Spare the Rod, Spare the Child

[Amethyst]

At the moment, I'm working on over-coming the grief of not having a supportive family. I'm thinking of starting a women's group to discuss important life stuff. I look to friends now that I'm not as afraid of people.

 

That women's group sounds like a great idea.

[Casey]

Seabiscuit and Casey .. Just reading your posts has had a very deep impact on me. All through them I try to imagine what it must have been like and consistently come up blank. There really is no way to imagine...

 

In my case I can't imagine what it must have been like for Seabiscuit to have to go home from school everyday never knowing whether she would "be in for it" or not. I only experienced this sort of thing oh three or four times, whereas she experienced it far more often and worse still, from her own parents. When I consider her experiences, I am, I must say, rather humbled.

 

Most kids at the school I went to went home in the holidays to more or less loving parents and so got a break from the hammering. It could have been that some of them may have been physically punished at home as well, but I don't recall anyone speaking of this and if it were true, it's almost certain that what happened to them at home was nothing like what they could be subjected to at school.

 

I was very rarely physically punished at home. The worst thing about going home was that my mother and father, if you like, had only had one quarrel in their entire married life. That had started the day they were married and had gone on ever afterwards. I tell you, you could have chained a dog and a cat together and they would have got on swimmingly compared to my mother and father.

 

Now I, never having been a parent, perhaps have no place saying this, but for what it's worth I believe there ought to be two parents and they should at all times strive to present their kid(s) with a united front.. As Trades Unionists used to say, "One out, all out!" It's a bit like the Army, good Officers and NonComs don't argue in front of their men; that leads to uncertainty, a lack of confidence in the leadership, and it's bad for discipline. Even if they have to go someplace quiet and settle their differences with their fists, that is still better than arguing in front of their men. I know children are not soldiers, but there are, I believe, parallels between raising a family and Regimental life in a well-run outfit.

 

Given a united front, any responsible method of parental discipline is very likely to truly work, without it, nothing will work. I should add here that I don't consider the methods contained in Lessin's and Dobson's books to be responsible methods; I should think a better description would be reprehensible. I might add, any method of parental discipline is not necessarily a responsible method simply because it happens to be legal.

 

To continue, because I could seemingly never break into the ever-present dust-up between my parents I withdrew into a world of my own. I did that at school too and because of it, my schoolwork suffered. I could only do well at subjects I personally liked or had some interest in. Even with these, I tended to do only just enough to stay somewhere in the middle of the pack and thus not be noticed. (The Gray Man Trick in a different guise, I suppose).

 

And throughout I have wondered about forgiveness - how you find it, how you heal and move on?

 

Well, most christians to whom I spoke about what happened to me told me I first had to unconditionally forgive my abusers; that was the only way I would get any peace. With all due respect I'd like to state that that is absolute bunkum. No abuser in my opinion is entitled as of right to forgiveness from those who he or she has abused, although they may certainly ask for it, preferably only after they have fully understood the damage they have done and, if appropriate, served out whatever imprisonment the State may care to inflict upon them. If under these circumstances they ask for and are granted forgiveness, well enough. If not, well then they should have thought of that before they did what they did, shouldn't they?

 

Ironically I found the hardest thing to do as far as forgiveness went, was to forgive myself. Although I of course cannot speak for others, I shouldn't be surprised if many another person's experience was like mine in that particular. Y'see a core component of the "spankings" or ritualised beatings Lessin and others prescribe in their methods is guilt. The child is made to feel that however humiliating and cruel the punishment was, they deserved it. In addition, in my case I also felt guilty about what happened to another kid as a result of my actions.

 

While the adult survivor still feels this guilt, they are still victims. It is like being in a deep hole, and unwittingly using the guilt you feel just as you would use a shovel to dig the hole deeper. Once you get rid of the guilt, that at least gets you out of the hole and back on the road, so to speak. The road may well be long and hard, but at least you are upon it, and from there you just have to put one foot in front of the other. If you need a walking stick, you can forge a good one out of equal parts of guts and a sense of humour, and once you have forged it, never let it out of your sight..

 

And you know what? You just might live to see or hear about something like this happening to one of your former abusers (This is a true story a neighbour of mine told me by the way). My neighbour, like myself, went to a tough catholic boarding school where harsh ritualised discipline was the norm, although he may have escaped the worst of it because he was a good all round footballer and athletic type. My neighbour once went to a reunion and as he put it:

 

As one does I ran into a few old friends, including a quiet little bloke, nice enough feller, never any good at sports or anything like that and not known as a violent man by any means. He was just chatting to a mate or two in between getting quietly boozed-up.

 

Just then an ex staff member wandered over, a real bastard who had specialised in making life hell for anyone he cared to, and back when we were kids, he'd really got stuck into my mate every time he could find any excuse. Either he'd beat him black and blue or he'd threaten to or somewhere in between and I used to wonder how my pal stood it but somehow he did.

 

He was still as arrogant as he'd ever been so he just rushed over and clapped my mate on the shoulder in real "Hail fellow well met!" style, doubtless thinking he was still a wimp and had forgotten it all, or wouldn't do anything if he hadn't.

 

My mate spun around a bit startled like, saw who it was and let fly with the best punch I've ever seen, and I've seen a brawl or two or several. Talk about Popeye gettin' at the spinnach and throwing the ol' Sunday best at Bluto! Christ, Mike Tyson would've been envious! Other fellow just hit the wall and slid down it, absolutely out for the bloody count, again just like in the cartoons.

 

I only wished I'd have done it myself, only I wouldn't have drove him that hard. I couldn't have. I never woulda thought me old mate woulda had it in him to tell you the truth.

 

I'll just say that while neither the law nor christianity condones that kind of behaviour, who am I to criticise a survivor from making the most of what may come their way?

Casey

[Merlinfmct87]

And throughout I have wondered about forgiveness - how you find it, how you heal and move on?

 

Well, most christians to whom I spoke about what happened to me told me I first had to unconditionally forgive my abusers; that was the only way I would get any peace. With all due respect I'd like to state that that is absolute bunkum. No abuser in my opinion is entitled as of right to forgiveness from those who he or she has abused, although they may certainly ask for it, preferably only after they have fully understood the damage they have done and, if appropriate, served out whatever imprisonment the State may care to inflict upon them. If under these circumstances they ask for and are granted forgiveness, well enough. If not, well then they should have thought of that before they did what they did, shouldn't they?

 

Ironically I found the hardest thing to do as far as forgiveness went, was to forgive myself. Although I of course cannot speak for others, I shouldn't be surprised if many another person's experience was like mine in that particular. Y'see a core component of the "spankings" or ritualised beatings Lessin and others prescribe in their methods is guilt. The child is made to feel that however humiliating and cruel the punishment was, they deserved it. In addition, in my case I also felt guilty about what happened to another kid as a result of my actions.

 

While the adult survivor still feels this guilt, they are still victims. It is like being in a deep hole, and unwittingly using the guilt you feel just as you would use a shovel to dig the hole deeper. Once you get rid of the guilt, that at least gets you out of the hole and back on the road, so to speak. The road may well be long and hard, but at least you are upon it, and from there you just have to put one foot in front of the other. If you need a walking stick, you can forge a good one out of equal parts of guts and a sense of humour, and once you have forged it, never let it out of your sight..

 

And you know what? You just might live to see or hear about something like this happening to one of your former abusers (This is a true story a neighbour of mine told me by the way). My neighbour, like myself, went to a tough catholic boarding school where harsh ritualised discipline was the norm, although he may have escaped the worst of it because he was a good all round footballer and athletic type. My neighbour once went to a reunion and as he put it:

 

As one does I ran into a few old friends, including a quiet little bloke, nice enough feller, never any good at sports or anything like that and not known as a violent man by any means. He was just chatting to a mate or two in between getting quietly boozed-up.

 

Just then an ex staff member wandered over, a real bastard who had specialised in making life hell for anyone he cared to, and back when we were kids, he'd really got stuck into my mate every time he could find any excuse. Either he'd beat him black and blue or he'd threaten to or somewhere in between and I used to wonder how my pal stood it but somehow he did.

 

He was still as arrogant as he'd ever been so he just rushed over and clapped my mate on the shoulder in real "Hail fellow well met!" style, doubtless thinking he was still a wimp and had forgotten it all, or wouldn't do anything if he hadn't.

 

My mate spun around a bit startled like, saw who it was and let fly with the best punch I've ever seen, and I've seen a brawl or two or several. Talk about Popeye gettin' at the spinnach and throwing the ol' Sunday best at Bluto! Christ, Mike Tyson would've been envious! Other fellow just hit the wall and slid down it, absolutely out for the bloody count, again just like in the cartoons.

 

I only wished I'd have done it myself, only I wouldn't have drove him that hard. I couldn't have. I never woulda thought me old mate woulda had it in him to tell you the truth.

 

I'll just say that while neither the law nor christianity condones that kind of behaviour, who am I to criticise a survivor from making the most of what may come their way?

Casey

 

Fucking brilliant, Casey. I have to underscore, emphasize, and, above all else, echo and second every last word of this.

 

Absolute last word on the subject. Bravo.

 

Merlin

[Amethyst]

Well, most christians to whom I spoke about what happened to me told me I first had to unconditionally forgive my abusers; that was the only way I would get any peace. With all due respect I'd like to state that that is absolute bunkum. No abuser in my opinion is entitled as of right to forgiveness from those who he or she has abused, although they may certainly ask for it, preferably only after they have fully understood the damage they have done and, if appropriate, served out whatever imprisonment the State may care to inflict upon them. If under these circumstances they ask for and are granted forgiveness, well enough. If not, well then they should have thought of that before they did what they did, shouldn't they?

 

Excellent point. The problem I have with Christianity's version of forgiveness is that it is NOT emotionally healthy despite the claims. To force people to say "Okay, I forgive you. I totally forget about what happened, let's sweep it under the rug, and never speak of it again" when they have suffered terrible abuse is essentially forcing them to care about their abuser, or at least not hate them.

 

Christianity forces love. And that's the problem. You can't force people to feel emotions they don't, especially if the person they are supposed to love did horribly awful things to them.

 

It's extremely cruel, IMHO, to try to force an abuse victim to not hate the abuser, especially if the abuser hasn't done or said anything to try to make things right.

 

People, especially abuse victims, should never be told they have to forgive someone. That is, in and of itself, emotional abuse. It demeans the emotions and feelings of the one who suffered the most. To say "well, just pretend this never happened and go on with your life" minimizes what they went through. And that's not right because it's really a form of denial. How do counselors expect people to be healed if they have to deny what they went through? It's so insane.

 

People should not be forced to feel things they cannot, but our culture emphasizes it as a means of recovery, sadly.

[Open_Minded]

Excellent point. The problem I have with Christianity's version of forgiveness is that it is NOT emotionally healthy despite the claims. To force people to say "Okay, I forgive you. I totally forget about what happened, let's sweep it under the rug, and never speak of it again" when they have suffered terrible abuse is essentially forcing them to care about their abuser, or at least not hate them

 

Yes... it is an excellent point. Given the literalist brand of Christianity that most on this board come out of, I should have qualified what I meant when I asked about forgiveness. I am sorry.

 

To me forgiveness means getting to a point Seabiscuit described above:

 

Someone told me a long time ago that you can ask someone for a million dollars. They may very well want to give you the million bucks. However, if they don't have that much money, they can't give you anything. That's how I see my mom and dad's love. They have only one kind. It is the only love they know. It doesn't feel like love to me. Its not what I need from them, but it is all they have. This is why I have little contact with them. Their love can be toxic and I can only take it in small doses.

 

Seabiscuit reached a point in her life where she recognized this in her parents. She accepts them as limited human beings and recognizes their limitations without ill will.

 

In another post Seabiscuit said:

 

I have very little contact with my family now. I don't wish them ill; I just don't find them comfortable to be around. I can't stand them to touch me. And they don't accept me. They ignore the parts of me they don't like and talk about their strange brand of xianity.

 

She recognizes the damage her parents have done. She does not put herself in a position to accept any more harm. But she also accepts that they are human and does not wish them ill.

 

This to me is a healthy forgiveness. I once told a friend who was asking me if I'd gotten to the point of being able to foregive some people who hurt me, "I don't trust them, I don't want to be in the same room with them, and I think they are dangerous to my health and well-being. But, I accept that they are human, that their actions toward me came from their own hurting, their own fractured humaness." To me that that is forgiveness, because there is a "letting go" once someone reaches that point.

 

It does not mean we have to pretend nothing ever happened, or that we have to place ourselves in harms way. We've simply arrived at a point where the person(s) who hurt us no longer have any hold (positive or negative) on us.

 

Hope this didn't muddy up the waters. But you all make valid points ... when forgiveness is interpreted in such a way that trust must be re-established, or that we must "forget" and allow ourselves to be vulnerable to abuse again, then that is a destructive expectation.

[Amethyst]

This to me is a healthy forgiveness. I once told a friend who was asking me if I'd gotten to the point of being able to foregive some people who hurt me, "I don't trust them, I don't want to be in the same room with them, and I think they are dangerous to my health and well-being. But, I accept that they are human, that their actions toward me came from their own hurting, their own fractured humaness." To me that that is forgiveness, because there is a "letting go" once someone reaches that point.

 

It does not mean we have to pretend nothing ever happened, or that we have to place ourselves in harms way. We've simply arrived at a point where the person(s) who hurt us no longer have any hold (positive or negative) on us.

 

Hope this didn't muddy up the waters. But you all make valid points ... when forgiveness is interpreted in such a way that trust must be re-established, or that we must "forget" and allow ourselves to be vulnerable to abuse again, then that is a destructive expectation.

 

See, I don't really consider that forgiveness. More like, moving on. Forgiveness to me is what I was brought up to believe, which is the unhealthy sort.

 

But I see we are in agreement that the type of forgiveness taught in fundamentalist Christianity, and which our society has come to expect from people, is not emotionally healthy.

[Open_Minded]

I've been thinking ... about a little boy I know.

 

He is my great-nephew (the son of my 25 year-old niece). GN (great-nephew) is a beautiful little 30 month old child with huge blue eyes, a ready (and trusting smile) and as impish as they come. He tests his mother (H) all the time.

 

This Easter we were with family, H and GN were both there. And all day long I had the chance to observe GN - he is very entertaining (as are most year and a half year-old children). One instance that stands out in my mind is watching GN sitting on the carpeted living room floor with his sippy cup. At one point he accidently knocked the cup over and a little bit of his water dripped onto the carpet. H asked him to pick up his sippy cup. He did pick it up and then took a drink. After his drink, he set it back down on the carpet and kicked it over with his foot. Then he looked at his mom with those huge, beautiful, teasing blue eyes.

 

Every adult in the room held back a burst of laughter. H went over and picked up the sippy cup, and took it away from GN. He began to throw a fit, and his mother's response was to quietly pick him up and take him to the bedroom to rock him to sleep. And the adults just chuckled.

 

That's it - that's the end of the story. No big drama, no-one telling our niece that she had a "willful" little boy on her hands and that she must teach him the "fear of God". No parent taking a child to the bedroom to pull down his diaper and use a switch or a paddle or a rod. Just a sippy cup accident turned into intentional teasing and a little fit that followed - and in the end a mother rocking a tired child to sleep.

 

It's actually quite a sweet story when you think about it. Someday when GN is older - someone may mention it to him, then again maybe not. Maybe the story will just live on in the mind of the adults as GN grows and tests his parents even more (as all children do). The sweet memory of a little boy testing - and being loved in his testing.

[Amethyst]

That's it - that's the end of the story. No big drama, no-one telling our niece that she had a "willful" little boy on her hands and that she must teach him the "fear of God". No parent taking a child to the bedroom to pull down his diaper and use a switch or a paddle or a rod. Just a sippy cup accident turned into intentional teasing and a little fit that followed - and in the end a mother rocking a tired child to sleep.

 

That's very inspiring, actually. I wish all parents were like this. No yelling at kids telling them they are going straight to hell every time they make a mistake or gain 5 pounds, like my mom did. No hitting, no spanking, no emotional abuse, nothing. Just healthy parent-child relationships.

 

Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and there will probably always be child abuse somewhere on the planet. But by creating awareness about it, hopefully we can at least get people to think before they abuse their children (and abused kids to seek help).

[Guest Emerson]

I never really responded well to strict discipline, in actual reality it just made me rebel worse. I tended to do better when my folks talked with me about it and since now I'm an adult they can't really discipline me, they just tell me the truth and the realities of the world.

 

I never get why parents get upset when a child drops a glass or a cup, it was an accident. Not the end of the world but then again when parents are financially challenged then I understand how the world caves in and they get into shout mode.

[hatepirate]

I had a dad who was always threatening to kick my ass. If I accidentally left a bedroom light on, or a door open, he would force me to "hold it off/shut" for hours. Threats of being sent to either BoysTown, military school, or sometimes even an orphanage, weren't uncommon. Around the age of 8 or 9 I had to start getting wood for our wood furnace. Unfortunately, the firewood was kept about 50 yards out in the woods, and I would be shouted at sometimes late at night to go out in the dark alone and get firewood. 'Twas scary for a kid.

 

And one time (I was around 10 or so), I was setting water out for our dogs in the winter time. I had set out a dish with cool water in it and he shouted at me for not setting out hot water in the subfreezing temperature. I mentioned the Mpemba effect (hot water can freeze faster than cold), as I'd just learned about it a few weeks beforehand, and he flipped out at me. He told me I was making it up and I was a stupid, fat little bastard brat and made me put hot water out.

[Amethyst]

I had a dad who was always threatening to kick my ass. If I accidentally left a bedroom light on, or a door open, he would force me to "hold it off/shut" for hours. Threats of being sent to either BoysTown, military school, or sometimes even an orphanage, weren't uncommon. Around the age of 8 or 9 I had to start getting wood for our wood furnace. Unfortunately, the firewood was kept about 50 yards out in the woods, and I would be shouted at sometimes late at night to go out in the dark alone and get firewood. 'Twas scary for a kid.

 

And one time (I was around 10 or so), I was setting water out for our dogs in the winter time. I had set out a dish with cool water in it and he shouted at me for not setting out hot water in the subfreezing temperature. I mentioned the Mpemba effect (hot water can freeze faster than cold), as I'd just learned about it a few weeks beforehand, and he flipped out at me. He told me I was making it up and I was a stupid, fat little bastard brat and made me put hot water out.

 

I am so sorry to hear that.

 

I can relate. My mother constantly threatened to send me to a "tough love" program simply because I wasn't perfect enough. I was never in trouble in school, never did anything against the law or anything like that. I just wasn't good enough for her.

 

Here is a Washington Post article on such programs.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6012800062.html

[Fweethawt]

I stumbled across this little gem.

 

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

 

Bartlett's says spare the rod is from a Samuel Butler poem, Hudibras:

 

Love is a boy by poets styl'd;

Then spare the rod, and spoil the child.

Just don't ask me what that means...

 

This is from there too:

Many parents claim to spank to keep their kids from lying. Not only does that NOT work, kids who aren't spanked have no need to lie.

 

My daughter Holly was at an overnight New Year's Eve party, beginning of 2003. She was 11. (Still is at this writing.)

 

Two other girls, one homeschooled, one not, were talking with her about methods of punishment at their houses. Holly said she was never grounded, and not spanked. The third girl, friend-of-friend, expressed amazement. "Even if you lie?"

 

"I don't lie to my mom."

 

"But if you don't get spanked, you could lie all the time!"

 

"Why would I?"

 

Holly, at eleven years old, came home and told me about this, and it seemed very clear to her that the other girl lied to avoid spankings, but that the lying itself seems to have become a goal, an ideal.

 

What kind of relationship is that when a child dreams of lying without punishment? Meanwhile, Holly can't conceive of lying.

 

I have yet to find a reason to question the honesty of my own children.

[Open_Minded]

This is from there too:

Many parents claim to spank to keep their kids from lying. Not only does that NOT work, kids who aren't spanked have no need to lie.

 

My daughter Holly was at an overnight New Year's Eve party, beginning of 2003. She was 11. (Still is at this writing.)

 

Two other girls, one homeschooled, one not, were talking with her about methods of punishment at their houses. Holly said she was never grounded, and not spanked. The third girl, friend-of-friend, expressed amazement. "Even if you lie?"

 

"I don't lie to my mom."

 

"But if you don't get spanked, you could lie all the time!"

 

"Why would I?"

 

Holly, at eleven years old, came home and told me about this, and it seemed very clear to her that the other girl lied to avoid spankings, but that the lying itself seems to have become a goal, an ideal.

 

What kind of relationship is that when a child dreams of lying without punishment? Meanwhile, Holly can't conceive of lying.

 

I have yet to find a reason to question the honesty of my own children.

 

That's an excellent point.... Now that my children are moving into adulthood and the worst of the teen years are behind us (except for our last one)... I can see some things from the other side.

 

Our children did lie, but not about the really big things. Our son has told us, since reaching adulthood, about some things he did behind our back. He didn't tell us in shame - because they weren't awful things. He told us in humor, the way we've told our parent's about things we did when we were teens.

 

But, about the really important stuff ... no ... they didn't lie ... even when they knew that they had done something really wrong. What amazed me even more - and still does - is they would come home from school and talk openly about what other kids were doing. I mean - I would never have told my parents which kids were sexually active, or my worries about someone getting pregnant because she wasn't using protection. I wouldn't have told my parents about kids that were doing drugs, etc..

 

But, our kids tell us that kind of stuff. We know what's going on in their lives, in their friends and classmates lives. I can say with complete comfort that none of them drink, smoke, are involved in drugs, or premature sexual behavior... and the reason I can say this is that they DO talk to us. I know how they feel about that kind of stuff - and they know I won't jump down their throats for being honest.

 

They know that their father and I accept that there is a time when alcohol consumption is appropriate. They know that their father and I accept that marriage is not a prerequisit to a sexual relationship - so they know they can talk to us. When our eldest daughter (going on 22) fell in love, she called and asked advice about birth control. I would never had done that with my own mother (and the thing is - my mother would have accepted the legitimacy of the conversation). But, our culture was different back then, too.

 

In addition ... the kids are compassionate individuals. They really do care about other people. They know that life is not about the surface things, but about making a difference. And, I've no doubt that, as adults, they will find ways of making a positive difference in our world.

 

At any rate... from a 20/20 perspective I can honestly say the smartest thing I ever did in parenting was work to keep the doors of communication open. The dumbest things I ever did were when I lost control of my temper and said and did things that caused the kids to "shut down" on me. Then it was twice the work to go back and convince them they could talk to me.

 

I can't imagine what would have happened to our relationship if I'd treated them like animals.

[Casey]

I stumbled across this little gem.

 

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

 

Bartlett's says spare the rod is from a Samuel Butler poem, Hudibras:

 

Love is a boy by poets styl'd;

Then spare the rod, and spoil the child. Just don't ask me what that means...

 

Let me see if I can shed a little light on this for you Fwee. "Hudibras" is indeed a satirical poem by Samuel Butler. It is a satire on Puritanism, although it takes a shot at other sects as well. English still uses the term "Hudibrastic verse" in reference to this particular style of satire. The poem does contain that line, however if one does but read the line in context, one sees that it in no way refers to the discipline of children. To wit:

 

Now if you'll venture, for my sake, 825

To try the toughness of your back,

And suffer (as the rest have done)

The laying of a whipping on,

(And may you prosper in your suit,

As you with equal vigour do't,) 830

I here engage myself to loose ye,

And free your heels from Caperdewsie.

But since our sex's modesty

Will not allow I should be by,

Bring me, on oath, a fair account, 835

And honour too, when you have done't,

And I'll admit you to the place

You claim as due in my good grace.

If matrimony and hanging go

By dest'ny, why not whipping too? 840

What med'cine else can cure the fits

Of lovers when they lose their wits?

Love is a boy by poets stil'd;

Then spare the rod and spoil the child.

A Persian emp'ror whipp'd his grannam 845

The sea, his mother VENUS came on;

And hence some rev'rend men approve

Of rosemary in making love.

As skilful coopers hoop their tubs

With Lydian and with Phrygian dubs, 850

Why may not whipping have as good

A grace, perform'd in time and mood,

With comely movement, and by art,

Raise passion in a lady's heart?

(Emphases mine)

 

Now bearing in mind this is a satire, how could one suppose other than that Butler was accusing Puritans of spicing up their sex lives by the judicious use of a little BDSM? Or would christians have it that such erotica is confined to modern times?

Casey

 

PS

For the sake of any christian who may read this, the full text of the poem may be found here:

 

http://www.exclassics.com/hudibras/hbcnts.htm

[Fweethawt]

From what I could find on it, all explanations pointed to that verse having some sort of sexual connotation. I just couldn't see how since I couldn't find the writing in its entirety.

 

Now that I see the complete work, I'm still lost.

 

I wish them bastards wouldn't talk so funny in their writings.

 

 

Either way, this is just another example of the Christian Borrowing Scheme™ taking place. It seems that they don't care where they get there little tid-bits from in order to reinforce their beliefs.

[diggin]

However, children can be lovable not because they have an inherent value in them. They can only be lovable because God chooses to place a value upon them.

 

Imagine you buy a vase at a yard sale for fifty cents. You let the kids put flowers in it and let it get dusty, whatever. But suddenly you see that vase in a catalog. You check the mark and it matches. Suddenly it is now worth $2000! That vase is only valuable because we place a value upon it.

 

Or imagine as a drug factory is shut down the news broadcaster announces that the street value of the drugs would be in the millions. If they gave me the keys to the factory, do you know what it'd be worth? Not a penny. That's because drugs have no inherent value.

 

People have no inherent value in them. God values them despite this, which is far greater than saying we have some measure of value that God adores.

 

Even though you do not read the Bible literally, I can't imagine these verses to be any clearer on this:

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die -- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Romans 5:6-8,10 ESV)

 

You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to get those verses to say something else.

 

 

[*]That it is wrong to go into someone elses home and tell them that they are wicked, worthless sinners and that they will fry in hell

 

So do I! Another straw man. "How 'bout a little fire, scarecrow?"

 

Imagine if a police officer busted into your house and said, "You're going to jail for a long time."

 

THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. You'd have the right to be angry.

 

But imagine instead if a police officer busted into your house and said, "We just found those 10,000 marajuana plants behind your house; you're going to jail for a long time."

 

NOW THAT MAKES SENSE.

 

 

If I were just to tell you, "You're a wicked, worthless sinner and you will fry in hell," THAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. You'd have the right to be angry.

 

But instead if I told you, "If you've lied, stolen, lusted, hated, coveted, etc. you're a sinner. God's standard is perfection and all sin is against Him. You deserve hell." Now that finally makes some sense. Even if you don't believe the Bible or take it literally, at least I've finally given you a reason for the punishment.

 

 

 

You challenged me to agree with you because my heart knows these things are true. ...

 

One thing that perhaps has not been coming through to you all is I LOVE MY SALVATION! God requires perfection, a perfection that I was not born with.

 

The COOL part is "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV)

 

I am now considered perfect! Though I am far from perfect, God calls me perfect! I am "the righteousness of God."

 

I am pure! I am spotless! I obeyed all of God's Laws! I am considered holy!

 

Not because I am a good person, but because Jesus GAVE me His righteousness.

 

It is overwhelming for me to consider these verses:

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die -- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Romans 5:6-8,10 ESV)

 

Mmmmmm.

 

And now, because I am born again (as Jesus said in John 3:3) I am a new creation (as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:17). Because I am a new creation, I actually begin to desire to do good things. I actually desire to obey God's Law. Jesus is precious. I am growing in holiness.

 

When people like you insult me, though I desire to return hate for hate there is a stronger desire within me that resists my sin and instead blesses you and prays for your health and safety and salvation.

 

Rather than look upon women with lust, I am overcome with a desire to obey God. My verse is, "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace..." (Romans 8:6 NIV) So by God's grace, I have been able to battle lust for four years now. Praise God!

 

When the world stops its bad habits it just transfers sin from one place to another. For example, when they stop smoking they start eating. But when the born-again stop sinning, we truly become righteous!

 

I CANNOT boast in any of this. I join Paul in boasting only in the cross, for it is the power to make a sinner righteous. Only by the cross does someone begin to actually look more and more like perfect Jesus.

 

AND IT IS GOOD.

 

I will never be perfect. And without being born again, I would remain wicked at heart. But because of a foreign righteousness and a transforming power, "those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:30 ESV)

 

 

My side of this discussion is over. ...

 

If I happen to read your replies and you've twisted my words so that I'm saying something I did not intend, I will assume it is because you are not seeking the truth.

 

I am a Christian. I apologize for the attitudes of fellows like Chris. His words quoted above make my blood boil.

 

This is a reply to Chris, even though he's not participating any more. So my apologies for using the language of the Bible to argue with this fellow who in my view makes God look really sick.

 

First, the value of children and people. I believe all people have intrinsic value. It is obvious when talking to folks with Chris' perspective that the only people of value are those who, from his perspective, have faith.

 

I believe the quotes from Romans etc. that Chris cites actually prove that he is wrong... that if Christ died for the ungodly, it is because in his view the ungodly have value.

 

I believe the message of Romans is that God has released all people from the hereditary weakness and death that God himself placed people under at the beginning. The teaching of Romans (not that I'm preaching here to any ex-Christians -- or expecting or even hoping you to buy into it as a matter of personal faith -- I'm just expressing to Chris what I think Romans is saying) -- is that all people were placed under "wrath" or God's judicial anger so that in due time "he can have mercy on all." (Romans 11) The point is not that God is this huge righteous authority, wanting to impress people that he has the power to burn us forever, and wants to put us all "in our place" -- no, Romans is saying that the whole creation is suffering under pain and anguish that God has placed us all under. (Romans 8) And that the goal is to release the entire race into "the glorious liberty of the children of God".

 

Chris, God did not just die for the few who accept him now.

 

He died to release ALL people from hereditary condemnation (Romans 5)

 

While I agree with Solomon that "foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child", which is to say that all of us have blind spots and are in need of teaching principles of love and wisdom -- I also believe that God has given us the childrearing process so we can learn something about how loving he is. He does not say to us, nor would any decent father say to his kids, "You obey me absolutely and bow down to me and fear me or I'll burn you and starve you and eventually kill you and then keep you alive so I can torment you. But if you walk around on your knees, and always say you're sorry when you upset me, I'll feed you.

 

Nor does any intelligent father say to his kids, "If you say to me today that you have faith in me I'll never ever hurt you or punish you again, no matter what you do." No, good fathers have a moral compass, a sense of right and wrong, and they always have a positive view of their kids, and never treat them like they are bad-- only overtaken in a fault from time to time. Good fathers never withhold the necessities of life from their kids, and they never treat their kids unfairly better than other family members or even neighbors, either.

 

What about the Justification thing? The Bible likens it to a robe which is placed upon a Christian at the beginning of their spirtual life. It gives them a standing, but it doesn't actually change what's in their heart. They need to walk a good long time, asking God to change their heart, before their attitudes and actions begin to change. And while I agree with Chris that he is not perfect, :-) nor is his theology or eschatology right -- :-) what I think he is especially missing is the purpose of his walk with God. It is so that he can actually change, not by legalistically following a bunch of rules, or pointing fingers at others in God's name, but doing good as he has opportunity and learning to be a lot more humble, to gain an appreciation of what Jesus called the weighty matters -- judgment, mercy, truth. These things are an inner life within the heart of true Christians, and in the few, the humble, the strong, God is finding the fruit he is looking for. Those whom God is pleased with, who I dare say any decent human being would be happy to be around too, and would feel nourished to know -- those folks are still wearing a robe when in Revelation 19 they stand before God -- only this time that robe is called "the righteousness of saints". Gradually it changed from the Robe of Christ's Righteousness to the Robe of their own Righteousness. Again, not by their actions, but by God's transformation and positive impact over time.

 

Most Christians are not even aware or involved in this process -- they are pursuing a self-righteous course, and believing totally bogus ideas of hell-fire, an angry God who is full of partiality and who plays favorites, etc.

 

My message to Chris would be to re-examine who Jesus was, why he came, what the Bible claims to be God's goal for the human race ... and then to work in harmony with that, instead of presenting such a pitiful concept of God, and then blaming rational people for being angry with him for his arrogance and shortsightedness.

 

I just gave up trying to counsel a "Chris" whose kids are almost grown, and who have come to love a God that is much more loving than the one their dad taught them about. Sadly, this dad rejected his kids, sending one away, effectively disowning the other, and abandoning the moral leadership of the younger ones in order to avoid inducing them to "rebel" too. If we treat our children according to the prevalent "fundie" concept of a harsh judgmental God, the fruitage is not good.

 

God is the savior of all men.

God is a happy God.

God will wipe away all tears from off all faces.

The earth is a great place, with intrinsic value of its own.

The unbelievers of the world today are far closer to the real love of God than any of the "Christian" sects I have observed. Unbelievers teach us that cruelty and violence should be avoided, that people should be accepted, that the earth should be preserved, that no one has the right to lord it over others, that women should not be oppressed by men, that children should be disciplined in love.

 

Even in the recent Da Vinci Code movie, though I certainly don't agree that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife etc., it's amusing to me that we needed hollywood to tell us what the Bible says, that Jesus was a man. And that the Church has secretly oppressed people, murdered people, who do not submit to their "mystery religion" concepts of "Jesus the God-man", "immortal soul", "hell-fire", etc. etc.

 

Oh well, Chris will probably never read this....

 

But for those of you who were angered by him, at least you know now that not every Christian agrees with his perspective!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, God did not just die for the few who accept him now.

 

He died to release ALL people from hereditary condemnation (Romans 5)

 

OOPS!

 

That was a mistake! I don't believe that God came to earth, can die, or did die.!!!

I believe God is in heaven, and that Jesus died.

 

It should read as follows:

Chris, Jesus did not just die for the few who accept him now.

 

He died to release ALL people from hereditary condemnation (Romans 5)

 

Which makes me of no "intrinsic value" to Chris or any other Trinitarian. If my name were Servetus and yours were Calvin, you would burn me at the stake for that....

[SkepticOfBible]

Chris, God did not just die for the few who accept him now.

He died to release ALL people from hereditary condemnation

I see that you are a universalist and have formed a theology despite by ignoring a lot of verses given in the NT.

 

However my question, based on the Old Testament, please explain to me

 

1)What is meant by condemnation

2)What is Jesus saving us from?

 

The unbelievers of the world today are far closer to the real love of God than any of the "Christian" sects I have observed.

 

That is a nice thought, but that's not entirely true. You are forgetting unbelievers also include other religion which also promote violence and intolerance.

 

A fair comment would be to say is that christianity and xtians in particular are no better or no worse than the rest of the world.

[Antlerman]

I just gave up trying to counsel a "Chris" whose kids are almost grown, and who have come to love a God that is much more loving than the one their dad taught them about. Sadly, this dad rejected his kids, sending one away, effectively disowning the other, and abandoning the moral leadership of the younger ones in order to avoid inducing them to "rebel" too. If we treat our children according to the prevalent "fundie" concept of a harsh judgmental God, the fruitage is not good.

 

God is the savior of all men.

God is a happy God.

God will wipe away all tears from off all faces.

The earth is a great place, with intrinsic value of its own.

The unbelievers of the world today are far closer to the real love of God than any of the "Christian" sects I have observed. Unbelievers teach us that cruelty and violence should be avoided, that people should be accepted, that the earth should be preserved, that no one has the right to lord it over others, that women should not be oppressed by men, that children should be disciplined in love.

First of all, thank you for your frankly beautiful words. Though I may differ in particulars, I appreciate the heart of sincerity I hear. The story in your first paragraph above made me feel very sad that these sorts of things should happen within families and in individuals because of these sorts of manipulative and controlling teachings that misguide people to the point of rejecting their own children over them. It is truly sad.

 

It's ironic how your words resonate with me, as I myself have said, "I feel more a Christian now that I'm not one, then when I was one." It's all about the freedom to be true to ourselves. Thanks for this contribution.

[diggin]

Chris, God did not just die for the few who accept him now.

He died to release ALL people from hereditary condemnation

I see that you are a universalist and have formed a theology despite by ignoring a lot of verses given in the NT.

 

However my question, based on the Old Testament, please explain to me

 

1)What is meant by condemnation

2)What is Jesus saving us from?

 

The mainstream Christian teaching on original sin is that each of us was there, and each of us rejected God, so therefore when we find ourselves naturally doing things that are not "right", it's our own fault. In the Arminian view of this, we each need to turn to God, and if we don't it's our fault. God "gave us a chance", and we rejected it.

 

In the Calvinist view, we're all born slaves of sin, and God made it that way. God releases who He wills, and if he doesn't release us it's his will, and he is correct by definition, and who are we to complain? We're worms, and we have no claim on God -- most of us are destiined for eternal hell because God wanted it that way to demonstrate his glory and grace.

 

What I see in the Bible is that God placed one person on trial, knowing they would fail because freedom is part of the moral nature, the intellectual capacity of curiosity and potential autonomy that the creator had in mind. Knowing man would be inclined to "push the envelope", he arranged for the hereditary descent method of creating the human race. He then planned for one human person, outside of mankind's genetic pool, to step forward and serve as a substitute. Having released the first man from the consequences of his decision, he also releases all the people who descended from him. The release has not been accomplished for the entire race yet -- only for a few whom the Bible says God called. When the "due time" comes (1 Timothy 2:4-6) ALL people will be released and will get what Adam had -- human perfection, an ideal environment, a personal trial or test of obedience. At that point, it's up to each individual to choose. But the choice at that point will be a real choice, aided by the practical experience with multiple ways of doing things wrong that each person has had.

 

The unbelievers of the world today are far closer to the real love of God than any of the "Christian" sects I have observed.

 

That is a nice thought, but that's not entirely true. You are forgetting unbelievers also include other religion which also promote violence and intolerance.

 

A fair comment would be to say is that christianity and xtians in particular are no better or no worse than the rest of the world.

 

You are correct. When I said "unbelievers" I meant thinking, educated folks who have opted out of the Christian pool due to the things they can't abide in Christian practice. I painted with too broad a brush. Actually everybody has his weaknesses, and all people have similar foibles.

 

I think that Christianity has contributed much that is positive in the world, and so has Judaism -- more than the other major religions have done. But in the Post-Christian era in western culture there are a lot of folks who have benefitted from the rational and moral impact of Judeo-Christian tradition, but who have abandoned some of its more egregious mistakes.

[Sparrow]

Hi Folks,

 

I know that for some people on this thread will be a little shocked, but I think Chris is a latent homosexual. You know, the self-loathing latent type that goes deep into an abusive religion because they refuse to give into their desires.

 

The point is that in so many cases when men are gay and becaue of one thing or another they can't accept themselves, they usually go extremely into the opposite direction of what they really are.

 

In reality, Chris porabably fantasizes about men just like every other homosexual man, but hates himself for doing so. He then punishes himself and everyone around him for the "wickedness" in his soul. The world is full of guys like Chris.

 

Granted, I may be wrong, but there is a definite pattern between extremely abusive men who justify their lives with religion and extreme self denial in terms of homosexuality.

 

The same happens with women. It's an extremely human trait. Low self-esteem, lack of self acceptance and extreme religious based abuse. More often than not, the statistic shows that people like Chris are gay.

 

Go easy on him, he really just wants ome cute guy to have his way with him.

 

 

Sparrow

[Fweethawt]

Suffer little children

 

US evangelicals are twisting the Bible to say that beating the young is a Christian doctrine

 

Giles Fraser

Thursday June 8, 2006

The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/st...1792771,00.html

 

Pretty much all I remember from my prep school are the beatings: that lonely wait outside the headmaster's study; the cane, the slipper, the table tennis bat. I remember my underpants filled with blood. I remember seething with frustration when they beat my brother. My mother had asked me to look after him. But there was nothing I could do as he was led towards the study in his little tartan dressing gown.

 

That was 30 years ago, but in time measured out by the psyche it was yesterday. Thank God such things are now illegal. But there remain those determined to turn back the clock. "We are told that in England it is a crime to spank children," writes Debbi Pearl from No Greater Joy Ministries, following a row that has erupted over the distribution of their literature in the UK. "Therefore Christians are not able to openly obey God in regard to biblical chastisement. They are in danger of having the state steal their children."

 

The Pearls are evangelical Christians who believe corporal punishment is "doing it God's way". With a mailing list of tens of thousands of parents, the Pearls say that the justification for their approach is in scripture: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes" (Proverbs 13:24).

 

Chastening begins early. "For the under-one-year-old, a little, 10- to 12-inch long, willowy branch (stripped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient," writes Michael Pearl. With older children he advises: "After a short explanation about bad attitudes and the need to love, patiently and calmly apply the rod to his backside. Somehow, after eight or 10 licks, the poison is transformed into gushing love and contentment. The world becomes a beautiful place. A brand-new child emerges. It makes an adult stare at the rod in wonder, trying to see what magic is contained therein."

 

It's incredible to me that books such as this are readily available on Amazon; it is little short of incitement to child abuse. What makes the whole thing doubly sick is that it's done in the name of God. Apparently, the "proper application of the rod is essential to the Christian world-view". Note "essential". Perhaps it shouldn't come as a surprise. For, as evangelicals, the Pearls believe that salvation only comes through punishment and pain. God punishes his Son with crucifixion so that humanity might not have to face the Father's anger. This image of God the father, for whom violence is an expression of tough love, is lodged deep in the evangelical imagination. And it twists a religion of forgiveness and compassion into something dark and cruel.

 

It's terrifying how deep this teaching penetrates into a philosophy of child rearing. Just as divine anger is deemed to be provoked by the original sin of human disobedience, the beating of children is seen as punishment for rebellion. According to Ted Tripp, in his monstrous bestseller Shepherding a Child's Heart, even babies who struggle while having their nappy changed are deemed to be rebellious and need punishment.

 

Last month Lynn Paddock of North Carolina was charged with the murder of her four-year-old son, Sean. She had apparently beaten him with a length of quarter-inch plumbing line - plastic tubing. Like many in her church, Paddock had turned to the Pearls' resources on Biblical parenting. The Pearls say chastisement with plumbing line is "a real attention getter". Sean Paddock's autopsy describes layers of bruises stretching from his bottom to his shoulder.

 

What Jesus said about those who would harm children comes inevitably to mind: "It would be better for them if a millstone was hanged about their neck, and that they were drowned in the depth of the sea."

 

· Dr Giles Fraser is the vicar of Putney giles.fraser@btinternet.com

[Open_Minded]

Jumping Ship - By: Michael Pearl

Author of: To Train Up A Child

 

From Michael's website: No Greater Joy Ministries - addressing his concerns about older children who are "jumping ship".

 

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=86&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=213

 

We are receiving far too many letters from parents who tell us that their older children, 15 to 18 years old, are jumping ship, bailing out, changing sides, looking for the meaning of life on the other side of the tracks. Parents are shocked. They tell us, “I kept them from the TV. We homeschooled and homechurched, were careful to only meet with families of like mind. We taught them the Word of God and protected them from evil influences, but the first chance they got to join the world’s parade, they did so without hesitation.” One woman wrote and told us that she discovered that her two teenage homeschooled boys had been engaging in sodomy since they were young. Another family discovered that every one of their children were engaging in group incest in the first degree. Children everywhere are finding ways to access pornography on the web. One kid was slipping into his neighbor’s house when they were gone. A sixteen-year-old girl ran away and shacked up with a druggie. In two years, she was a drunk and a drug addict with a child and a broken jaw where her shiftless man busted her one for sassing him. When one family discovered that their children were engaged in incest, the mother and father stopped going to church and took up drinking themselves. The whole family went to hell with an “I don’t care” attitude. One of the girls wrote to us to decry their shameful condition. She told how the family had done devotionals every day and did not watch TV. They did all the “right things”, but it just did not take with the kids. She got saved after getting married and having three children, and then became concerned for the rest of her family, especially her lesbian sister.

[Ouroboros]

Thanks OM.

 

It makes completely sense. I think there's a chance we'll see mass exodus in the next generation from the fundamentalist mindset. One can only hope. Because when you restrict kids too much (some restrictions are good), you tend to get an opposite reaction. Like the law of physics says: "to each action, there is an opposite reaction."

[Open_Minded]

Thanks OM.

 

It makes completely sense. I think there's a chance we'll see mass exodus in the next generation from the fundamentalist mindset. One can only hope. Because when you restrict kids too much (some restrictions are good), you tend to get an opposite reaction. Like the law of physics says: "to each action, there is an opposite reaction."

 

Sad thing is... humans seem to go to opposite extremes when they move away from something (especially extremism).

 

Look at his description of what those who "jumped ship" were getting caught up in. Either way - this form of "discipline" is unhealthy and sick.

[KT45]

Firstly I'd like to say that I didn't read any of the above post (10 pages is a bit much) but I want to ask a question.

 

African Americas are deeply engrained with the mentality that you are supposed to beat your children if they do wrong. I grew up thinking it was okay so I still figure that it is. Maybe it's wrong to spank children but I don't know how to deal with some kids. Look at this video for an example

 

watch from 0:25 secs to 1:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl0ptthpvBY...earch=boondocks

 

How should you handle a child who acts like this? Are there any good books on how to raise disobedient children?

 

-EDIT-

 

I might as well add this as well. It basically shows most blacks opinion about "Time Out" which many feel doesn't work.

 

Watch from 2:34 to 3:11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps4NjKZnlcg