midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Which is my point...I'm not a Biblical scholar by any means, but at one point was the law not given to a group of people that didn't understand there ever was a dividing line? Why is it so egregious that God give a line to His creation that they may forevermore be holy and have eternal life. Why fuck with your creation if you 'love' it? Maybe if I see a rattlesnake I will throw doggy treats near it to see if my dog (who doesn't know any better) will try to get them. Then blame my dog for being stupid. Is it it so egregious that I, with more intelligence , tested my dog's smarts... why should I be arrested for cruelty to animals? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, midniterider said: If you started a job and some guy named Fred says "Never press this big red button or all hell will break loose... " then walks away...so you ask your coworkers who Fred is and they say "I dont know..." nor do they have an answer about the button, this would eventually be a worker's compensation claim and OSHA violation. I think Adam and Eve need a good lawyer. No, Fred gave instructions that lead to life, no harm. The coworker in our case gave instructions about the button and Fred that lead to death. Each of you would want to hang with the coworker than Fred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, midniterider said: Why fuck with your creation if you 'love' it? Maybe if I see a rattlesnake I will throw doggy treats near it to see if my dog (who doesn't know any better) will try to get them. Then blame my dog for being stupid. Is it it so egregious that I, with more intelligence , tested my dog's smarts... why should I be arrested for cruelty to animals? Now you are saying that A&E had understanding of treats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Now you are saying that A&E had understanding of treats? I should say "dont eat the treats" to my dog. And 'stay away from the rattlesnake'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 Just now, midniterider said: I should say "dont eat the treats" to my dog. And 'stay away from the rattlesnake'. There is a difference in what you are describing. You are talking out of both sides. You're saying that the dog was attracted to the treats but Eve was not enticed by the snake. I'll be back....thinks to do, but you must be drinking or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 27, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: thinks to do, Nice Freudian slip, there, Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: Which is my point...I'm not a Biblical scholar by any means, but at one point was the law not given to a group of people that didn't understand there ever was a dividing line? Why is it so egregious that God give a line to His creation that they may forevermore be holy and have eternal life. You've got it dead wrong, Edgarcito. Nothing god did or could do after he cast Adam and Eve out of the garden can right the wrong (evil) he did to them then. He shouldn't have done evil in the first place. By doing it he demonstrated that he was and is... evil. Giving the Israelites his law generations later doesn't right this evil because people were still dying from the curse he placed on Adam and Eve and all their descendants. That curse should never have been placed at all because Adam and Eve were innocent of all wrongdoing. Nor does sending Jesus to die on the cross, thousands of years later, because people were still dying from god's curse and nobody should have died at all. God was the evildoer in Eden, not Adam nor Eve. Also, let's not forget that Jesus isn't some pure and innocent, uninvolved party to what went down in Eden. You can't split off one third of the Trinity from the evildoing they did to Adam and Eve. Jesus was there. John 10 : 30. "I and the Father are One." So, Yes. It’s totally egregious and unforgivable and devious and evil and wickedly calculating of god to pretend that he is holy and good and is freely offering his grace and eternal life when he should never have cursed anyone with death. He should never have cursed Adam and Eve for failing a test he ensured that they could never pass. He should never have set up such an entrapment. Doing that is the height of premeditated, sadistic cruelty. Inflicting pain and death on two innocents. Egregious to the max, Edgarcito. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 29 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: There is a difference in what you are describing. You are talking out of both sides. You're saying that the dog was attracted to the treats but Eve was not enticed by the snake. I'll be back....thinks to do, but you must be drinking or something. The rattlesnake is different in my illustration. lets replace my rattlesnake with a puddle of antifreeze...or maybe a high voltage line. No drinking today. Not defending imaginary beings either. bwahah! Alright, catch you later, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 22 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Think it more an observation that offers a different approach to the pat argument. We can look at what God offers in the garden vs what the snake offers and see a stark difference in the approach. ......do this and or you will die vs. deceit, jealousy, and death. Demonstrates our struggle with sin. Just hadn't noticed the type/pattern in the garden.... But I thought it worthy telling you bastards that you're still wrong....lol. What was the point of god warning Adam about death when he doesn't know or understand what it is? I'll add to what I said before about Adam and Eve not understanding the good or evil consequences of their actions. They also couldn't have understood what god's punishment would be if they disobeyed him. 'But they should have just obeyed without thinking, knowing or understanding!' sez Edgarcito. Yeah, like robots. Seriously, are you suggesting that god wanted his children to obey him like robots? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted March 27, 2021 Moderator Share Posted March 27, 2021 This is not hard to understand. It's a creation myth, that's it. And it's not exceptionally well thought out or well written. It's just a creation myth from the near east comparable to similar near eastern creation myths of the time and place. That's it. End of mystery. 36 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: There is a difference in what you are describing. You are talking out of both sides. You're saying that the dog was attracted to the treats but Eve was not enticed by the snake. I'll be back....thinks to do, but you must be drinking or something. It's only hard to understand if someone refuses to take a close look and an objective approach. The myth is silly. In all of the myriad ways we keep teasing out every time the topic comes up, over and over again. Again, Adam, Eve, talking serpent, the "gods," and every bit of the creation myth is simply a narrative that never made any logical sense to begin with, ever. Where everyone who tangles with it goes wrong is to try and twist it into something that makes sense against varieties of logic that apply to today's standards. Everyone that has come here with a hard-on for Genesis lately fails at that foundational level - alleging that Genesis works with today's science or anything that has to do with contemporary thinking. It didn't. None of it makes any sense. Because it's a creation myth and not representative of physical reality. To get into what the gods may have meant and what adam thought of this or that is always besides the point. It's a myth. It won't make sense. It's not literally true and can't have any bearing on what is actually true about our existence. These are the cold hard facts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 Edgarcito, You are trying and failing to defend the indefensible and to excuse the inexcusable. Scripture is what it is and says what it says. No amount of wishful thinking, second guessing or creative re-imagining on your part can undo what Genesis actually says. The way god wronged his children from get go by making them incomplete. The way he wronged them by giving them a command they couldn't understand. The way he wronged them again by warning them about a penalty they couldn't understand either. The way he punished them for failing a test he foreknew they could never pass. Btw, which book is it that you're reading when you talk about the garden of Eden? It can't be bible because if you did read it as it's written then you'd see just how evil god was towards Adam and Eve. Walter. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 I am glad that I no longer have to try to make some bullshit bible story palatable for my brain. Seeing all of the crazy ideas from Christians over the years, if Jesus said in the Bible that "2 + 2 = 5" then there would be a Christian here trying to convince us of 5. I'm glad that I no longer have to buy into illogical nonsense nor think in silly ways so my deity knows I'm on his side. I just cant do that. I dont think a God would ask his people to think in a retarded fashion. And I'm not calling anyone here mentally deficient, just that church culture teaches people to think in a retarded fashion or fear His wrath. And it makes me angry. Still no alcohol. Or drugs. Maybe some pot at bedtime tho. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 27, 2021 Share Posted March 27, 2021 What's kind of scary about the bible (and church), Walter, is my failure to analyze the Adam and Eve story or any of the other stories , while I was a Christian. I was just expected to say, "Praise God!" regarding every passage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 27, 2021 Author Share Posted March 27, 2021 53 minutes ago, WalterP said: You've got it dead wrong, Edgarcito. Nothing god did or could do after he cast Adam and Eve out of the garden can right the wrong (evil) he did to them then. He shouldn't have done evil in the first place. By doing it he demonstrated that he was and is... evil. Giving the Israelites his law generations later doesn't right this evil because people were still dying from the curse he placed on Adam and Eve and all their descendants. That curse should never have been placed at all because Adam and Eve were innocent of all wrongdoing. Nor does sending Jesus to die on the cross, thousands of years later, because people were still dying from god's curse and nobody should have died at all. God was the evildoer in Eden, not Adam nor Eve. Also, let's not forget that Jesus isn't some pure and innocent, uninvolved party to what went down in Eden. You can't split off one third of the Trinity from the evildoing they did to Adam and Eve. Jesus was there. John 10 : 30. "I and the Father are One." So, Yes. It’s totally egregious and unforgivable and devious and evil and wickedly calculating of god to pretend that he is holy and good and is freely offering his grace and eternal life when he should never have cursed anyone with death. He should never have cursed Adam and Eve for failing a test he ensured that they could never pass. He should never have set up such an entrapment. Doing that is the height of premeditated, sadistic cruelty. Inflicting pain and death on two innocents. Egregious to the max, Edgarcito. Walter. So you are saying anyone who has chosen to procreate were are are evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 On 3/27/2021 at 11:50 PM, Edgarcito said: So you are saying anyone who has chosen to procreate were are are evil? Procreation has nothing to do with it, Edagrcito. God's cursed Adam and Eve to their faces, inflicting death upon them. But since (according to scripture) all humans descend from Adam and Eve, everyone has inherited god's curse of death. 1 Corinthians 15 : 20 & 21. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. Death comes to all humans through Adam. But only because god entrapping him and his wife in a test they could never pass and only fail. Which is, of course, an evil thing to do. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterP Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 22 minutes ago, midniterider said: What's kind of scary about the bible (and church), Walter, is my failure to analyze the Adam and Eve story or any of the other stories , while I was a Christian. I was just expected to say, "Praise God!" regarding every passage. Me too. But don't beat yourself up, midniterider. We escaped the madness. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v__a__s__t Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, WalterP said: What was the point of god warning Adam about death when he doesn't know or understand what it is? I'll add to what I said before about Adam and Eve not understanding the good or evil consequences of their actions. They also couldn't have understood what god's punishment would be if they disobeyed him. 'But they should have just obeyed without thinking, knowing or understanding!' sez Edgarcito. Yeah, like robots. Seriously, are you suggesting that god wanted his children to obey him like robots? not like robots. more like children. parents do this every day with their children -- tell them what to do, because they know more than the child. the child doesn't have to understand why the parent says to not touch the stove to listen and obey. they just have to believe or trust their parents maybe or listen to them. if they do touch the stove, when it's hot, they soon, if in normal health find out that their parents were warning them correctly and with good reason. this is very easy to understand. why are you all arguing all day about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 28, 2021 Author Share Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, WalterP said: Procreation has nothing to do with it, Edagrcito. God's cursed Adam and Eve to their faces, inflicting death upon them. But since (according to scripture) all humans descend from Adam and Eve, everyone has inherited god's curse of death. 1 Corinthians 15 : 20 & 21. 20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. Death comes to all humans through Adam. But only because god tricked him and his wife, entrapping them in a test they could never pass and only fail. Which is, of course, an evil thing to do. Walter. Sure it does. If a person chooses to procreate then they are introducing a child to circumstances that can kill them. Are these people automatically evil? And I don’t see much difference describing raising the human race vs describing an individual. Probably more accurate describing the former. Vast’s statement seems reasonable.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 28, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: If a person chooses to procreate then they are introducing a child to circumstances that can kill them. Are these people automatically evil? And I don’t see much difference describing raising the human race vs describing an individual. Probably more accurate describing the former. The difference is people procreate and do the best they can in a world they didn't make, but the God character is the self described author of evil. The myth needs some more work, I'd say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 On 3/26/2021 at 8:10 PM, Edgarcito said: But I thought it worthy telling you bastards that you're still wrong....lol. Ahhh, the language of a true christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted March 28, 2021 Author Share Posted March 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Weezer said: Ahhh, the language of a true christian. Everyone’s a bastard in Tx Wheezy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 2 hours ago, v__a__s__t said: not like robots. more like children. parents do this every day with their children -- tell them what to do, because they know more than the child. the child doesn't have to understand why the parent says to not touch the stove to listen and obey. they just have to believe or trust their parents maybe or listen to them. if they do touch the stove, when it's hot, they soon, if in normal health find out that their parents were warning them correctly and with good reason. this is very easy to understand. why are you all arguing all day about this? I wouldnt want to have to tell a social worker, "I told Johnny not to touch the stove! Then I left the room to watch the game...." I would still probably go to jail and lose my children. A human parent says, "Dont touch that stove!" because they dont want their kid to burn. It's not a "test" to see if the kid follows some arrogant turd's orders like in the Adam and Eve story. Because good parents arent psychos they will restrain the kid or remove them from the kitchen or do whatever is within their power to keep their kid from getting burned. BibleGod on the other hand admonishes the child, turns the burner on high, and leaves the room with an evil grin. Ed brought it up so I guess that's why we are rehashing this. edited. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 Funny that vast chose the "listen to me or burn" scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, midniterider said: Funny that vast chose the "listen to me or burn" scenario. And it is not just a momentary burn that will heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Everyone’s a bastard in Tx Wheezy... I won't argue with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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