'm wondering when I'm going to get my goodie bag for being white. I can't speak for Varokhar, but my ignorance prevents me from seeing how white people have gotten more. What are you basing this on, and when does personal responsibility become a factor in your much too broad generalizations?

[trashy]

I have an interesting prejudice test for us caucasian-types. The next time you are referring to someone who happens to be non-caucasian try to avoid any reference to their race. For example:

 

"Hey, did you see what Roy did yesterday?"

 

"Roy? Who's that?"

 

"The guy that lives like three doors down from us."

 

"What does he look like."

 

"Tall, curly hair."

 

"The black dude?"

 

I personally consider it either lazy or possibly prejudicial to jump to a person's race too quickly when describing them. Try it for yourself! It's not as easy as you might think.

[Clearview]

Hmm... That makes it sound as though there is a "wrongness" about a person's race. I think that's sad, really. Are we supposed to pretend that we are all the same? We're not.

[trashy]

Hmm... That makes it sound as though there is a "wrongness" about a person's race. I think that's sad, really. Are we supposed to pretend that we are all the same? We're not.

 

no, not at all - but if I am describing a fellow caucasian I NEVER say "you know, the white dude".....in other words it is typical to use race to differentiate as long as it's not my own race, and I just find it interesting......I know that if I were truly color blind I wouldn't do that.

[Lycorth]

Well, Varokar, the thing is I get tired of hearing the same old frustrating mantra. It's over. Let's move forward. If we're always looking backwards, then no one is going forward. We need to go forward and stop obsessing on things. We obsess on too much shit in this world that does not need our attention while we let other shit fall through the cracks and then we have bigger problems. We just need to stop obsessing over racism. Obsessing over it will not make any personal racism go away. Whoever thinks that is a moron. And the constant pointing it out like a 6 year old tattle tail is only going to keep the problem of the past in the present where it ought not be.

 

Yes - the only way I ever got over my issues with racism is to just face that I'm living in the present and drop the racial crusade. It's just so much easier that way, and allows me to just live and let live, and appreciate or despise fellow human beings on an individual level, based on their actions and not their skin color or even the history of their race. People who keep beating the drum need to shut up and wake up.

 

You know you get things because you're white. Yes brown people get things because we're brown and individually it can be unfair but on a large scale you know the odds tip in your favor.

 

That's rich. I'm wondering when I'm going to get my goodie bag for being white. I can't speak for Varokhar, but my ignorance prevents me from seeing how white people have gotten more. What are you basing this on, and when does personal responsibility become a factor in your much too broad generalizations?

 

I can tell you what she's basing it on - far-left bullshit and propaganda. While the mainstream right wing in America has kept away from the race-baiting issue (only the far-right wingnuts go for that), the mainstream left still practices it. Did you hear about Hillary Dillary Clinton's remarks during MLK's widow's funeral about the Republicans running the Senate (or Congress, I can't remember which) like a plantation? That's typical left-wing behavior, always play the race card and stir shit up, no matter how little evidence there is to back up the bullshit. I'm neither left nor right anymore and have given up on politics, but when I was a conservative, I was very much anti-racist, and used to gloat over leftist race-baiting. Not that there aren't racist conservatives - there are loads of them. But LuckMermaid gets this shit from her political and cultural leaders; it's all too familar to me, and springs from the same slimy source. Personal responsibility means nothing to the race-baitors on either side, and their followers get sucked right along with it.