Christians blaming gays

[Samuel]

I was able to have a nice conversation with my grandma today about how I felt growing up as a closeted gay man amongst religious Christians. There has been this massive fire here in Southern California.  I could see that flames all the way from the coast, one of the first things that came to mind was how a lot of Christians would appropriate this natural disasters to blame one of the groups they disagree with, particularly gays. Maybe not all Christians, but on some level they’re thinking it. They’re thinking sodom and gomorah. It just makes me realize that no matter what happens if I get hurt someday or something bad happens to me, there’s going to be someone in my family or former community whose going to think, that happened to him because he was gay, and then to think it is justified and that they’re the ones who are on god’s side.

 

It’s covert narcissism, because first of all it’s ignorant, and then it comes in the guise of being righteous. And no where in there does Christianity allow for the person to think that there is just something in their own mind and life and experience that they have to re-examine to put themselves on equal footing with a person of a different sexuality. 

 

As as I left my grandma’s house today she said make sure to remember to pray for so and so (though I’ve told her before I’m an atheist, she didn’t seem to believe) but I’ve felt a little less detached from community being part of this group this last week, and I just told her flat out, “I don’t pray grandma” and I meant it, and I felt it stuck a little more. I’m still emotionally coming around to appreciating how to interact and adjust to social norms as an atheist. It’s also my world view as well, not believing that magic help is coming, but learning and discovering how you can and cannot rely on other people and yourself. So many people have prayed for me at times when that was so far from what I needed. These people patted themselves on the back for essentially not being there for me. But also really helping people can be hard or complicated and is worth respecting. The hollowness of prayer is something that I am happy to be someone who can say no thanks to. It’s also sort of an invitation, like, participate in the real world and keep you imagined powers to yourself. Not having this social nicety to hide behind makes you a better person, gets you off your butt, helps you know what you can and cannot do, what you are and are not willing to do, gives you real world experience, and can led you to accept things as they are, not happily sit at home condemning some people to hell without ever meeting them. I suppose looking and experiencing the world as it is, is probably one of the fastest ways to lose your religion. Although for me going deeper into religion was my way out oddly enough. Prayer is one of those things that stops people from facing reality, the reality of other’s  suffering and one’s own limitations(both things which lead a person to treat others with dignity). 

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

11 hours ago, Samuel said:

It’s covert narcissism, because first of all it’s ignorant, and then it comes in the guise of being righteous. And no where in there does Christianity allow for the person to think that there is just something in their own mind and life and experience that they have to re-examine to put themselves on equal footing with a person of a different sexuality. 

OMG It is so nice to hear other people openly acknowledge this. So much of Xianity is saturated with this belligerent narcissism, and people don't address it! Needless to say, you are completely right and I appreciate the perspective you shared!

[florduh]

Fundy Christianity is an exclusive club. They get their pride and power from excluding certain groups. Fuck 'em.

[Wertbag]

Closeted gay and closeted atheist... Which would be harder to come out as and which gets the most negativity? 

[MOHO]

2 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Closeted gay and closeted atheist... Which would be harder to come out as and which gets the most negativity? 

 

I suspect anyone who would discriminate against one of those would discriminate against the other. 

[Samuel]

9 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

I suspect anyone who would discriminate against one of those would discriminate against the other. 

 

Neither have been easy. There are gay churches, and I went to one or two for a bit until I realized, no, it’s not just about being gay, it’s about the beliefs as well. 

[1989]

Christians gotta hold something or someone responsible to explain all the bad shit that keeps happening.  If they didn't then they'd have a god that either didn't care or wasn't in control.  Neither fits their paradigm, so they play the blame game.

[Guest end3]

We can make a case for all of us contributing to less than something perfect.  Homosexuality is just another sin/item on the list. 

[MOHO]

30 minutes ago, end3 said:

We can make a case for all of us contributing to less than something perfect.  Homosexuality is just another sin/item on the list. 

 

Endo,

 

Who is hurt by those with unconventional private lives?

[ConsiderTheSource]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

We can make a case for all of us contributing to less than something perfect.  Homosexuality is just another sin/item on the list. 

 

Please explain how my law abiding daughter, her wife, or any other law abiding LGBT citizen harms you, or anyone else, in any way?

 

Answer: They harm no one.  If they harm no one, nothing they are, or do, can be considered immoral.  

 

What is immoral is anyone or any organization slandering them, or otherwise putting up barriers to their life and happiness.  That's who/what is immoral.

 

 

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, MOHO said:

 

Endo,

 

Who is hurt by those with unconventional private lives?

Just an example....my ex's cousin was a temporary lesbian...to be trendy I believe.  It lasted long enough where they acquired sperm and made their own baby.  The thing is now, the child is very effeminate.  This isn't really the point I was trying to make....but specific to those choices. 

 

A perfect situation is all speculation anyhow.....that if we all follow some set of rules/behaviors, would it help.  Possibly, but love would be the best cliché-like answer that I could tout.  I do however, think some behaviors less attractive to a society.  I truly think this aforementioned child has been affected because he had no male role model.  To what extent and how detrimental it is, I don't know.  I guess it's relative to the "norm".... 

[Guest end3]

6 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 

Please explain how my law abiding daughter, her wife, or any other law abiding LGBT citizen harms you, or anyone else, in any way?

 

Answer: They harm no one.  If they harm no one, nothing they are, or do, can be considered immoral.  

 

What is immoral is anyone or any organization slandering them, or otherwise putting up barriers to their life and happiness.  That's who/what is immoral.

 

 

I just did...thanks.

[ConsiderTheSource]

55 minutes ago, end3 said:

I just did...thanks.

Really?  That's it??  Your odd unsupported speculation is enough to declare the existence of my daughter to be immoral?

 

Not nearly as immoral as the religious organizations and people who insist on declaring my accomplished daughter "less then" for simply existing.  

 

 

[RealityCheck]

[freshstart]

3 hours ago, end3 said:

Just an example....my ex's cousin was a temporary lesbian...to be trendy I believe.  It lasted long enough where they acquired sperm and made their own baby.  The thing is now, the child is very effeminate.  This isn't really the point I was trying to make....but specific to those choices.  

What point are you trying to make, exactly? That being a lesbian is trendy? That being gay is a choice? That lesbians raise boys to be effeminate? Upon what do you base your beliefs (other than personal anecdotal speculations)?

[buffettphan]

3 minutes ago, freshstart said:

What point are you trying to make, exactly? That being a lesbian is trendy? That being gay is a choice? That lesbians raise boys to be effeminate? Upon what do you base your beliefs (other than personal anecdotal speculations)?

 

3 hours ago, end3 said:

Just an example....my ex's cousin was a temporary lesbian...to be trendy I believe.  It lasted long enough where they acquired sperm and made their own baby.  The thing is now, the child is very effeminate.  This isn't really the point I was trying to make....but specific to those choices. 

 

 

 

@end3 -- Remember this is the Rants sub-forum and you cannot bring in any kind of christianese  explanations or justifications.  

[Guest end3]

3 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

Really?  That's it??  Your odd unsupported speculation is enough to declare the existence of my daughter to be immoral?

 

Not nearly as immoral as the religious organizations and people who insist on declaring my accomplished daughter "less then" for simply existing.  

 

 

No, I work off a belief of getting to know the other person.  I have no idea who your daughter is nor her brand of morality.  Ease up there dude....Florduh hit the nail on the head.  FUNDAMENTAL Christians are probably more likely to condemn your daughter than an older Christian.  And, had you read my post, I left it pretty open for the child being "harmed"  with respect to what is the norm.  I am just making real observations.  Yes, I personally think than young man is being harmed by not having a male role model.  You call it how you see it....

 

And you're right.... I thought it odd too to become a lesbian to be cool myself.  And it's "less than", not "less then"...

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, freshstart said:

What point are you trying to make, exactly? That being a lesbian is trendy? That being gay is a choice? That lesbians raise boys to be effeminate? Upon what do you base your beliefs (other than personal anecdotal speculations)?

Truthfully, the point I am making was that my ex's cousin was screwed up.  She made the choice to have a same sex relationship.  Two, yes the child is more effeminate than the norm.  What beliefs are your referring to please.

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, buffettphan said:

 

 

@end3 -- Remember this is the Rants sub-forum and you cannot bring in any kind of christianese  explanations or justifications.  

Look, my explanation was very open and provided a perspective that might help the people here....not harm.  Do with it what you would like. 

[Guest end3]

2 hours ago, RealityCheck said:

Lol, and your definition of "harm" is the correct one I assume.....  In other words, it's ok for gays to believe a certain thing, but if I believe something, it's harm.  I gave you an example of how these two women potentially hurt this child because of their own beliefs.  It wasn't specific to your daughter.  And btw, you are quite defensive for something you believe is right....just sayin.

[freshstart]

6 minutes ago, end3 said:

Truthfully, the point I am making was that my ex's cousin was screwed up.  She made the choice to have a same sex relationship.  Two, yes the child is more effeminate than the norm.  What beliefs are your referring to please. 

 

12 minutes ago, end3 said:

I work off a belief of getting to know the other person. 

 

I guess I am curious as to how you came to  judge your ex's cousin as "screwed up." I am assuming from the second statement above that you have come to know her (the cousin) quite well before coming to this conclusion. I don't understand the relevance between lesbianism and  . . .what? Raising a child that becomes effeminate? Bad parenting? It seems you are drawing correlations or is it my imagination?

[1989]

16 minutes ago, end3 said:

Truthfully, the point I am making was that my ex's cousin was screwed up.  She made the choice to have a same sex relationship.  Two, yes the child is more effeminate than the norm.  What beliefs are your referring to please.

 

I was raised by a single mother and had no male influence in my life.  The only other constant role models in my life were women.  There have been consequences for me having been raised that way, but that's the luck of the parental draw.  If two men adopted a child would that child be more masculine?  Besides, there are messed up children hailing from straight homes who would be golden if their biggest problem was being a little effeminate.  You don't pick your parents or your early childhood role-models, but because you're family is one way or another isn't necessarily a death trap for the child.

[Guest end3]

11 minutes ago, freshstart said:

 

 

I guess I am curious as to how you came to  judge your ex's cousin as "screwed up." I am assuming from the second statement above that you have come to know her (the cousin) quite well before coming to this conclusion. I don't understand the relevance between lesbianism and  . . .what? Raising a child that becomes effeminate? Bad parenting? It seems you are drawing correlations or is it my imagination?

I haven't pulled the recent research, but thinking the more recent stuff isn't favorable.  1989 in the last post even said "there have been consequences".  What I remember of childhood is children are pretty rough on each other....especially effeminate boys.  It seem reasonable that the two gay women vs. conventional parents are the cause.  Children pick up the qualities they are raised with.....  Yes, I'm drawing correlations.

[Guest end3]

13 minutes ago, 1989 said:

 

I was raised by a single mother and had no male influence in my life.  The only other constant role models in my life were women.  There have been consequences for me having been raised that way, but that's the luck of the parental draw.  If two men adopted a child would that child be more masculine?  Besides, there are messed up children hailing from straight homes who would be golden if their biggest problem was being a little effeminate.  You don't pick your parents or your early childhood role-models, but because you're family is one way or another isn't necessarily a death trap for the child.

Y'all are too sensitive to this issue because it about being critical of Christians and homosexuality.  If you go reread my post, I left it open for any behavior, that homosexuality was just one thing of many, that may potentially cause "harm". 

[ConsiderTheSource]

24 minutes ago, end3 said:

Lol, and your definition of "harm" is the correct one I assume.....  In other words, it's ok for gays to believe a certain thing, but if I believe something, it's harm.  I gave you an example of how these two women potentially hurt this child because of their own beliefs.  It wasn't specific to your daughter.  And btw, you are quite defensive for something you believe is right....just sayin.

 

Um, Reality Check is not me.  Dont think RC mentioned a daughter.

 

And, yes, when it comes to my daughter I am quite defensive.  I stand up for reality and facts regarding her because she, and her LGBT community cause zero harm to anyone else.  But groups, and their followers, 97% of them religious insist on making them "less than".  I am sick of it.  All of it.  My daughter is NOT "an abomination".  She is not evil. She, and her wife are loving, caring and accomplished.  Her PhD in Cellular and Molecular Biology, neuroscience emphasis, was formally conferred just 4 days ago.  Her wife is a medical school student and future MD.  They volunteer and contribute back to the community.  They are far far far from "less than".  Yet, my daughter lost a job in Indiana due her LGBT status.  I have seen people "go ballistic" when they are simply holding hands.  Folks judge them only in what their church tells them.  They never seek out LGBT folks to get to know them.  They dont seek out their parents....often they avoid them.

 

All of this effort against folks with near term zero impact on the lives of others is sickening.  The bottom line for these folks is that their delusional religion is more important than basic respect for these two, and those like them.  Keep your delusions.  Just dont impose them on others outside of your "faith".  Dont make laws and rules imposing your club rules onto others.  Dont impose "less than" on anyone without overwhelming evidence.