Spare the Rod, Spare the Child

[Onyx]

Any comment on my story?

[Open_Minded]

Open_Minded asked me in email if I was reading this thread. No, I am not. I have not read anything but the first post from Open_Minded and I replied, saying I was done with my side. I thought that implied that I wouldn't be reading any more but I guess I needed to make it clear. I wrote what I believed was an answer with integrity and honesty and said all I needed to say.

 

If you have something you really believe I must read, write me like she did: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

 

If you absolutely are driving yourself bonkers not understanding what I meant by something, I'd be happy to clarify. But in email.

 

Thanks for understanding!

 

Chris ... your response reminded me of yet another way that your heart/conscious knows something is wrong?

 

First two points I listed:

• You have to hide what you are doing.
  
• You have to justify, defend, or rationalize it - with some outside source (like the Bible) - so you can live with yourself.
  

And your response - here - is an example of a 3rd way that your heart/conscious knows something is wrong......

• You refuse to read, look at, discuss, any other possible ways of dealing with a situation. You put your head in the sand.
  

(Shaking head now)

 

Fwee...

Boobies are eeeeeebil!!!!111o9yjm!!

Beating your child is fine, but don't you dare talk about boobies!!

 

Thanks for the chuckle ... I needed it. This has been a long week.

 

SillyGeezer10

Any comment on my story?

 

I don't think Chris will be answering anytime soon. He has his head placed firmly in the sand dunes of literalism.

 

I would like to say to all of you who have written about your own childhood experiences with abuse, thank you. Thank you for sharing so deeply. If I've not acknowledged your contributions - it is not for lack of appreciation - it is because your contributions have a rare impact on me. I am rendered wordless; struck deeply - there are no words to remotely express my gratitude for your sharing and my saddness for what you endured. My only hope is that you've found healing as adults.

 

The one good thing that has happened since Chris' post, yesterday, is that he has emailed me a long letter - with almost no Bible verses in it. The email address I gave him is a yahoo account set up specifically for off-line discussion. He knows that I will disable the account if I feel our conversation is bearing no fruit - and he knows I will NOT discuss the Bible.

 

Who knows, we'll see where it goes. One can only try. You should all know that if my private conversation with Chris continues - I will be coming back here, copying appropriate posts and emailing them to Chris as part of a larger discussion. So keep the advice and personal experiences with parenting, abuse, etc... coming folks. I intend to use it - if Chris can give himself permission to get into a deeper discussion with me, that is As I said, "one can only try".

[Lycorth]

Here's the premise of 123 Magic:

 

Thanks - I'll make a note of that for when I dare to boldly go where this man has never gone before

[Seabiscuit]

Any comment on my story?

 

 

SG, I'm wondering if you were hoping for a comment from Chris or from us. When I read your story, I was amazed that you fought back. Wish I had. I didn't at all.

 

It is healing for me to learn I'm not the only spiritually abused kid out there. I'm open to starting a thread to talk about how christian choices of discipline affected those of us who were at the hand of such "loving" cruelness. Sharing can be so helpful. I'll start one if there's interest.

 

s

[Onyx]

I wanted a comment from you all.

[Seabiscuit]

I'll tell you about my childhood.

I'm now 16.

My father's not really an abusive person now but when I was younger, he was fearful to behold. You see, my parents are now divorced.

My earliest memory of religion and abuse was when I was 5.

I can recall a cross on my door (now gone) when I went for dinner one night.

The father prepared something for the family. We prayed.

He commanded me to eat spinach.

I didn't wanna to eat it.

But I ate because Dad forced me to eat them.

When I ate too much for my little 5 year old tummy to pack it in, I vomited on the plate.

That wasn't the worst of it.

He rubbed my head in the plate.

I screamed and resisted.

 

Then I was taken to the room.

THE ROOM NO. 1.

He belted me.

Twice on the bottom.

Then he threw me on to the bed and leaved me there for the rest of the night.

I could only think of what I've done to upset Daddy.

And that was first of many six of the bests.

I was whipped with the blunt end only once.

 

Another one later on, I confessed that I'm an atheist, when I was 15 to Dad.

He went beserk and threatened to throw me out of the house.

He hit me a lot and I hit back at him physically.

I had to pretend that I'm Christian to him so I could stay in the house.

 

In a way, it messed up my life and way that I relate to things and people.

It's a reason that I have few friends because I'm pretty violent and has suicidual tencidencies and depression, not to mention it was one of the indirect reasons that I did some bad things sometimes.

I have to go to the counsellor to heal not only bullying, mental issues but my relational issues.

I sometime beat myself up emotionally, regret something and I sometimes think badly of myself.

 

I had a pretty twisted family.

I do like my family but I dislike going to Dad's house now.

Why I do get it badly?

There's many, many reasons for why I do and feel things like that and this is one of them.

 

 

I was curious about a couple of things. Can you talk more about your father not being an abusive person, but fearful to behold. I think I can relate, but I'm not sure.

 

The spinach story is horrible. I have trouble with food because of all the discipline I got around food. Is that the same for you? Do you have children now? I was also curious if you still have a relationship with your folks? Mine has been hard won at least what it is now.

 

s

[Taphophilia]

I don't understand why some adults treat their own children like this. They treat strangers better than they do their own children. Children deserve respect as much as you expect them to respect you. A child may be afraid of you but they will not respect you. Respect is something that is earned!

 

OM, yes I breatfed. My childrren have never even had a bottle.

 

Taph

[greasemonkey]

Any comment on my story?

 

 

SG, I'm wondering if you were hoping for a comment from Chris or from us. When I read your story, I was amazed that you fought back. Wish I had. I didn't at all.

 

It is healing for me to learn I'm not the only spiritually abused kid out there. I'm open to starting a thread to talk about how christian choices of discipline affected those of us who were at the hand of such "loving" cruelness. Sharing can be so helpful. I'll start one if there's interest.

 

s

 

I'd be open to that thread.

 

Geez... when I was eleven or so, one of the kids on my schoolbus said that a couple of kids were expelled because they were caught "eff-you-see-kay-ing" at the school (I didn't even realize he was spelling a word). Everyone else laughed, so I did too, although I didn't have a clue what everyone was laughing about. When I asked my mom what that meant, I got my mouth washed out with soap for even asking with absolutely no explanations as to why. It was the last time I ever asked my mom anything personal.

 

christian ideas of discipline can fuck you up.

[Onyx]

I was curious about a couple of things. Can you talk more about your father not being an abusive person, but fearful to behold. I think I can relate, but I'm not sure.

 

Well, he is more gentler and never hit me anymore now.

But I still don't want to stay at his house.

 

 

The spinach story is horrible. I have trouble with food because of all the discipline I got around food. Is that the same for you? Do you have children now? I was also curious if you still have a relationship with your folks? Mine has been hard won at least what it is now.

 

I never eat much vegatables as a result.

No, I don't have children.

I had to beg and beg the dad for a relationship.

But I didn't have to beg my mum for it.

Both had hit me.

But mum's lot more better than dad.

[Open_Minded]

Geez... when I was eleven or so, one of the kids on my schoolbus said that a couple of kids were expelled because they were caught "eff-you-see-kay-ing" at the school (I didn't even realize he was spelling a word). Everyone else laughed, so I did too, although I didn't have a clue what everyone was laughing about. When I asked my mom what that meant, I got my mouth washed out with soap for even asking with absolutely no explanations as to why. It was the last time I ever asked my mom anything personal.

 

christian ideas of discipline can fuck you up.

 

Greasemonkey ... I hope you don't mind but your story reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw.

 

"fonixs phucked me up"

[Taphophilia]

You know, I wish my 16 year old would read these.

 

She has thrown in my face numerous times what she considers the major complaint that I did to her when she was little.

 

From the tender age of two and a half until she was eight, I forced her (against her will) to take ballet and tap dance lessons.

 

Taph

[Open_Minded]

Sure thing. I'm taking sharing my past experiences to a new level in this thread. So, I'll need time to figure out how to set it up.

 

OM, why do you and Antlerman set up threads in the Lions Den and not in Exchristian life? Just wondering. I thought I'd get eaten when you first sent me a thread to the Lions Den. WOW! I'm still here! Not even missing a bite! Well, I'm still curious.

 

Well, I don't know about Antlerman. One can only speak for oneself - but I avoid posting new threads in Exchristian Life because I'm a Christian. To me - it would feel as though I'm invading the inner sanctuary so-to-speak.

 

Although - back in February I did post one thread there - but I consulted with a moderator before doing so...

 

Here's a link to that thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=6877

 

The reason I posted this thread in the Lion's Den was simple - I was very angry when I started it. I was sick of Chris constantly telling us we were condemned because "God's Law was written on our hearts" when it was SOooo ..... bloody obvious that the man didn't know how to make decisions from his own heart.

 

I wanted to "call him out" and I wanted to do it in a place where people could hold him accountable.

 

Don't get me wrong - I do feel sorry for him. I really do - I can't even begin to imagine what he endured as a child.

 

But, that does not mean he's off the hook as a father, either. :angry:

 

............

 

The fact that I grew up scrapping with 5 siblings might explain my willingness to participate in the feasting here in the Lion's Den as well....

 

[Open_Minded]

Hello Everyone:

 

Another update. Chris does not know what he set off in my heart. Finding out that there is an entire industry of books built up around this systematic form of child abuse has really set in motion a determination to stop as much of it as I can.

 

At this point Amazon.com is selling the following books:

 

To Train Up a Child by Michael & Debi Pearl

Child Training Tips by Reb Bradley

What the Bible Says about Child Training by Richard Fugate

Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp

 

One of these books... To Train Up a Child has been linked to a death. One mother beat her children and killed her son after following the Pearl's baby-whipping advice.

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/418676.html

 

If you want to sign a petition to have those books removed from the Amazon website, just click here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/pr0t3ct/petition.html

 

This petition is going after Amazon.co.uk.

 

My efforts with Amazon USA are as follows. I've tracked down about 1 dozen phone numbers to Amazon. Not an easy thing to do, because they don't list them on their website.

 

Then I called them this morning and told them if they didn't remove the books listed above from their website in 24 hours I would be releasing the phone numbers to my list. I have a list of email addresses for my interfaith/meditation ministry.

 

Anyway, I'm informing all of you because you may want to sign the petition. And if you want the list of phone numbers, PM me. I'll give you all the phone numbers you want and you can pass them onto your lists. It's grassroots through and through, but it might work.

 

Thanks:

 

Open_Minded

[Amethyst]

My mother use to teach other young mothers how sinful an infant could be. Mother believed all of us showed emotions before we could talk. She told a story of how I turned red and cried when she put me down for a nap. She pulled off my diaper and hit me again and again. Then she put me back down. My sin ran so deep that she had to repeat the paddling until I stayed quiet.

 

Did anyone know that infants will stop crying and go to sleep when large amounts of pain are inflicted upon them? Its a natural defense we're born with.

 

You know, I haven't said anything about this until now, but one of my earliest memories is being spanked by my mother when I was perhaps 3 or 4 because she assumed I was faking being sick. A 3 or 4 year-old child does not know how to fake these things. A teenager, yes, but not a child.

 

If a parent abuses their children physically because they assume the children are being evil when they are not, when the children are innocents, they will grow to resent the abuse and the parent.

[white_raven23]

 

Then I called them this morning and told them if they didn't remove the books listed above from their website in 24 hours I would be releasing the phone numbers to my list. I have a list of email addresses for my interfaith/meditation ministry.

 

Anyway, I'm informing all of you because you may want to sign the petition. And if you want the list of phone numbers, PM me. I'll give you all the phone numbers you want and you can pass them onto your lists. It's grassroots through and through, but it might work.

 

Thanks:

 

Open_Minded

 

Hey Open_Minded. I totally respect your ire and am right there with you on wanting to take action.

 

Books however......

 

Books hold a special place with me. Censorship, even well intended censorship....it's still censorship. To demand the removal of those books from Amazon is censorship. Even though you heart truly is in the right place, I feel the neck prickles when it comes to censorship.

 

I have a better idea. People read those customer reviews. Take advantage of it! Now I'm not familiar with the books you've listed, but if you can guide us to some excerpts that are questionable, we can post review after review knocking down the book ratings, and giving potential buyers some important info on what they are considering buying.

 

The death in association of that one book is pretty damning. Put that in the review.

 

I will happily start a review war against these books with you. As they say, let the buyer beware. A buyer really looking for a good advice book for their kids will be well informed.....and someone curious about how bad these books are and may be starting their own "abuse reference library" will be well informed too (these aren't people looking to abuse......these people are the ones doing research ON abuse in order to help stop it).

 

Give use the ammo O-M! We'll help you give both barrels!

[Open_Minded]

Hey Open_Minded. I totally respect your ire and am right there with you on wanting to take action.

 

Books however......

 

Books hold a special place with me. Censorship, even well intended censorship....it's still censorship. To demand the removal of those books from Amazon is censorship. Even though you heart truly is in the right place, I feel the neck prickles when it comes to censorship.

 

Hello White_raven,

 

I can understand your viewpoint and it is obvious you feel strongly about it. What I am about to write is not an attempt to change your mind, it is simply an explanation of my own position, OK.

 

I too have strong feelings about censorship, in fact I have never in my life advocated the removal of a book from stores shelves. So, when I was poking around about these issues on the web and found the petition ... I had a lot of reservations.

 

When it comes right down to it, I am not a person of absolutes. I never have been. There are very few absolute rights and wrongs in my mind (with the possible exception of beating children and violence directed against the most vulnerable amongst us in general). Anyway, back to the dilema I had when I first ran across the petition.

 

After giving it some consideration, I realized that just a few days ago Rachelness posted a link to a site with a petition to "Stop the Rod": http://stoptherod.net/cgi-bin/sign_devices_petition.

 

The wording of that petition follows:

 

We, the undersigned, ask for a ban on advertising and selling devices for the express purpose of whipping and beating babies and children. Allowing these devices to be advertised and sold only encourages child abuse, and no individual or company should profit from hurting children.

 

I signed that petition without a second thought, it is meant to stop the selling and advertising of devices that are produced for the express purpose of beating babies and children. "Rods" and "Paddles" are tools of child abuse, period. And they should be banned.

 

So... then I come across this petition to remove books that are tools of child abuse from the website of Amazon. For awhile I did hesitate. But, then - well - it ocurred to me that the books do as much damage as the rods, if not more. The books are tools of violence. The petition was not asking that the books be made illegal, or that it be made illegal to sell or advertise the books. The petition was going after a major retailer of books, and asking them to remove the books from their site. It is censorship - I agree.

 

But, well, for myself I have come to the conclusion that there are very few absolutes, and there are times when it is necessary for consumers to use their buying power to put pressure on retailers NOT to carry products which promote violence.

 

I know this can open a whole can of worms because the fundies can use their buying power as well. But - well - they are already doing this. So... it's a can of worms that has already been opened.

 

Bottom line... These books are tools of child abuse. Making those books illegal won't work, so it's pointless. But, from an economic perspective, it may make a difference to put a dent in the profits of people selling the damned books.

 

Again, I respect your position, I really do. What I wrote above is not an attempt to change your mind, merely an explanation of my own position.

 

I have a better idea. People read those customer reviews. Take advantage of it! Now I'm not familiar with the books you've listed, but if you can guide us to some excerpts that are questionable, we can post review after review knocking down the book ratings, and giving potential buyers some important info on what they are considering buying.

 

The death in association of that one book is pretty damning. Put that in the review.

 

I will happily start a review war against these books with you. As they say, let the buyer beware. A buyer really looking for a good advice book for their kids will be well informed.....and someone curious about how bad these books are and may be starting their own "abuse reference library" will be well informed too (these aren't people looking to abuse......these people are the ones doing research ON abuse in order to help stop it).

 

This is a wonderful idea, if it is something you are comfortable doing then you may want to check out the following links. Excerpts from the following books can be found at these links:

 

To Train Up a Child by Michael and Debi Pearl

http://stoptherod.net/ttuac.html

 

Shepherding a Child’s Heart by Ted Tripp

http://stoptherod.net/tripp.html

 

Also ... another excerpt from the Shepherding a Child's Heart follows:

 

On p.151-152 the whipping routine is described in gory detail:

 

1) Take the child to a private place

2) Make the child confess to his/her sins

3) Tell them how many times they'll be flogged

4) Pull down his/her pants or diaper

5) Whip them until they become sweet

6) Do the whipping over your lap

7) Then pull your child up onto your lap and tell them you love them.

 

This excerpt is from another book review.

 

Anyway... whatever you can do to help, I do appreciate and understand that there are those that will not want to work for removing the book from Amazon's website, but any review you can help to let parent's know what they may be buying will help as well. Thank you.

 

In Peace:

 

Open_Minded

[white_raven23]

I just submitted a review for Train up a Child. Hopefully it will appear either later today or tomorrow. Unless Amazon has a issue with the review content. They shouldn't have a problem seeing as they frequently post reviews written in all caps with enough cruddy spelling and grammer errors to make a grade school english teacher weep.

 

Interestingly, I'm tempted to buy the thing. Not to raise offspring by of course (perish the notion). But as I have books on cults, cannibalism, serial murder, plagues, and the like....a book like this would fit right in. I'd stick in next to my book on modern slavery. Or perhaps it fits better in the anti-religion section.

 

I have GOT to organize my reading material.

[Antlerman]

Regarding "To Train Up a Child", this person below posted a postitve, 5 star review of the book. I'm going to hightlight in red the points of highest intrest:

 

We've had this book since it was first published and have used it in training our 3 children. I've seen so many negative reviews that I had to give a positive point of view from someone who has actually USED the advice. I can only guess that our kids would be like all the other "average" kids if we had not come across this book. Our kids are a joy to be around! They are not a "headache" or a hassle or kids that I just tolerate. As for all the cries of "abuse" surrounding this book, I'll give one personal example of following their advice. My daughter (at the time about 2) would not lay down to sleep in her crib one night. She kept standing up crying. I did what they advised and told her to lay down or I would spank her. She didn't, so I spanked her. She still didn't lay down, so I spanked her again and told her to lay down. She refused to and this scenario went on for way longer than I would have liked, but was determined to let her know she was not the one in control here. This was one of 2 times in her life that she decided to do an all out battle of the wills. My heart told me this would damage her "fragile" ego, but my brain told me this was the best thing for her in the long run. She finally decided to give up the fight and laid down and went to sleep. The next morning, I was a little apprehensive when I went to get her when she woke up. I was wondering how she would react after the night before. Boy, was I surprised!! Usually, every morning when I greeted her, she would say "Good morning, mama!" with a big smile. On this morning, however, the first thing she said was "Mama, I love you!" I about fell over with shock, but this experience once again proved the wisdom of doing things for the child's good, not our own good feelings. Our children are some of the happiest kids around and I attribute most of it to following the principles in this book.

 

My comments: And there are no other explainations for the child simply falling asleep after receiving a beating than it was good for them? And the response in the morning of "Mama, I love you!", was not something to break your heart because she felt you had abused her and she wanted you to love her instead of hating her?? And your interpretation of the child's reaction has led you to conclude that you should abandon the response of a mother's heart to the twisted thoughts of a child abuser? Guess what Mom, you've been duped and your child paid the price.

[white_raven23]

I want to be sick.

 

Seriously.

 

That is just revolting.

 

What is it with people?! They are so focused on having obedient children, they give no consideration that what may seem "attractive" child behaviors to adults, could be absolutely detrimental behaviors IN ANOTHER adult! And whether these asswipes like it or not, these kids spend an absolutely tiny part of their lives as those bright eyed, curious, hyperactive (another issue....putting kids on drugs) little cherubs.

 

Do you want to see a frightened, crawling on the carpet, meek, unsure, dependancy-issues ADULT?

 

I don't think so!

[Antlerman]

Here's an interested involved thread about the Tripps and their book and the state of Tennessee going after them: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/16/132347/107

[Antlerman]

Another reason not to spank:

 

The Family Research Laboratory of the University of New Hampshire released a study which showed that the more often a child is spanked, the lower they score in IQ tests four years later. Their paper was described by researcher Dr. Murray Straus at the World Congress of Sociology on 1998-AUG-1 in Montreal, Quebec. They examined 960 American children who were between one and four years old between 1986 and 1990. The researchers do not attribute the lower IQ tests directly to physical injuries sustained during the spanking. Rather, they believe that parents who do not spank are forced to use more reasoning and explaining while disciplining the child. "Some parents think this is a waste of time, but research shows that such verbal parent-child interactions enhance the child's cognitive ability." Thirteen percent of the parents studied reported spanking their children seven or more times a week. The average was 3.6 spankings per week. Twenty-seven percent reported using no physical punishment. Those children who were spanked frequently averaged 98 on their IQ tests. Those who were rarely or never spanked scored 102 -- an above-average score. The four point average decline in IQ among the spanked students is sufficient to have a negative functional effect on those children. Ms. Dawn Walker, executive director of the Canadian Institute of Child Health commented: "We know that children who are under the threat of violence or aggression develop a fight-or-flight response system that has an impact on creativity and imagination, both of which could influence their IQ...Children need discipline but not hitting."

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm#iq

[Seabiscuit]

I promised to start a thread, but I have not had enough time on line to do so. I haven't forgotten!

 

As to all the reference of the books. I know that those who host websites against spanking have wanted children who have been abused by loving beatings to step forward and share their stories. Very few of us speak up. I thought I was the only one with horrid emotional and social problems. I'm not! I think its harder to speak up about what its like to be undressed, bent over a bed or knee, and hit for an unknown length of time.

 

When those of us who have gone through such abuse speak out, the more our society will begin to question this kind of practice.

 

I can't tell you how happy I am that we're discussing this and that more people know about the evil/xian spaking books are out there.

 

 

We may not stop Chris, but we have a chance to stop someone else!

 

s

[Open_Minded]

Everyone:

 

Thank you so much for writing reviews, adding resources to this thread and everything else you are doing.

 

Seabiscuit is right, we may not be able to stop Chris, but we can leave a legacy. This thread can be here for a long time to come to educate parents who are questioning what their church teaches. It can also serve as a place for those who have survived abuse to find some healing.

 

My heart told me this would damage her "fragile" ego, but my brain told me this was the best thing for her in the long run. She finally decided to give up the fight and laid down and went to sleep. The next morning, I was a little apprehensive when I went to get her when she woke up. I was wondering how she would react after the night before. Boy, was I surprised!! Usually, every morning when I greeted her, she would say "Good morning, mama!" with a big smile. On this morning, however, the first thing she said was "Mama, I love you!" I about fell over with shock, but this experience once again proved the wisdom of doing things for the child's good, not our own good feelings. Our children are some of the happiest kids around and I attribute most of it to following the principles in this book.

 

Antlerman... I had read that review too. It brought tears to my eyes. My husband and I have 3 children. When a child says, "I love you" it should not be in fear that they are not loved. How does this mother NOT see that.

 

I'm happy to hear Tennessee is going after the Tripps. One wonders how may children will have to die before others hold authors and publishers of these books accountable in the courts. I also wonder when someone will have enough strength to sue a pastor, or a church, for teaching this crap?

 

I know that those who host websites against spanking have wanted children who have been abused by loving beatings to step forward and share their stories

 

Seabiscuit, would it be possible for you to post some links to those websites, I mean ones that have not already been featured. Again, just as a resource for others passing through?

 

Thanks again everyone.

Open_Minded

[Seabiscuit]

Hello, My vote is for Spare the Rod; Spoil the Child.

 

Here is a the website of Chris Dugan: http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/homepage.html

 

If you scroll down to links, he's got a ton!

 

Here's the guy who wrote the spanking book my parents used. His family and mine were close as I grew up: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-...=283155&s=books

 

Spanking: Why, When, How

 

 

I won't start another thread because the one OM is talking about is exactly what I was thinking! OM you're the greatest!

 

s

[Seabiscuit]

I haven't been able to get time here to talk much. (That could be a good thing )

 

Anyways, I was thinking about this thread we're talking of starting. One thing that I had a hard time when I was looking for help was resources. I can post a message on our new Spare the rod Spare the child thread, some resources. Chris Dugan has some articles that maybe we could link to. He was my first contact a year and a half ago. I really couldn't the find support I needed.

 

I don't mean to minimize pain of others here, but when I tell people I was abused, they think my dad came home drunk and hit me. Some therapists in my past thought I was sexually abused because of my fears of people particularly men.

 

My parents lovingly beat the crap out of me--no one was drunk.

 

This week isn't good for me because of my job being crazy, but next week I can start putting these resources together for our new thread.

 

I think stories are helpful. People I knew at church thought I was out of my mind when I found the nerve to talk about my abusive past. No one, not even aunts or uncles, believed it was that bad. (They still don't!) IMHO, Stories help those looking for healing to know they're not alone.

 

That's my two cents too!

 

s