Spare the Rod, Spare the Child

[Taphophilia]

Spare the Rod, Spare the Child

How to Earn Your Childs Respect and Love through Gentle and Mindful Parenting

 

I have always thought that it was as important for me to respect my child as it was for my child to respect me.

 

The thing about having children is that you have to give them so much of who you are. If you don't know who you are, or you don't have that much of yourself to begin with, than beating the kids is an easy way out. I can honestly see how spanking the kids and hitting them would get them to do what you want. However, when they are all grown up and I wouldn't be there to smack them, where would they source there strenghth from?

 

Having kids tries every patience, forces you to examine who you are, makes you feel inadiquate as a person, and is the most humbling experience that I have ever had to go through. Unless, you are fairly stable to begin with and have some decent coping skills than a person isn't going to be able handle their own issues and will take it out on their kids because they can.

 

I won't know what kind of parent I am until it's way too late and I only hope I'm not really screwing my kids up that much. I don't feel that I am raising children as much as I am raising people who very different from me. My wish for them is to be as capable and functioning in the world they will live in, despite all the shit that goes on in it, and to be able to find something to laugh about every single day.

 

Taph

[Open_Minded]

OK.. here's the deal. Nominations for the subtitle are numerous - to say the least. The two that stood out are:

 

From Fwee:

Voted for by: White_Raven

 

"Spare the Rod, Spare the Child"

Careful and Cautious Child Rearing

 

From Taph:

Voted for by: Jmarlin and Antlerman

 

Spare The Rod, Spare The Child

Destructive Discipline vs. Constructive Discipline

 

As thread author I'm going to make an executive decision.

 

1. Title of the thread: Spare the Rod, Spare the Child

2. Subtitle of the thread:Destructive Discipline vs. Constructive Discipline

3. Requests to Mods, would it be possible for one of you to:

• Change the title and subtitle of this thread?
  
• Clean all posts related to voting for a new thread title out of the thread. This way people who are reading through the thread will not have to be distracted by maintainence. Thank you
  

 

 

 

 

 

-----------------------

 

Also, thank you to everyone who made nominations and voted. I look forward to watching this thread mature into a place of support and resources for people who have come out of abusive childhoods and parents who are questioning what their "church" teaches about child discipline.

 

In peace:

 

Open_Minded

[Open_Minded]

Hello everyone - the revised and updated thread has been moved. Welcome to its new home in the Colosseum.

 

You know, I wish my 16 year old would read these.

 

She has thrown in my face numerous times what she considers the major complaint that I did to her when she was little.

 

From the tender age of two and a half until she was eight, I forced her (against her will) to take ballet and tap dance lessons.

 

Taph

 

Taph ... I thought of this post when I read the following poem. Thought you might like it.

 

I LOVE YOU ENOUGH - By Audrey Jeanne Roberts

 

I love you enough to say no,

to do the things that are right for you,

not just what makes you feel good for the moment.

I love you enough to meet your needs to be warm,

protected, clothed, fed and cared for, but above all

to be loved unconditionally.

 

I love you enough to have you not like me sometimes.

I want to be your friend, but more importantly,

I want to be a good parent and do what is

right for your life.

 

I love you enough to teach you right from wrong.

To train you to make right choices and help you grow

to become a person of character.

Kind, loving, thankful, diligent, truthful, patient

and self-disciplined.

 

And when my job is done...I hope one day to hear you

say to your own children,

 

I LOVE YOU ENOUGH ....

[Antlerman]

The subject of training animals came up in converstation for me recently and I recall reading in the Shepherding a child's heart book the equating of training an animal to training a disobedient child. As far as I know, and would be interested in hearing from those who actually do train animals, that beating an animal is never done. Police never hit their dogs to show them whose boss. The only thing that does is make the animal fear you, not respect you:

Never hit or beat your dog. This shows a lack of control on your part and your dog will fear, not respect you.

 

(Also see http://www.leerburg.com/corrections.htm under the section "Hitting, Beating or Spanking")

 

 

Yet Dr. James Dobson who has taught so many of America's Evangelical Christians his "wisdom" in child training through hitting has this to say about his relationship with his dog:

I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me 'reason' with Mr. Freud …

 

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt.

And America's Christians take advice from this idiot in hitting their own children??!! It's an ineffective practice with any animal for training, so why should anyone even consider it valid on a human child, for god's sake?

[Taphophilia]

Everything I have ever read by animal training experts say to use positive reinforcement to train your animal.

 

Dr. Dobson's dog was a 12 pound dachshund. The dog was laying by the heater in the bathroom it's favorite place and Dr. Dobson wanted the dog to go to his bed.

 

Why didn't he just pick the dog up and put the dog where he wanted it? If that isn't an example of sick individual, someone who would beat a small dog with a belt, I don't know what is.

 

Yet, people listen to this man about raising children.

 

Taph

[Taphophilia]

Hello everyone - the revised and updated thread has been moved. Welcome to its new home in the Colosseum.

 

You know, I wish my 16 year old would read these.

 

She has thrown in my face numerous times what she considers the major complaint that I did to her when she was little.

 

From the tender age of two and a half until she was eight, I forced her (against her will) to take ballet and tap dance lessons.

 

Taph

 

Taph ... I thought of this post when I read the following poem. Thought you might like it.

 

I LOVE YOU ENOUGH - By Audrey Jeanne Roberts

 

I love you enough to say no,

to do the things that are right for you,

not just what makes you feel good for the moment.

I love you enough to meet your needs to be warm,

protected, clothed, fed and cared for, but above all

to be loved unconditionally.

 

I love you enough to have you not like me sometimes.

I want to be your friend, but more importantly,

I want to be a good parent and do what is

right for your life.

 

I love you enough to teach you right from wrong.

To train you to make right choices and help you grow

to become a person of character.

Kind, loving, thankful, diligent, truthful, patient

and self-disciplined.

 

And when my job is done...I hope one day to hear you

say to your own children,

 

I LOVE YOU ENOUGH ....

 

Thanks OM.

 

The above is my oldest daughter. If she is ever in an abusive relationship, she will not be the one being abused. She does not want children and although it is her choice. Here is the reason why:

 

She will not have children unless she is 100 percent sure her children would not be ugly, flawed, or above all, stupid.

[Open_Minded]

Yet Dr. James Dobson who has taught so many of America's Evangelical Christians his "wisdom" in child training through hitting has this to say about his relationship with his dog:

I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me 'reason' with Mr. Freud …

 

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt.

And America's Christians take advice from this idiot in hitting their own children??!! It's an ineffective practice with any animal for training, so why should anyone even consider it valid on a human child, for god's sake?

 

Antlerman - you make a good point. Not only that - but this brings up something else I've been thinking about throughout the life of this thread.

 

I too have noticed the way these authors refer to "training" children - as if a child is some pet that one must master. I've no experience with fundie thinking - and I really DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO A DISCUSSION OF EVOLUTION here - that is not the purpose of this thread. But, don't the fundies just have a fit over evolution because the end result is that human beings are "just another animal"?

 

See the following:

 

http://fellowshipinhislove.com/3rdreich.html

During the 1930's and 1940's, the " man is just an animal " idea gave rise to incredibly cruel " experiments " done on human beings by Nazi doctors. Their victims, largely Jewish, underwent horrendous tortures, and most were killed. Now it is giving rise to the idea that we should create embryos, specifically for the purpose of killing them,- for their parts! Incredibly, scientists, and their friends in government, are saying that this is ok, and are urging the president to go ahead with this. It's not the fringe groups we need to watch out for. It's the politicians and their teachers.

 

For the purpose of our discussion here - if fundies believe human beings are somehow set apart from the animal kingdom, then how would treating children the way one treats pets make any sense at all?

 

I mean, I've NEVER looked at my children the way I view our pets - EVER. My children are more to me than a pet that I must control - and I believe in evolution. And yet, it is clear from these books and from the likes of Dr. Dobson - that small children are nothing more than animals - that a parent must "train". And this coming from a group of people who would demand in an evolution debate that human beings are not "just another animal".

 

_______________________

 

.... And when my job is done...I hope one day to hear you

say to your own children,

 

I LOVE YOU ENOUGH ....

 

Thanks OM.

 

The above is my oldest daughter. If she is ever in an abusive relationship, she will not be the one being abused. She does not want children and although it is her choice. Here is the reason why:

 

She will not have children unless she is 100 percent sure her children would not be ugly, flawed, or above all, stupid.

 

 

I'm sorry for laughing Taph - but I assure you I'm doing it from the other side.

 

My eldest daughter is now 21, will soon be 22. She has turned into a beautiful, thoughtful, passionate and compassionate young woman. If someone had told me a short 4 years ago that we would have the relationship we have now - I'd have tried really hard to believe them and gone forward in faith - but it would have been faith alone. I can not tell you how many tears I shed over this child - not that she did anything horribly wrong. She didn't. She never got into trouble with drugs, alchohol, pre-mature sexual relationships, etc..

 

The biggest problem she and I had as mother and daughter was her opinionated - "I'm always right and you don't know anything" attitude. It drove me nuts. Her ability to act compassionately towards her younger siblings was nonexistent. Her ability to think about anyone BUT herself was slim to none. She was your typical self-absorbed teenager - and she drove me nuts.

 

And now, she is a 4th year college student - doing her student teaching and she is wonderfully compassionate towards the students that she teaches. She cares about her younger siblings and can actually have a conversation with them without going into, "I have all the answers - and you don't know squat" mode. She is a delight to be around.

 

I don't know if your daughter will ever have children, or not. As you said, that is her choice - and it is wonderful that we live in a culture where she has that choice. But, I can tell you, your daughter will grow up - I promise you, that. Just hang in there. It does get better.

[Amethyst]

She will not have children unless she is 100 percent sure her children would not be ugly, flawed, or above all, stupid.

 

All human beings are flawed in some way. Nobody is perfect. And how exactly does she define "ugly?" Overweight? Well guess what, we're all above the BMI unless you are starving yourself or working out more than an hour daily. And how exactly does she define "stupid?" Not agreeing with her? Well, then she's probably better off not having kids because most kids disagree with their parents on some issues unless they are totally brainwashed.

 

But she is a teenager and may still learn eventually that just because someone isn't perfect, it's no reason to love them any less.

[Seabiscuit]

I remember my mother telling others that spanking a child was like cutting back fruit trees. The tree probably didn't like it, but in the end it grew better after it was cut back.

 

As a child, I felt sub-human or like a pet. I remember spanking jokes from my parents, aunts, and grandmother. Spanking was liken to a supplement you gave to a child for their own good. I remember hearing, "We should spank you first thing in the morning, 'cause your bound to do something wrong."

 

I believe parents hit because its the easiest thing to do. What gets me is when I hear parents say that their children are more loving when they spank/beat them. I've heard my child is happier with us and themselves.

 

Hasn't anyone heard of pretending before? I was very loving towards my parents. I'd get hit if I wasn't. I also think there is a mental component that comes from fear. A sick side that makes one very dependent on the abuser.

 

I hope Dobson's next dog is huge. That way when he gets out his belt for the dog's own good, the dog will just eat him. I'm sorry, I hate this man. He's dangerous.

[Antlerman]

The biggest problem she and I had as mother and daughter was her opinionated - "I'm always right and you don't know anything" attitude. It drove me nuts. Her ability to act compassionately towards her younger siblings was nonexistent. Her ability to think about anyone BUT herself was slim to none. She was your typical self-absorbed teenager - and she drove me nuts.

To make a point of illustration here, if you look at your eldest daughter’s behavior towards the younger siblings, she was following pretty closely to what is spoken about in the psychology of Birth Order (Link). She was the only child receiving all the attention until the younger siblings came along, then the attention shifts from her, so she believes she needs exert and maintain superiority over them. As an adult now, she still carries those habits from her childhood, but she is mostly past it now as she is an independent adult with many sources of affirmation available to her.

 

Now the point is this: A parent can either make the effort to try to understand these sorts of natural things that affect a child's world and their behaviors and work with them in positive, constructive ways; or they can pursue these easy, overly-simplified ideas of ignorant hacks like Dobson and Tripp and take a belt to their child's bare skin because they are misbehaving because of some dark, evil spirit influencing them. Just whip them to get them to stop it, then justify it as Bilbically based.

 

What is all this? It's a culture war. It's a war between those living in a modern society, and those living underneath medieval superstitions and ignorance. Dobson and Tripp belong to the 12th century, not the 21st.

[Seabiscuit]

I live in two homes, one in the mountains of Northern California and the other in Walnut Creek, California. Every weekend I'm driving to or from one house. Its a four and a half hour trip. I've done this now for four years. I've had plenty of time to memorize the road, little towns, and big billboards. Mostly, big full-color, commercials fill those big billboards. Sometimes there are public service announcements talking about the dangers of smoking, mothers needing prenatal care, and how to detach from domestic abuse.

 

For years and years, I thought I was crazy. I had no idea that I was a victim of domestic abuse or maybe its spiritual abuse, or even physical abuse. Regardless of the label, here I am in my car reading ads that heighten my awareness about issues I wasn't thinking about moments prior.

 

I wish I could build a large billboard. It wouldn't be about the dangers of smoking or teen pregnancies. I'd talk about the horrors of legalized child abuse. To the best of my knowledge, it is legal to hit your kids as long as its in the form of discipline.

 

Funny how its ok for a grown man to disrobe his four year old daughter, bend her over, and hit her into emotional oblivion. If I'd come home and said, "Daddy, that man at the grocery store hit me on my bottom over and over again." My father would have had the guy up on charges of child molestation.

 

The problem with my billboard is that people don't want to talk about "spanking." Parents in my world meaning those I've talked to want to retain full rights to raise their kids how they see fit. Can't say I completely blame them. I don't have children. I could never overcome the horror of what happened to me or my siblings. I was so afraid of holding a small child in my arms. Its taken me years to learn how to take care of myself. Today, though, I could see myself falling in love with a child of my own. I wouldn't want well meaning people to tell me what I should do. I would never hit a child--I wouldn't need a law to tell me not to.

 

I wonder if parents would see my billboard and choose to not lovingly beat their kids. I doubt it. If so many people can look at books by Dobson, Trip, or Lesson and not see past their sadistic practices, I doubt if a billboard would make a difference.

 

Maybe I'm measuring success in a limited way. When I first came to this site, I searched for information on corporal punishment. I found one conversation where some folks were defending the right to spank. I almost left. Now, we have a thread a million pages long about the subject. Maybe success is simply getting people to talk about the issue.

 

Maybe if we had more open conversation, more people would come out and share the horrors of growing up with these so called, "loving beatings." Maybe simply talking is a success.

 

Now that I've changed my definition of success, what would I put on a billboard? I'll have to think about that when I drive back down this Sunday morning. Any suggestions?

[Taphophilia]

 

I'm sorry for laughing Taph - but I assure you I'm doing it from the other side.

 

My eldest daughter is now 21, will soon be 22. She has turned into a beautiful, thoughtful, passionate and compassionate young woman. If someone had told me a short 4 years ago that we would have the relationship we have now - I'd have tried really hard to believe them and gone forward in faith - but it would have been faith alone. I can not tell you how many tears I shed over this child - not that she did anything horribly wrong. She didn't. She never got into trouble with drugs, alchohol, pre-mature sexual relationships, etc..

 

The biggest problem she and I had as mother and daughter was her opinionated - "I'm always right and you don't know anything" attitude. It drove me nuts. Her ability to act compassionately towards her younger siblings was nonexistent. Her ability to think about anyone BUT herself was slim to none. She was your typical self-absorbed teenager - and she drove me nuts.

 

And now, she is a 4th year college student - doing her student teaching and she is wonderfully compassionate towards the students that she teaches. She cares about her younger siblings and can actually have a conversation with them without going into, "I have all the answers - and you don't know squat" mode. She is a delight to be around.

 

I don't know if your daughter will ever have children, or not. As you said, that is her choice - and it is wonderful that we live in a culture where she has that choice. But, I can tell you, your daughter will grow up - I promise you, that. Just hang in there. It does get better.

 

Thank you OM.

 

Your oldest daughter sounds a lot like mine. She told her younger siblings that when she was inside of me, she took all the brains and didn't leave enough for them.

 

If someone at her school annoys her (the worst thing possible anyone can do to her is annoy her), she will say, "Why are you talking to me? I don't like you."

 

I had to send her to live with her dad. It was the most heartbreaking thing I have ever had to do.

 

She wasn't going to school and no matter what I did, I couldn't make her go. She told me that school was a waste of her time, that I couldn't make her go, and that all she would have to do was get a GED and she could more than easily pass the test. She said, "Why should I get a high school diploma when I can get a GED and still go to a community college then a four year college?"

 

She wrote me a letter soon after I sent her to live with her dad about how horrible and abusive I was to her. Now that she is with her father and her step mom she is being treated like a kid. Unlike me, her abusive mother, who forced her to do her own laundry and if she didn't do her own laundry, she wouldn't even have had any clean clothes. (I made her do her OWN laundry, not anyone elses.) I forced her to keep the livingroom picked up and to help me make dinner. I forced her to help clean the house every Saturday. (I never asked her to clean the bathrooms or scrub the toilet or mop the floors, I just asked her to vacuum and pick up, but because she was the oldest she could do more than her younger siblings, so I did depend on her to help.)

 

She told me that I should never have put that type of responsibility on a kid without so much as COMPENSATION (she doesn't count a roof over her head and the clothes on her back as compensation) and I'd been making her do this since she was only ten years old. It wasn't fair that just because she was the oldest that I depended on her to help me.

 

Now, she gets treated like a kid (meaning waited on hand and foot), her laundry is washed and put away for her, and she doesn't need to help them make dinner, or clean. Her dad gives her $5 every time she does dishes. (She doesn't even do the dinner dishes. If there is a cup in the sink, she'll wash it then tell her father she did the dishes and he owes her $5.)

 

Her last line to me was:

"I know you think I know everything. I'm not saying that I know everything, but I do know a lot. It's just advice. Good advice. Take it, or leave it."

 

I try to talk to her on the phone, but it's difficult. In every conversation with me she complains, complains, complains, mostly about her sister and how terrible her sister is and how everyone thinks that her sister is so wonderful but they don't know the things she knows about her sister and if they did they wouldn't think her sister is so wonderful because her sister is just a brat.

 

She always writes herself to do lists and has since she could first put pencil to paper. When she was seven I found one of her to do lists. It said:

 

Wake up

Get dressed

Brush hair and teeth

Tease my sister

Eat Breakfast

Get my bookbag

 

When I asked her why she put "tease my sister" on her to do list. She said, "I didn't want to forget to do it.'

[Amethyst]

She wrote me a letter soon after I sent her to live with her dad about how horrible and abusive I was to her. Now that she is with her father and her step mom she is being treated like a kid. Unlike me, her abusive mother, who forced her to do her own laundry and if she didn't do her own laundry, she wouldn't even have had any clean clothes. (I made her do her OWN laundry, not anyone elses.) I forced her to keep the livingroom picked up and to help me make dinner. I forced her to help clean the house every Saturday. (I never asked her to clean the bathrooms or scrub the toilet or mop the floors, I just asked her to vacuum and pick up, but because she was the oldest she could do more than her younger siblings, so I did depend on her to help.)

 

Teaching a child responsibility is not in and of itself abuse. More kids should learn how to be responsible for themselves and not lazy, but unfortunately, this is America.

[Open_Minded]

The problem with my billboard is that people don't want to talk about "spanking." Parents in my world meaning those I've talked to want to retain full rights to raise their kids how they see fit. Can't say I completely blame them. I don't have children. I could never overcome the horror of what happened to me or my siblings. I was so afraid of holding a small child in my arms. Its taken me years to learn how to take care of myself. Today, though, I could see myself falling in love with a child of my own. I wouldn't want well meaning people to tell me what I should do. I would never hit a child--I wouldn't need a law to tell me not to.

 

Seabiscuit, maybe the reason people don't want to talk about "spanking" is because it means different things to different people. Following is an excerpt from another post in this thread.

 

(Chris)

Once I was so mad at my mom, I took her face and pressed my thumb into her eye socket

. It began with a hateful thought and that thought wanted blood! God considers hate to be on the same level as murder! When I read in the OT that I should have been stoned it sent chills down my spine. Still does. If that Law still applies grace is magnified. Why would God save such a wretch like me???

(Open_Minded) See the thing is - that the moment you describe above is NOT NORMAL. This is not something that happens in the average home Chris. Parents may - at times - discipline a child. But what you describe above is NOT normal. Discipline does not lead to moments like you described.

 

My mother slapped my face when I mouthed off to her. But ... she NEVER abused me. There is a difference. My father - very occasionally (as in I can count on one hand the number of times it happened) spanked us children. Never - violently. This is discipline.

And Chris ... the difference between discipline and abuse - is that abuse is violent, consistent (day in - day out). Abuse is a way of life - discipline is something that is occasional and NEVER crosses a line into violence.

 

Seabiscuit, until I ran into Chris I thought "spanking" was what I experienced as a child. And - as I said - I can count on one hand the number of times my father spanked us (meaning on one hand for all of his six children). And when he spanked us we were clothed and he used his hand, never a paddle, belt, rod, switch, nothing but his hand. And he did NOT spank us until we whimpered or "became sweet". It was maybe two - or three - hard swats. Enough to get our attention.

 

So.. when I hear people say that parents should NEVER spank, I think of this definition of spanking. And I don't think it's possible (or even adviseable) to make it illegal to spank by this definition. It is not possible - because if one were going to investigate and remove children from the home because of the type of discipline I experienced in my childhood, the system would be overwhelmed. And then children who are truly being beaten would get lost in the volume (as if they aren't already).

 

There needs to be education in this area, and I do think we need to define the difference between beating and spanking.

 

Maybe I'm measuring success in a limited way. When I first came to this site, I searched for information on corporal punishment. I found one conversation where some folks were defending the right to spank. I almost left. Now, we have a thread a million pages long about the subject. Maybe success is simply getting people to talk about the issue.

 

Maybe if we had more open conversation, more people would come out and share the horrors of growing up with these so called, "loving beatings." Maybe simply talking is a success.

 

I do think talking is success, because talking leads to education. I know something now that I didn't know at the beginning of this thread. I have decided to become actively involved in stopping the use of paddles, switches, rods, etc.. in the beating of children. And I say "beating" because that is what it is. The word, "spanking" is used in different ways by different people. Most people I know think "spanking" is something you do rarely as a parent, with a bare hand, over a clothed bottom. The word, "beating" carries pretty much the same meaning throughout our culture.

 

I can tell you from personal experienced it was not traumatic when my mother slapped my face for sassing off to her. It was not traumatic the ONE time my father spanked me for sassing off to my mother.

 

I did not loose sleep over it, I did not feel unloved, I did not feel unworthy. The trauma that so many on this board have experienced was NEVER a part of the picture.

 

If I could give any advice to those working on this issue is to really draw a line (a big solid line) between what you experienced as a child and what most of us think a "spanking" is.

 

Seabiscuit, and anyone else who has experienced abuse, please do not misunderstand what I am saying here. I am saying these things in the spirit of talking. You are right Seabiscuit, sometimes the success is in getting to the point where we can talk.

 

I try to talk to her on the phone, but it's difficult. In every conversation with me she complains, complains, complains, mostly about her sister and how terrible her sister is and how everyone thinks that her sister is so wonderful but they don't know the things she knows about her sister and if they did they wouldn't think her sister is so wonderful because her sister is just a brat.

 

Taph, as you can see from reading my above response to Seabiscuit, my mother and I had difficulties. I inherited her temper and my father's ability to slice people apart with sarcasm. My daughter also inherited this mix. All I can tell you is to be extremely patient - it will pass - it will get better.

 

The one thing I used to do, and still do occassionally, is to write my children letters. I get a very nice greeting card that is blank inside and I sit down and write them letters that they can hold on to and read over and over if they need to. The only rules I have for this practice are to speak highly of THEM and, never ever do I allow myself to critique their decisions or criticize them in anyway. The cards must be positive and uplifting throughout. As my own mother used to teach me, "if you can't say anything positive, don't say anything at all". When it comes to these cards, I hold myself to that rule.

 

And the kids do hold onto those cards, they've told me so. And those cards have helped heal, too. But, it does take time and lots of patience.

[Taphophilia]

She also brought up my deconversion from Christianity. I deconverted when she was twelve. She said that all of her life (since she was twelve) all she ever heard me say was how bad Christianity is, how Christianity is a cult, and how anyone who believes in Christianity is brainwashed.

She said there are other religions that are just as bad as Chrsitanity, like Islam, but I never complained about them. Now, because of me, she doesn't even know what to believe anymore and she's not even sure if there is a god and that's my fault.

 

Taph

 

 

 

Thanks OM,

 

When my 14 year old is bothered and I can't talk to her I write her notes and ask her what is bothering her. She will write it to me and we exchange this way.

 

Thanks for the card idea. I will send one to my oldest tomorrow.

[Open_Minded]

She also brought up my deconversion from Christianity. I deconverted when she was twelve. She said that all of her life (since she was twelve) all she ever heard me say was how bad Christianity is, how Christianity is a cult, and how anyone who believes in Christianity is brainwashed.

She said there are other religions that are just as bad as Chrsitanity, like Islam, but I never complained about them. Now, because of me, she doesn't even know what to believe anymore and she's not even sure if there is a god and that's my fault.

 

Taph.... I debated between PMing you and posting here. I decided to post here because this thread is about the differences between constructive and destructive parenting. And well, this is an issue for teens and their parents.

 

My parents left Christianity when I was about 12 years old. It was hard on the whole family. As all of you know, deconversion is personally unsettling. When there are children involved then it just gets more complicated.

 

I struggled most with my father's deconversion. He wavered between Agostic/Atheist throughout my teen and young adult years. And he was quite vocal about it. Our dinner table discussions were either about politics or religion or both (during the late 60s and early 70s).

 

I guess what I'm saying, Taph is I know how your daughter feels.....

 

My father traveled for a living - he was on the road alot. One time - I must have been 13-14 years old - he came home all battered and bruised and physically shaken. There had been a horrible car accident. I still don't know how he got home, I imagine a police officer drove him home. My memory of this incident was coming downstairs to my father and mother sitting in the living room and seeing my father as I never had before - just completely shaken and quite vulnerable. I remember him talking to mom and telling her how lucky he was to be alive - his face had cuts on it and he was very bruised - he must have hit the windshield or steering wheel.

 

In this conversation it came out that other people had died - maybe 2-3 other people - it was more than one person. To this day I do not know how the accident happened. There was bad weather - I remember that. I remember seeing Dad like this afterwards. And in my 13-14 year old mind all I could think of was that Dad was alive, sitting here in the living room safe. And so, I said, "See Dad there is a God, you are safe, you are alive ... here with us". His response to me, Taph, was... "If there were a God, there wouldn't have been an accident, those other people wouldn't have died".

 

He was angry and hurt when he said those words. He was not angry at me, he was angry and hurt that those people had died and that there wasn't a god, or if there was that god had just sat by and allowed this devastating thing to happen.

 

I have never forgotten that incident, his response grounded me in reality. But, at the time, Taph it hurt deeply. And at the time it made me angry at him.

 

Dad's utter honesty with me was in a moment of purety. He was exhausted, vulnerable, shaken and he wasn't in a position to find patient words for a daughter who did believe. It was pure honesty - but it hurt - deeply. And yet, it grounded me, it taught me to think very hard about the way I viewed God.

 

In the end, the gift Dad gave each of us children was the freedom to find our own answers and the expectation that we find those answers based in honesty. He expected us to THINK - and it was not always easy. Again patience is the best response, patience and education. If your daughter is struggling with these issues, buy her a book titled ONENESS: GREAT PRINCIPLES SHARED BY ALL RELIGIONS By Jeffrey Moses. http://www.onenessonline.com

 

This book will help your daughter get to the core spiritual teachings that transcend religious boundries. From very early on my father explored the paths of different religions. There is an underlying unity and core teachings between the world's religions. This can serve as a solid foundation for your daughter to start discovering her own answers. And, if the book comes from you, it can also serve as a point of healing.

 

Constructive discipline, constructive parenting requires endless amounts of patience. It requires us - as parents to grow up. We are the adults - we are suppose to be teaching our children unconditional love. And they will learn what they see. If they see patience, they will learn patience. If they see honesty, they will learn honesty. If they see compassion, they will learn compassion.

 

My father's immediate response to me did not seem very compassionate at all, but in reality it was. He was weeping for the families who had lost loved ones. It just took me awhile to figure it out, because all I saw was that he had no compassion for my simplistic understanding of God. Your daughter will figure it out as well, Taph. She just needs lots of patience and the permission to search for her own understanding of these things.

[Seabiscuit]

OM, please forgive my narrow mindedness on this, but I don't think a parent should hit a child no matter what. I'm sure you can understand why I feel this way given my experience. The real question is that when a parent does hit such as over a fully clothed butt or a once in a life time hit across the face, does that make the parent a poor parent? My answer is no--absolutely not. I think that its not about being a perfect parent.

 

To compare the parent who hits a child three times while growing up to my situation is unproductive. Yes, we do need to draw a line in the sand. If you notice, I try to use the term "beating" instead of "spanking."

 

Emotionally its hard for me to use either term. Spanking wasn't what happened and its painful to know that my parents brought me into this world and were the two people who were supposed to love me and did--but beat me.

 

Its often hard to admit how difficult we can be as humans as we mature. I'm sure I was no angle as a teenager. I sulked, had huge mood swings, and avoided communication with my mother. I had good reason for some of that--she wasn't a safe human. However, there was an aspect that I was going through. I wanted to find my independence.

 

IMHO I believe that growing up is just hard on everyone--even in the best situations. Children are suppose to push the rules, try new things, and do things by themselves. As I learned more about Taph and OM situations, I bet being a good parent is a lot of work and pain. All those little ones pushing their way out of the nest and stepping all over you in the process. I think it would take a lot of courage not to pull out a huge stick and "tell 'em who's boss!"

 

I admire a parent who can say, "Yep, I raised healthy, productive human beings!" So they hit two or three times in the process. I admire someone who didn't take the easy way out--and the brand of corporal punishment I got *was* the easy way out.

[Open_Minded]

OM, please forgive my narrow mindedness on this, but I don't think a parent should hit a child no matter what. I'm sure you can understand why I feel this way given my experience. The real question is that when a parent does hit such as over a fully clothed butt or a once in a life time hit across the face, does that make the parent a poor parent? My answer is no--absolutely not. I think that its not about being a perfect parent.

 

Seabiscuit... you are a lot of things ... but narrow minded is NOT one of them. If I had come out of your background I would feel exactly the way you do. I admire your ability to grow beyond what you endured and to speak out publically.

 

We see things differently because we come out of different backgrounds. It's that simple. The fact that we can come together and talk and learn - that is what counts. I have learned much from you these past 2-3 weeks. It is in these types of discussions that solutions can be found.

 

To compare the parent who hits a child three times while growing up to my situation is unproductive. Yes, we do need to draw a line in the sand. If you notice, I try to use the term "beating" instead of "spanking."

 

You know - I've been thinking about your billboard all day, Seabiscuit. See the thing is until Chris I never knew there were companies that produced child beating devices. I never knew there was an industry around this type of thing. Or that there were child beating manuals - using the Bible to defend such practices.

 

If I saw a billboard displaying paddles, whips, switches, and rods with a child's scarred bare bottom along with the Bible verse used to defend such practices - I would pay attention. Especially if it said at the bottom -

 

"Spare the Rod - you know in your heart it's the right thing to do."

 

I mean - you see these billboards all over the place that say, "Abortion: you know in your heart it's wrong"

 

Why is ok for the literalists to reference what they "know in their heart" when it comes to abortion but not reference what they "know in their heart" when it comes to beating a child?(shaking head)

 

Emotionally its hard for me to use either term. Spanking wasn't what happened and its painful to know that my parents brought me into this world and were the two people who were supposed to love me and did--but beat me.

 

I can only imagine.

 

Seabiscuit - I wish I could say something more that would be helpful and compassionate. But, well, I've said this before and I'll say it again, I am struck silent in the face of what you and others have endured.

 

IMHO I believe that growing up is just hard on everyone--even in the best situations. Children are suppose to push the rules, try new things, and do things by themselves. As I learned more about Taph and OM situations, I bet being a good parent is a lot of work and pain. All those little ones pushing their way out of the nest and stepping all over you in the process. I think it would take a lot of courage not to pull out a huge stick and "tell 'em who's boss!"

 

Growing up is extremely hard. I wouldn't re-live my teen years for all the money in the world. There is conflict between parent and child for just what you observed. The child is trying to learn independence and the parents see danger all over the place. The stretching and and testing that come with those years are just plain hard on everyone involved. Then you add a liberal dose of hormone induced behavior and well - it's just a recipe for frustration and tears all around. Antlerman was right earlier when he commented:

 

Now the point is this: A parent can either make the effort to try to understand these sorts of natural things that affect a child's world and their behaviors and work with them in positive, constructive ways; or they can pursue these easy, overly-simplified ideas of ignorant hacks like Dobson and Tripp and take a belt to their child's bare skin because they are misbehaving because of some dark, evil spirit influencing them. Just whip them to get them to stop it, then justify it as Bilbically based.

 

And like Antlerman says, - it is a culture war.

 

In order to affect positive change it will be necessary to be blunt in educating people. It will be necessary to show people in concrete terms that some parents consider "spanking" to be using switches, rods, and paddles on bare little bottoms until the child is "broken". That is the way the average parent on the street will be able to back laws, fight to remove these devices from our culture and expect all parents to live up to a higher standard. Every parent should get a dose of the education we've gotten in the past two weeks - that type of information will change minds and nothing less.

[Seabiscuit]

I keep thinking about what I could do to get the word out there. I've created presentations and websites in my head. The reality is I'm afraid of public speaking and my time is used up with work, my husband, and my life.

 

I suspect something will come about and I'll know its time for me to take action. I've also needed time to really heal. I had a friend of mine just read my letter. She said I sounded so calm and compassionate and that made her more upset.

 

Sometimes I pretend that help put Roy in jail on child abuse. I get angry when I think of all those folks like him who write books. Roy's latest book was published in 2002. He left the "removal of pants and underware" out of that book.

 

Children like us need a voice sooner rather then later. Someone to say that corporal punishment is wrong. I had long left christianity when I wrote my letter, but I added a verse that I could never understand why people like Roy ignored. The verse, and excuse me for not being able to quote it properly (my bible is in a landfill), about Jesus saying it would be better to put a mill stone around your neck and drown then to hurt little ones. If Jesus ever really lived, I'll bet he didn't think those beatings were right.

 

If I could fill a billboard, I'd show the back side of a child with strips. After a beating, our behinds looked like we sat on a waffle iron--bruises and broken skin. I'd have this next to the picture, "This isn't love even if you weren't angry."

[Taphophilia]

Seabiscuit,

 

(Edit: Broken skin? You parents spanked you until you were bruised and broke the skin? That is very severe abuse and they didn't think there was anything wrong with this? I know you said you were severely spanked, but this more than spanking. What you describe is more than beating. It's torture.)

 

I do think spanking the kids would be an easy out. However, I think as a parent one has to have a sense of humor, some of the things that they say and do, that would be considered by others as bad behavior, are just plain funny. The hardest thing I had to do sometimes was not to laugh. Some of the things I said about my daughter above were pretty funny even at the time.

 

When she told me that I, as a terrible mother, forced her to take ballet and tap against her will. I told her that she should get some counseling to deal with her trauma of forced tap dancing. She even laughed when I said that.

 

You have to give your children so much of who you are and if you have a lack of self, you are not going to give your children what they need. Spanking/beating solves the problem temporarily. It does not solve the problem in the long term. I think that like OM said where she was spanked, it wasn't a big deal for her because there was already a foundation of love and care that she could trust. You didn't have that because you lived in fear.

 

I have three children and they are three very different people. I can't relate to them all the same and they all have different needs. I never wanted to be a perfect parent and I am the first one to admit that I'm not. I have made mistakes, but when I do, I own up to them, especially with my children. They are people too and deserve respect just as every human being derserves respect. I didn't want to be a perfect mom, because that would mean my children would have had to be perfect and I would never want to put that expectation on a child.

 

I always had lots of fun with my kids doing things with them. I didn't take them out and spend money on them, when we had extra money we did things together, like get a motel room for the weekend and hang out and swim at the motel pool. I knew that the kids wouldn't remember anything I bought them. They would remember the time I spent with them.

 

It's easy when they are little. Well, in some ways it's harder because they can't take care of themselves yet. They look up to you and seek your advice and actually listen to your answers. When they get older, as in teens, they suddenly think you know absolutely nothing. You are the most clueless person on the planet and they know more than you ever will. I understand they are just trying to find their place in the world, but as a parent it's the hardest thing I've ever done. I live with people who don't like me most of the time.

 

What is hardest is seeing them make mistakes that you know are going to screw up their lives completely and they tell you that you don't know what you are talking about. My daughter didn't do anything terrible, stupid kid stuff, but she wasn't going to school. I could not stand by and watch her drop out of high school, so I had to do something drastic.

 

The truth is that if I understood that my beautiful babies would have turned into teenagers, I'm not so sure I would have been so anxious to have them. Unfortunately, I raised them to be independant and strong minded, which it seems has come back to haunt me.

 

 

 

OM, thank you, you have given my some hope. Patience is the key and if I can survive with my sanity that long, I'm sure she'll come around.

 

Taph

[Open_Minded]

(Edit: Broken skin? You parents spanked you until you were bruised and broke the skin? That is very severe abuse and they didn't think there was anything wrong with this? I know you said you were severely spanked, but this more than spanking. What you describe is more than beating. It's torture.)

 

Taph ... you are right .... it is torture. Pure and simple ... it completely goes beyond any boundaries of discipline. And the thing is - it's already illegal to treat a child like this. The problem is that people use the Bible to defend it, I mean how often do authorities actually remove children from these homes, after all the children are being raised in "good chrisitan homes".

 

And the other thing is that we are not going after those who produce the torture devices, the torture manuals, or those who teach parents how to torture.

 

I do think spanking the kids would be an easy out. However, I think as a parent one has to have a sense of humor, some of the things that they say and do, that would be considered by others as bad behavior, are just plain funny. The hardest thing I had to do sometimes was not to laugh. Some of the things I said about my daughter above were pretty funny even at the time.

 

When she told me that I, as a terrible mother, forced her to take ballet and tap against her will. I told her that she should get some counseling to deal with her trauma of forced tap dancing. She even laughed when I said that.

 

You are so right Taph, a sense of humor goes a long way. When my eldest daughter was in highschool, taking a psychology course - they were studying early chidhood psychology. So, one day we're sitting around the living room and she asked me how long I nursed her and her siblings. And rather casually, absent-mindedly I told her, "about 2 years".

 

Well .... she just went off the deep end and accused me of damaging her and her siblings for life. Somewhere in this psychology class she had learned that a mother should not nurse longer than 6 months to a year. I mean - she was really upset about this - she was in tears. It took everything in me NOT to laugh and NOT to get on the phone and give the teacher (a male - sorry all you guys out there - but the man had never breastfed a child - he didn't have a clue and he should have gotten the facts first) a piece of my mind. This was a really big deal to my daughter - she was filling out a survey about her early childhood for class and one of the questions was, "did your mother breastfeed you and if so, how long?"

 

I mean think about it, for a 15-16 year-old kid to have to write down for a male teacher and risk her classmates finding out that her mother nursed her for two years. The question was an idiotic question for teen kids. And her response to my answer was over the top to say the least, but given the fact that she was a raging hormone at the time - it was well within the realm of "normal" for 15-16 years old.

 

I have three children and they are three very different people. I can't relate to them all the same and they all have different needs. I never wanted to be a perfect parent and I am the first one to admit that I'm not. I have made mistakes, but when I do, I own up to them, especially with my children. They are people too and deserve respect just as every human being derserves respect. I didn't want to be a perfect mom, because that would mean my children would have had to be perfect and I would never want to put that expectation on a child.

 

Again - you are right on. Sometimes I think my eldest got all my mistakes. I mean, we are handed these beautiful babies and we don't know a damned thing. And so we learn as we go ... and before you know it we're making mistakes all over the place. The good thing is - if there is love - it is possible to survive MOST mistakes. But unconditional love has to be the foundation. My daughter and I have survived both of our mistakes because the foundation of our relationship is unconditional love.

 

The truth is that if I understood that my beautiful babies would have turned into teenagers, I'm not so sure I would have been so anxious to have them. Unfortunately, I raised them to be independant and strong minded, which it seems has come back to haunt me.

 

Taph, I know what you mean. Back to the sense of humor thing again. About 3-4 years ago, when our eldest was starting college she felt we owed her everything. She was going to school with kids who didn't have to work to help pay tuition and living expenses. My husband and I have the means to help her, but we expect her to pay a share and work as well. It is part of learning to live in the real world.

 

This caused considerable stress on our relationship, until she figured out for herself why our expectations were in her best interest. Well at the height of the stress we were all at my parents home for a family gathering. My siblings and their spouses were there. It was a full house. And our daughter - usually quite outgoing - was sulking in a corner having nothing to do with anyone because her father and I wouldn't pay for a springbreak trip with her freshman classmates. She was angry, and anger was spewing out of every pore in her body.

 

My youngest brother, his wife and my mom mentioned something to my husband and I while we were in a conversation circle. We told them why she was so upset with us and sulking. Well Mom went about about finding something productive for my daughter to do. She arranged with my daughter to take all the younger grandchildren to a movie. My daughter couldn't say, "no" to her Nana. As mom was arranging this I noticed my brother and his wife leave to run some errands. I figured they were getting something for their own young children.

 

Well later - after my daughter packed all the younger grandchildren into the van and drove them to a theatre, my Mom called my husband and myself into the living room where all the adults were sitting around with "shit eating grins" on their faces. Then my youngest brother and his wife brought us a bag from the local crafting store. Inside the bag were two "crowns of thorns" they had put together quick with the help of folks up at the craft store. All the adults had a good laugh and humor helped my husband and I survive our daughter's cold shoulder. We've never told her about that incident. I suppose someday we will, when she has a few children of her own.

 

But humor does help, and patience carries a lot of weight as well

 

OM, thank you, you have given my some hope. Patience is the key and if I can survive with my sanity that long, I'm sure she'll come around.

 

She will, Taph, I can say that from the other side now. It just takes time, patience a lot of love, and a sense of humor.

[Seabiscuit]

Seabiscuit,

 

(Edit: Broken skin? You parents spanked you until you were bruised and broke the skin? That is very severe abuse and they didn't think there was anything wrong with this? I know you said you were severely spanked, but this more than spanking. What you describe is more than beating. It's torture.)

Taph

 

Just to be perfectly clear. My parents used belts, paddles with scripture verses, and bamboo sticks (the garden variety).

 

This hit us and would leave welts that did break the skin--like bad cat scratches. Those who got hit longer got bruises. It would be painful to take baths or sit down. The welts were ugly looking and painful. They didn't break the skin like a cut, but like a deep scratch in the shape of the tool.

 

My family says that I exaggerate. So, 15 years ago, when I was 25 years old, I called Char (Roy Lessin's wife) and told her my memory of a beating.

 

1. Taken to a private room

2. Told to undress (or undressed if too young)

3. Took a submissive position

4. Hit until submissive/broken cry

5. Redressed and held with love

6. Prayed for forgiveness.

 

I explained the marks I remembered having on my thighs and buttocks. She said that I remembered correctly and that was within her husband's teachings.

 

Some children got hit in the privates or on the underbelly because they wouldn't lie still. Parents were instructed to avoid these parts but to remember they were fighting for their children's souls. It was better to injury your child then for them to not go to heaven according to Char. Not a direct quote, but a girl can only be so precise.

[Taphophilia]

I cannot believe that people would write these kinds of books and that there are parents who listen to this advice. I did swat my kids on the butt a couple of times when they were two, with my hand and they had clothes and heavily padded diapers. It was to keep them out of danger when they were running away from me toward the street or trying to climb near the stove. It was to let them know I was serious. It was more the sound that got their attention. Though they cried like they were beaten, I know they felt no pain. They were just surprised.

 

I would never in a million years ever think of hitting my kids bare skin or use anything other than a hand on a well padded bottom and only if it were for something important such as to keep them from getting hurt.

 

When my oldest was two, I couldn't keep her out of the broom closet. No matter what I did, she would go in there. So...I cleaned it out, put the brooms in the laundry room, scrubbed it clean, put a blanket on the floor of the closet with a couple of toys and she had her very own cubby hole to hide in. She still remembers that I did this.

 

When she was five, one time I was making dinner. I was cutting carrots. She kept trying to cut them and I told her leave the carrots alone. I turned away for just a moment and that's all it took. She was holding her finger.

I asked her if she cut the carrots. She shook her head yes. I asked her to let me see her finger. She held it out out to me with a small bleeding slice in it. I took her to the bathroom and cleaned it up and put a bandaid on it and told her that when I tell her "no", it's not to be mean to her, but because I don't want her to get hurt. I kissed the bandaid and she went off and played.

 

I am saying this because I get the idea that some Christians would think these are examples of bad behavior in children. They are not. They are just being themselves.

 

OM,

 

I breast fed my kids that long. I come from a long line of breast feeding women and the women in my family all breast fed their kids that long. I think what you describe is the attitude that many people have towards breast feeding. It's all right to breast feed a young baby, but it's not all right to breast feed an older baby or a toddler. They have the opinoin that it's almost sexual abuse.

 

When my oldest was six months old, I asked the doctor about when to feed her juice. He said not to give her juice in a bottle, only a sippy cup. I told him that she wouldn't take a bottle, I tried, and she refused to take it. The DOCTOR asked me, "If she won't take a bottle, how do you feed her?"

 

I know what you mean about the oldest. We practice on them. By the time the next ones come along we realize that we didn't kill the oldest and some things aren't that big of a deal. Either that or we just become lazy. It's hard work being overprotective with more than one child.

 

They also slept with me. They had a crib, but they were hardly ever in it. Even now that they are older they will come into my room sometimes in the middle of the night to sleep.

 

Taph

[Taphophilia]

Taph and O_M, I haven't been interjecting very much because my children are not teens yet so I have NO CLUE what it is like to be in either of your shoes.

 

My relationship with my mother from 7 on up was very bitter and I carried it with me into adulthood. Finally, at the age of 25 I let her have it, but our relationship is fine and I love her with all of my heart and not only that but we are very close. I was never physically abused but emotionally abused and carried ill-will toward her for standing idly by why my step-dad shredded me to bits with horrible emotional abuse. Being called lard-ass my whole childhood didn't help with self-esteem and my mom would put my jeans on while my step-dad chastised me while saying,"Look at that, your 37 year old mother looks more attractive in your jeans than you do." Things like that coupled with a dead-beat dad who missed pick-ups was just more than I could handle....happily I can report that my relationship with him is great now too.

 

*Sigh* sometimes emotional can be just as bad. BUT I'm okay now, though I can't really discuss it without getting a little upset. Anyway, I admire you both and it appears that your great mom's who have done their best and even then, sometimes the relationship still has turmoil.

 

For the record, my step-father is an agnostic/atheist and my mom is a 'liberal' christian and my dad is a fundy-conspiracy theorist believing christian.

 

That's so bad, Serene.

 

I didn't have a great childhood or teen life, but my mother always talked to me. She was emotionally available to me and as a result, I got through some pretty terrible things.

 

I had a couple of relationships after my divorce, but I soon figured out that in order to be the kind of mom I wanted to be to my kids, I'd have to for go a relationship with a man. There are not a lot of men out there who understand that you have to give a lot of your time and attention to your children and can't give them ALL of your time and attention. I had to choose between my kids and my life. I chose my kids.

 

I've been a single working mom since the 1997. My parents help me financially, so at least that's one worry that I don' t have.

 

Having a teenage daughter is like taking care of an Alzhiemer's patient. You take care of them in the hope that for a moment you get to see a glimmer of the person they once were.

 

Taph

[Casey]

1. Taken to a private room

2. Told to undress (or undressed if too young)

3. Took a submissive position

4. Hit until submissive/broken cry

5. Redressed and held with love

6. Prayed for forgiveness

 

I remember exactly the same thing from catholic boarding school with the exception of steps 5 and 6. Why all the gibble-gabble bibble-babble? They just started as they meant to go on. Less hypocritical maybe but no less abusive or painful.

 

I spent a year living in a dorm with a sadistic paedophile in charge of it. Interesting times, in the sense of the well-known Chinese curse, that is.

Casey