The Simple and Truthful Plan

[Edgarcito]

7 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Do you have an example of God providing guidance? Or Grace? 

Jesus?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Jesus?

Do you have any evidence that jesus existed as described in the scripture?

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Jesus?

 

I never see  him around. Do you?

 

 

[Aqualung]

18 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

I never see  him around. Do you?

 

 

I found him! he really does exist! Praise the Lord!

[◊ Weezer ◊]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Jesus?

 

I studied him fairly extensively, read the Gnostic Gospels, and decided he MAY have existed.   And I very much appreciate the statement attributed to him about loving neighbor as self.  And IF he existed I think he probanly believed he was the son of god because he was conditioned to believe that.  But he was made into something he wasn't by the early church who slyly fabricated the Christian myth as they killed off those who did not agree with them.  They knew how to manipulate the masses, and built an extremely powerful institution that became very corrupt and abusive during the middle ages.  I am willing to bet my soul that the New Testament, and the idea of the trinity, the plan, etc all came from them.  Not God.   

 

Loving neighbor as self is good guidance for mankind, but I cannot believe it came directly from "god" to Jesus, because after studying the history of religions, I don't believe the God of the Bible, or any other religion I have studied, actually exists.  I used to believe as you do, but finally decided that the "simple and truthful plan" came to us through mortal men that make up what is now the Catholic church.

 

Wow! I didn't mean to write all that, but when I got started, i couldn't stop.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I might add that for me I don't need an infallable God to tell me that loving others is the right thing to do.  It is logical, rational thinking.  What goes around, comes around.  Good karma.  In mankind's best interest.  But the doctrine of original sin tries to undermine our faith in our ability to think and reason for ourselves, and make us depend on ancient myths.  Yes, there are some "truths" contained in the bible if you want to pick them out.  But there is also a lot of (putting it in the kindest words I can) inconsistant myth.

[WalterP]

On 7/2/2020 at 7:20 PM, WalterP said:

 

Some points and questions for you, Edgarcito.

 

1.

If you were god it would be within your power to give your creation sufficient understanding to comprehend whatever you wanted them to understand.

 

2.

If you were god you'd have foreknown that leaving your creations short on understanding would cause them to reach false conclusions.

 

3.

So, why would you then threaten and ultimately punish your creations for reaching the false conclusions that you foreknew they would arrive at?

 

4.

What midniterider said.  Please cite examples.

 

5.

No. The survival of the fittest has nothing to do with grace.  The nearest evolution will get you to that is altruism and even that is hotly debated.  

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2010.427

 

6.

Furthermore, evolution has no overarching plan, objective or goal.  It is simply a way that organisms react to their environments.  If you invoke evolution then you can't use it to argue for some kind of divine plan.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Care to apply your thinking to questions 1,2,3,5 and 6 please, Edgarcito?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[WalterP]

My point is we have no way of knowing what the right choice is.  We would have to have an understanding of what was meant for our lives.  "Now this is eternal life, that you may know Jesus and God".  They had no reference point for what was successful and what was not. 

 

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Rethinking....it makes sense to me that if I were a guiding God, knowing my creation didn't completely understand, that I would provide guidance and grace.  And across humanity, this is largely what we observe.  Certainly we could make a case through evolution....."survival means love and grace"....so the group continues to eat.  Good guess.

 

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Edgarcito, I'd like to direct your attention to what's going on over here.

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/83312-blessing-is-not-being-happy/?tab=comments#comment-1225872

 

Weezer and I are respectfully disagreeing on whether Christians are saved by faith alone or by works.

 

I've cited James 2 and he's cited Ephesians 2.

 

Both arguments are theologically sound, but they both cannot be true.  They contradict each other.

 

 

 

You say that we have no way of knowing the right choices.  No understanding of god's plan for us.  No reference points to go on.

 

 

 

So then why does this guiding god of yours give contradictory messages to his followers in his holy book?

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

4 hours ago, WalterP said:

 

Weezer and I are respectfully disagreeing on whether Christians are saved by faith alone or by works.

 

Not sure I am following you with this statement.  But my thinking is sometimes concrete.  I don't think anyone needs saving from eternal damnation.  I'm saying mankind benefits from loving one another. 

 

We are "benefited" by both----- faith in love, and carrying it out in our actions.  And that is how I interpreted salvation as a Christian.  I always thought it strange that people tried to pin "salvation" to one or the other. 

[WalterP]

14 hours ago, Weezer said:

Not sure I am following you with this statement.  But my thinking is sometimes concrete.  I don't think anyone needs saving from eternal damnation.  I'm saying mankind benefits from loving one another. 

 

We are "benefited" by both----- faith in love, and carrying it out in our actions.  And that is how I interpreted salvation as a Christian.  I always thought it strange that people tried to pin "salvation" to one or the other. 

 

And there you have it, Weezer.

 

Your quote above is how you interpreted salvation as a Christian.  My take on James is how I interpreted salvation as a Christian. 

 

As I've said to Edgarcito, both of our interpretations are founded in scripture yet they contradict each other.  

 

There appears to be no clear guidance coming from god on this issue.

 

 

(Are you paying attention, Edgarcito?)

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Sounds to me like trying to split hairs.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, Weezer said:

Sounds to me like trying to split hairs.

I disagree.  There is s huge difference between salvation by grace through faith and salvation by faith through works.  So huge, in fact, that if we can be saved through works, then faith is not necessary.  And if we can be saved by faith alone, then there is no motivation for doing good.  These two concepts can become mutually exclusive. 

 

My church attempted to marry the two contradictory concepts by teaching that we were saved through faith but would be judged according to our works.  There would be a lesser reward in heaven for people who only used their faith to volunteer at soup kitchens and battered women's shelters; but bigly rewards for people who used their faith to vote Republican and use the N-word in public.

 

This is really something an omniscient god should have clarified, if he wanted us to understand.

[WalterP]

Weezer,

 

The essential point that I'm directing in Edgarcito's direction is that scripture itself and history clearly demonstrate that, contrary to Edgarcito's claim, god has not given clear guidance.

 

You and I both made eloquent Bible-based arguments for our differing positions - yet the issue remains unresolved. God has not given the church guidance on this important matter.

 

Do we have free will of does god predestine us to heaven or hell?  Again, vitally important.  Again, both positions backed up by scripture.  Again, where's god's guidance?

 

Does god still give Christians the gifts of the spirit or did he withdraw the spirit after Bible times?  Some Christians cannot agree on this.  Where's god guidance?

 

Are the dead judged once they die or do we all sleep until Judgement Day, when we are all judged en masse?  Christians disagree, still waiting on god's guidance. 

 

Once-saved-always-saved or is it possible to reject Jesus?  (Very pertinent to this forum!)  Where's god guidance on this?

 

What about the books of Tobit, Judith, Baruch and so on?  Canonical or not?  Why hasn't god guided his sheep?

 

Edgarcito's guiding god seems to be totally silent. Or non-existent.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Pre-, post-, or a-millenial?  lord jesus, please tell us which it is.

[WalterP]

Do you have an example of God providing guidance? Or Grace? 

Edgarcito...

 

Jesus?

 

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Where were you born and raised, Edgarcito?

 

 

The Punjab?  Then you would have probably answered midniterider's question with... Guru Nanak.

 

Tel Aviv?  Then you have probably answered with... Moses.

 

The Hejaz? Then you'd probably have answered with... Mohammed.

 

Uttar Pradesh?  Then you have probably answered with... Rishabhanatha.

 

Chiang Mai?  Then you'd have probably answered with... Siddhattha Gautama.

 

The Iranian province of Fars?  Then you'd probably have answered with... Siyyid Ali Muhammad Shirazi.

 

The Konkan coast? Then you'd probably have answered with... Zoroaster.

 

 

So, maybe where you were born and raised often determines who you consider to be God and how he guides us?

 

 

Walter.

 

[florduh]

On 7/3/2020 at 12:27 AM, Weezer said:

Wow! I didn't mean to write all that, but when I got started, i couldn't stop.

Maybe you were inspired by God.

[Myrkhoos]

The fact that I do not know the future of my actions does not mean I act blindly. I rely on incomplete evidence, yes. But whose fault is it? That I have incomplete evidence? Luther and Calvin nailed it. GOD. Our will is weak and our mind is dark because HE wants and he IS the only one that can CURE us. 

 

God acts like a parent that intentionally cripples their child by amputating their legs, then gives a wheelchair and expects gratitude. What a load of bunk. Christianity in its usual presentations , fails on three levels - it does not correspond to observable reality, it is incoherent and contradicts itself and is socially incapable of functioning.

       For the last part you might argue that christian societies existed for thousands of years. I would say to really study how Christian they actually were, and to see that, actually, without the ability for "sin" and creative intepretation, it is impossible to live like that. It is pathologcal altruism and egoism in the same time. Even now, most Christians I know do not have even the basic ideas of their faith. I doubt things were much different after Chrristianity became an official religion. By the way I said in its usual presentation because I do not know every form of theology of every sect. 

 

If I were to think there is a supreme being, what the Bible and the Koran literally about him I think is downright blasphemous. That petty, vengeful, bloodthirsthy egomaniac tyrand and his world mending mind games, like a more powerful version of L Ron Hubbard. He is as deserving of worship as Hitler, Stalin and Mao, all who liked to be worshipped and chastised anyone that refused. Even less deserving actually.

 

You want another simple plan? We have problems. The Jews did it. Just kill the Jews. Sounds so elegant, doesn't it?

[AntiChrist]

On 6/30/2020 at 5:08 AM, Edgarcito said:

Please explain how this simple plan is not truthful.

 

We are not omniscient, therefore it's impossible to always act accordingly that we ultimately benefit others.

In light of this, Jesus says know me, as I am one with God/Love....so that you might better act on others.

Thirdly, I'm prompting you with the right choice...because I'm not dead, I'm alive.

And lastly, when you fail to act correctly, there will be grace for you.

 

So isn't this what we really strive to do daily....say on a good day? 

Act with loving intent through faith because ultimately we don't know the exact answer?  Hoping we don't screw up their life by our stupidity?

I give up trying to think of how to answer your post.

[Edgarcito]

7 hours ago, EnaUnited said:

I give up trying to think of how to answer your post.

Let's break it down more simply.

1) We are not omniscient and can not act in that respect.

2) Humanity appears to keep moving and self correcting towards morality...i.e. the knowledge of love.

3) In a sense, love is alive and inherent, innate, and active.

4) Outside of omniscience, grace is all we have when we are not in line with this constant.

 

I'm sure we can propose that it's all relegated matter filling the space time continuum in some form on a floating planet supported by turtles., but who really want's to.....no hope.

 

Was thinking about this the other day about discussing with this group here.  And outside of the discussion, it's seemed rather a decent choice for me to hope there is an afterlife where the things that we get wrong now are righted....that we experience that purity.  I have such love for my children, that I don't wish to do harm, and hope that our time together is not limited to the physical on earth.  It's sad to me, that our system makes a place for Ex-people.

[midniterider]

48 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Let's break it down more simply.

1) We are not omniscient and can not act in that respect.

2) Humanity appears to keep moving and self correcting towards morality...i.e. the knowledge of love.

3) In a sense, love is alive and inherent, innate, and active.

4) Outside of omniscience, grace is all we have when we are not in line with this constant.

 

I'm sure we can propose that it's all relegated matter filling the space time continuum in some form on a floating planet supported by turtles., but who really want's to.....no hope.

 

Was thinking about this the other day about discussing with this group here.  And outside of the discussion, it's seemed rather a decent choice for me to hope there is an afterlife where the things that we get wrong now are righted....that we experience that purity.  I have such love for my children, that I don't wish to do harm, and hope that our time together is not limited to the physical on earth.  It's sad to me, that our system makes a place for Ex-people.

 

3. Love might be alive as a groupthink or thoughtform created by humanity. 

 

I would settle for reincarnation or some non-Abrahamic afterlife. But if there isn't an afterlife, meh, whatever. I love my adult children, but they have their own lives. I would not want to live with them in Christian heaven forever. Same goes for my parents. But of course my parents raised me to be ok with never seeing them again at some point. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

1) We are not omniscient and can not act in that respect.

The same appears to be true for god/jesus

 

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

2) Humanity appears to keep moving and self correcting towards morality...i.e. the knowledge of love.

Please support this claim.

 

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

3) In a sense, love is alive and inherent, innate, and active.

In what sense?

 

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

4) Outside of omniscience, grace is all we have when we are not in line with this constant.

Non-sequitur.  

[AntiChrist]

10 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Let's break it down more simply.

1) We are not omniscient and can not act in that respect.

2) Humanity appears to keep moving and self correcting towards morality...i.e. the knowledge of love.

3) In a sense, love is alive and inherent, innate, and active.

4) Outside of omniscience, grace is all we have when we are not in line with this constant.

 

I'm sure we can propose that it's all relegated matter filling the space time continuum in some form on a floating planet supported by turtles., but who really want's to.....no hope.

 

Was thinking about this the other day about discussing with this group here.  And outside of the discussion, it's seemed rather a decent choice for me to hope there is an afterlife where the things that we get wrong now are righted....that we experience that purity.  I have such love for my children, that I don't wish to do harm, and hope that our time together is not limited to the physical on earth.  It's sad to me, that our system makes a place for Ex-people.

No, I still can't figure out what to say.

[WalterP]

This is very naughty, Edgarcito.

 

You began this thread on June 29, proposing a set of conditions that you didn't make good on with examples and evidence.

 

The next day, in response to midniterider, you shifted the goalposts.

 

When I pointed this out to you, you wrote... Yes, you're right....I need to decide how I want to continue this....thanks.

 

On July 2 you posted your rethinking on the matter.

 

When midniterider asked you for examples you answered him with... Jesus?

 

But you avoided answered the six points I put to you on the same day.

 

After that you avoided questions from the RedNeckProfessor, midniterider and myself and my query wasn't even a new one.  It was a re-post of those six earlier points for your attention.

 

I then made another post for your attention on July 6, which you still haven't addressed.

 

Two days ago Antichrist wrote... I give up trying to think of how to answer your post.

 

You answered him on the same day, this time with another re-think and a new set of conditions that you haven't supported with any evidence or examples.

 

 

 

 

I don't mind you dodging questions, shifting the goalposts and failing to support your claims and assertions.

 

From what I've seen, that's pretty much normal Christian behaviour in many forums.

 

But, for my future guidance, I now have to ask you a further question.

 

Do you want me to continue to point out your failings like this or would you prefer me to just keep asking you questions, even though you don't answer most of them?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter. 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

7 hours ago, WalterP said:

This is very naughty, Edgarcito.

 

You began this thread on June 29, proposing a set of conditions that you didn't make good on with examples and evidence.

 

The next day, in response to midniterider, you shifted the goalposts.

 

When I pointed this out to you, you wrote... Yes, you're right....I need to decide how I want to continue this....thanks.

 

On July 2 you posted your rethinking on the matter.

 

When midniterider asked you for examples you answered him with... Jesus?

 

But you avoided answered the six points I put to you on the same day.

 

After that you avoided questions from the RedNeckProfessor, midniterider and myself and my query wasn't even a new one.  It was a re-post of those six earlier points for your attention.

 

I then made another post for your attention on July 6, which you still haven't addressed.

 

Two days ago Antichrist wrote... I give up trying to think of how to answer your post.

 

You answered him on the same day, this time with another re-think and a new set of conditions that you haven't supported with any evidence or examples.

 

 

 

 

I don't mind you dodging questions, shifting the goalposts and failing to support your claims and assertions.

 

From what I've seen, that's pretty much normal Christian behaviour in many forums.

 

But, for my future guidance, I now have to ask you a further question.

 

Do you want me to continue to point out your failings like this or would you prefer me to just keep asking you questions, even though you don't answer most of them?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter. 

 

 

 

Respond if you feel like contributing. 

 

Thank you.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Respond if you feel like contributing. 

 

Thank you.

Umm... he is responding and he is attempting to contribute.  The very point Walt is making here is that you are not responding... or, rather, that you are being disingenuously selective in your responses.  Straighten up now, son.  Y'hear?