Guest Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 I'm Amazed by how a single cell organism eventually became a creature that had a stub, and over millions of years that stub turned into a wing, and the bones of that animal became hollow to make it Fly. Evolution seems to be intelligent. Is there a way we can have confidence in this creative power while rejecting Religion and ancient texts? I'm also amazed at what evolution has given humans. No other animal seems to invent anything new century after century..... Yet humans have the internet, automobiles, cell phones, planes, and spaceships that fly to the moon...why are humans the only animal with technology? Also, why are humans the only animal that is ashamed to be naked (with some exceptions)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 20, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted January 20, 2018 Evolution or intelligent design (magic). Those are the choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Evolution is not intelligent. Not at all. What we call "natural selection" has no mind and isn't doing any kind of thinking. No choices are involved. Think of it this way: if you are in a survival situation do you have the talent required to handle that situation? For any living thing facing such a problem the answer is either yes or no. That is natural selection. It doesn't matter what the problem is, be that disease, hunger, being hunted, or anything else. If you have the ability to survive then you were "naturally selected" to survive. If not you were "naturally selected" against. The word is not talking about choices or thinking but rather about individual circumstances. As to your questions: If you follow anthropology you will learn that there are several other apes and chimps that also create tools. This is a primitive form of technology. They are literally millions of years behind humans in technology but at some point our ancestors started out by shaping twigs and sticks. I am only a lay person but if I had to guess I would imagine our embarrassment from being naked came from being forced to wear clothes for millions of years. We had to protect our skin to survive. After doing something for generation after generation people start to see it as normal and the opposite as not normal. Perhaps if one of our other members is an anthropologist he or she could give you a better answer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Rose0101 said: I'm Amazed by how a single cell organism eventually became a creature that had a stub, and over millions of years that stub turned into a wing, and the bones of that animal became hollow to make it Fly. Evolution seems to be intelligent. Is there a way we can have confidence in this creative power while rejecting Religion and ancient texts? ... Yes, the way is quite simple. Spend significant time researching and studying the biological theory of evolution. That theory is based on numerous (millions of) empirical facts, provides clear explanations of those facts and makes many accurate predictions, which is typical for a robust and well developed scientific theory. It does all this without any reference to "Religion and ancient [religious] texts". Study hard. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 7 hours ago, mymistake said: Think of it this way: if you are in a survival situation do you have the talent required to handle that situation? For any living thing facing such a problem the answer is either yes or no. That is natural selection. It doesn't matter what the problem is, be that disease, hunger, being hunted, or anything else. If you have the ability to survive then you were "naturally selected" to survive. If not you were "naturally selected" against. The word is not talking about choices or thinking but rather about individual circumstances. Very well put. I would simply add that all that really matters in evolution is survival until reproducing, since they are the ones who will pass their genes along. Genetic variations that only have bearing on life expectancy and health after child-bearing age don't factor into evolution. (I only point this out because I've seen some ignorant creationists try to point to elderly health failure as alleged evidence against evolution, arguing that evolution should have weeded that out, but in reality that is completely irrelevant to evolution.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Yes evolution is intelligent. That's why the rods and cones in our eyes face the wrong direction and have blood vessels in front of them forcing the brain to filter them out. That's why he have leftover parts (vestigial organs), some being prone to infection. That's why our bodies sometimes malfunction and self destruct with cancer or autoimmune diseases. Even a semi competent human engineer can design something more efficiently and/or with a lower failure rate. It almost seems like we just evolved into our current state chaotically and haphazardly, hmm... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 21, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2018 I want to know why my waste system runs through my recretional areas. Seriously shitty intelligence involved. The Theory of evolution is intelligently thought out... evolution itself, sorry no intelligence behind it apart from when humans use it to get new animal of plant species. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I have read or heard Evolutionists say it is not a "Random process", but it is an inevitable process. A some make it, and some don’t kind of deal. Over long periods of time organisms develop advantages and thus live on, passing their genetic advantages on. This explanation, for me, doesn’t answer my questions on the existences of all things or the diversity and complexity in I can actually see and what I do know of this universe and this planet. Therefore, I believe God is the creator, the intelligent designer. I accept the creation account in Genesis, not as an exhaustive and detailed account, but the story told in a easily understood manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 21, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2018 We learn more about reality every day, but as long as there are some as yet unanswered questions there are many who jump to "god did it" as a place holder answer. Remember when we figured out that the thunder wasn't god bowling and epilepsy wasn't demon possession? Prior to our discoveries such things were attributed to magic. And please don't anger the volcano god! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 37 minutes ago, Rose0101 said: Does it bring you more happiness to believe God is the intelligent designer, or would you be happier knowing that there is no God?...I am happier as a result of faith, but I was not happy when I believed the Bible was the word of God. It made me feel like people were doomed to Eternal destruction. I would much more prefer that there was no God, rather than think that God would form somebody in the womb, just to leave them tortured for all eternity. That belief disgusts me! I don't believe God is that much of a prick! But there are scripture verses that also say God will reconcile all things to himself and that all people will be saved. I’m hilariously happy. How can I not be? I believe, despite all my troubles, that God loves me. The Bible to me in a God infused book and a human infused book. I don’t understand it all and some parts are mysterious, but I know enough to know the future is so bright I almost need to wear my wayfarers all the time. I don’t worry about every person’s final destination, that is between each person and God. I do know, according to scripture God will be fair and just. No one will have an excuse. “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~ C.S. Lewis Yes, it does say God will reconcile all things. I will come back and comment on that verse later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 49 minutes ago, ironhorse said: I have read or heard Evolutionists say it is not a "Random process", but it is an inevitable process. A some make it, and some don’t kind of deal. Over long periods of time organisms develop advantages and thus live on, passing their genetic advantages on. This explanation, for me, doesn’t answer my questions on the existences of all things or the diversity and complexity in I can actually see and what I do know of this universe and this planet. Therefore, I believe God is the creator, the intelligent designer. I accept the creation account in Genesis, not as an exhaustive and detailed account, but the story told in a easily understood manner. Evolution does explain the diversity and complexity of life better than any other option. Choosing to not understand doesn't diminish the explanation. Rejecting science would leave you at the position of "don't know". If you don't accept any explanation that wouldn't automatically mean your invisible friend has magic powers or did anything. Also the creation accounts in Genesis (Chapters 1 and 2 are different accounts) were plagiarized from other, older religions. The original versions of those stories had other gods creating Earth. How could the story become "more true" when it gets stolen and the names changed? Judaism started out as paganism. Judaism was also anti-Christian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 1/20/2018 at 8:15 AM, Rose0101 said: I'm Amazed by how a single cell organism eventually became a creature that had a stub, and over millions of years that stub turned into a wing, and the bones of that animal became hollow to make it Fly. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is awesome, isn't he? On 1/20/2018 at 8:15 AM, Rose0101 said: Evolution seems to be intelligent. Is there a way we can have confidence in this creative power while rejecting Religion and ancient texts? You don't need to go to church to praise Thor's name. On 1/20/2018 at 8:15 AM, Rose0101 said: I'm also amazed at what evolution has given humans. No other animal seems to invent anything new century after century..... Yet humans have the internet, automobiles, cell phones, planes, and spaceships that fly to the moon...why are humans the only animal with technology? Humans have more creative intelligence. On 1/20/2018 at 8:15 AM, Rose0101 said: Also, why are humans the only animal that is ashamed to be naked (with some exceptions)? Children are not ashamed to be naked until we teach them that. While someone might consider it a confirmation of the holy bible that people wear clothes, another common sense reason that people wear clothes is that so people won't be lusting after (or grossed out by ) other people all day long. Clothes also provide protection, especially in cold weather. There's probably other good reasons to wear clothes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, ironhorse said: “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ” ~ C.S. Lewis ......... In the book of C.S. Lewis...it...is...written... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rose0101 said: I praise woden and Thor Oh. I thought you were an authentic Christian believer. All the authentic Christian believers I know spout and seem to venerate bible verses. But I do feel though that someone ought to have whatever beliefs or non-beliefs that work best for them. Welcome back to Ex-c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 21, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2018 2 hours ago, ironhorse said: I have read or heard Evolutionists say it is not a "Random process", but it is an inevitable process. A some make it, and some don’t kind of deal. Over long periods of time organisms develop advantages and thus live on, passing their genetic advantages on. This explanation, for me, doesn’t answer my questions on the existences of all things or the diversity and complexity in I can actually see and what I do know of this universe and this planet. Therefore, I believe God is the creator, the intelligent designer. I accept the creation account in Genesis, not as an exhaustive and detailed account, but the story told in a easily understood manner. And this ladies and gentlemen is a classic logical fallacy - the argument from ignorance. I dont understand x therefore god. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: And this ladies and gentlemen is a classic logical fallacy - the argument from ignorance. I dont understand x therefore god. He accepts the creation account because he's in a fear-based religion. If he rejects the bible then (he feels) his soul could be in jeopardy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Rose0101 said: I reject the Bible. ... I love woden, Thor, Freya, frigg, and Aphrodite. I hate how the Bible creates bigotry towards pagans, homosexuals, and unbelievers. You reject the bible ... but you're an authentic Christian? (I'm just looking at your profile. That's what it says: authentic Christian believer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Just now, Rose0101 said: I'm not Oh ok. Maybe mods could fix your profile then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 2 hours ago, ironhorse said: I have read or heard Evolutionists say it is not a "Random process", but it is an inevitable process. A some make it, and some don’t kind of deal. ... Biological evolution contains many processes. Some are much more random than others. These processes include mutation (many different types), natural selection, genetic drift, sexual selection, horizontal gene transfer, memetics, epigenetics (possibly), among others. For example, germ cell gene mutations caused by radiation (such as cosmic rays) are quite random, however certain structures of the genome are more resistant to mutation from these source than others. Put another way, certain parts of the genome are more likely to be mutated than others by radiation. This process, although quite random, is not completely random. Now take sexual selection. This process is less random and significantly caused by choices of individual organisms involved and made less random still to the extent memetic influences are present. So, as another example, how random was your choice to get married to your wife or to have children? Take a third example, this time involving somatic mutations. This involves cells that are not germ cells destined for inheritance, such as cells in your muscles, bones or lungs. They reproduce asexually, like primitive bacteria do. If I choose to smoke, drink alcohol, consume drugs, not exercise and eat poorly, the probability of somatic mutations is much higher and can result in diseases such as cancer. This result is less random and more based on environment, choice and probability. As to biological evolution being an “inevitable process”, that is missing some items and needs some clarification. Given any randomness, along with less random things, evolutionary processes (note the plural) will proceed towards a variety of results depending on numerous factors. For example, species extinction is a quite common result, as is diversity and formation of new species. Of course, all evolutionary process will cease if the conditions on the planet do not allow them to proceed. If the sun were to become a red giant star and swallow up the Earth, all biological evolutionary processes would cease on Earth. 2 hours ago, ironhorse said: ... Over long periods of time organisms develop advantages and thus live on, passing their genetic advantages on. ... Populations evolve, organisms do not. This accurate information from the theory has been provided to you several times in the past. It is somewhat disappointing that you have not yet incorporated it into your understanding of the theory. 2 hours ago, ironhorse said: ... This explanation, for me, doesn’t answer my questions on the existences of all things or the diversity and complexity in I can actually see and what I do know of this universe and this planet. ... I’m not surprised, since your "explanation" is incomplete and contains errors. Biological evolution only deals with changes in populations of organisms over time and does not address many other things. Again, the accurate limited scope of the theory has been explained to you numerous times. And again, it is somewhat disappointing that you have not yet incorporated it into your understanding of the theory. If you would list a few of these questions you reference it may be possible to address them. However, your historical use of logical fallacies, such as the argument from incredulity (I don’t understand therefore goddidit), or the false dichotomy (I can only choose between this or that…no other choices are available), will be identified but otherwise ignored. 2 hours ago, ironhorse said: ... Therefore, I believe God is the creator, the intelligent designer. I accept the creation account in Genesis, not as an exhaustive and detailed account, but the story told in a easily understood manner. Like here. False dichotomy. There are other choices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 57 minutes ago, Rose0101 said: I'm a Believer who prays to mary n the Saints in heaven, but I'm not an authentic Christian... Most Christians consider me a pagan and an idolater... But I am a believer and a prayerful person You are beginning to repeat yourself. Anyway, this thread was started to discuss evolution. Do you have anything to say about the topic besides the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 21, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2018 "Mary" and "Saints" are inventions of Christianity. The title "Disgruntled and Confused Christian in Denial" would probably be more accurate, but we don't have that title available. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 27 minutes ago, sdelsolray said: You are beginning to repeat yourself. Anyway, this thread was started to discuss evolution. Do you have anything to say about the topic besides the OP? I believe creatures evolve. Leave an orange tiger in the snow , and eventually its ancestors will become white. But does a fish ever become a mammal? That I am not so sure of. I don't see evidence that chimpanzees are still evolving into humans. Some racist people make such claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 30 minutes ago, Rose0101 said: I believe creatures evolve. Leave an orange tiger in the snow , and eventually its ancestors will become white. But does a fish ever become a mammal? That I am not so sure of. ... The biological theory of evolution does not predict, nor is there any empirical evidence supporting the claim that fish evolve(d) into mammals. The theory predicts and the relevant evidence supports the claim that some fish populations evolved into amphibian populations. Amphibians are not mammals. 30 minutes ago, Rose0101 said: ... I don't see evidence that chimpanzees are still evolving into humans. ... And you won't see that evidence. Chimpanzees (genus pan) did not evolve into humans (genus homo). The theory predicts and the relevant evidence supports the claim that chimpanzees and humans have a common ancestor. The two species are evolving on different paths (i.e., no ability to breed together) which diverged about 6 million years ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, Rose0101 said: I believe creatures evolve. Leave an orange tiger in the snow , and eventually its ancestors will become white. But does a fish ever become a mammal? That I am not so sure of. I don't see evidence that chimpanzees are still evolving into humans. Some racist people make such claims. Evolution is a very long and gradual process. You won't see a fish give birth to a mammal. It doesn't work that way. Also, chimps did not evolve into humans, but rather chimps and humans share a common ancestor. You won't be able to see evolution happen by going on a safari. What is known about evolution comes from the fossil record and biology, as well as observations regarding isolated animal populations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 1/20/2018 at 8:15 AM, Rose0101 said: I'm Amazed by how a single cell organism eventually became a creature that had a stub, and over millions of years that stub turned into a wing, and the bones of that animal became hollow to make it Fly. Evolution seems to be intelligent. Is there a way we can have confidence in this creative power while rejecting Religion and ancient texts? I'm also amazed at what evolution has given humans. No other animal seems to invent anything new century after century..... Yet humans have the internet, automobiles, cell phones, planes, and spaceships that fly to the moon...why are humans the only animal with technology? Also, why are humans the only animal that is ashamed to be naked (with some exceptions)? Natural Selection is the prime driver of biological evolution, according to theory. There is an undeniable mountain of evidence to support natural selection if one studies its almost infinite detail. Certainly some details of present theory are wrong, but the breadth of evolutionary theory cannot be denied based upon logic alone, aside from the almost infinite fossil evidence supporting natural selection. What you always end up with are the best suited and most prolific plants and animals for their environment. What one observes is the end results of this understandable process. Although humans are great tool and product makers, other primates have also shown their intelligence by making tools or tasks. Some birds, with their bird brains :), have also created tools for multiple purposes, granted not compared to humans, but with their minuscule brains, a few trained parrots can talk and some have shown to understand what they are saying. A few chimps have learned sign language for communication with humans, and with other chimps that understand the language. Ashamed to be naked is not a smart thing, it is a cultural thing. Clothes in the open environment are a practical thing. Just a couple hundred years ago a number of human cultures in temperate climates, were all nude. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_(chimpanzee) https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/six-talking-apes-48085302/ https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/29/chimp-intelligence-aymu-matsuzawa-kyoto http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2012/05/talking_parakeets_why_do_they_mimic_human_speech_.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dogs-understand-human-language-words-study_us_57c5aa82e4b0cdfc5ac95fa0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now