Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 25, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2022 18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: No, logically, we wouldn't want to use the logic Eve used to get removed from the garden. But for some reason, each of you still thinks logic is the way to go. Logically, it's not. <See Heb 11> Why do you choose that. Prof says so he can know now. You have yet to demonstrate that what Eve used was logic, Ed. Prove your claim. Define the A, B, and C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 25, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2022 20 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Prof says so he can know now. This is another lie. A clear misrepresentation of my position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: You have yet to demonstrate that what Eve used was logic, Ed. Prove your claim. Define the A, B, and C. Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Her mind reasoned it. rea·son·ing [ˈrēz(ə)niNG] NOUN the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way: "he explained the reasoning behind his decision at a media conference" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 25, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2022 23 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: Yes the serpent had a logical argument that she followed. So am i to understand. That this is your way of proving that blind faith and obedience is better than following logic? Because Eve followed the serpents logic and it led to sin passing upon all man. Am I following you there? DB No. The serpent did not have a logical argument. Nor did Eve follow any kind of logic in making her decision. Look at the text: 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (This was an appeal to Eve's Pride, which is directly tied to emotion) 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes (this was a subjective, emotional response to the physical appearance of the fruit), and a tree to be desired to make one wise ( desire, a direct emotion), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. So, the entire event, from the serpent's initial appeal to Eve's eventual response driven entirely by emotion, not logic, not reasoning at any time. Ed's claim that Eve used any kind of logic or reasoning is simply false; and that is why he refuses to even make an attempt to support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 25, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Her mind reasoned it. No. Her mind did not. There is nothing indicative of reasoning in the text; but the text is rich in emotional appeal and response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No. The serpent did not have a logical argument. Nor did Eve follow any kind of logic in making her decision. Look at the text: 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (This was an appeal to Eve's Pride, which is directly tied to emotion) 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes (this was a subjective, emotional response to the physical appearance of the fruit), and a tree to be desired to make one wise ( desire, a direct emotion), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. So, the entire event, from the serpent's initial appeal to Eve's eventual response driven entirely by emotion, not logic, not reasoning at any time. Ed's claim that Eve used any kind of logic or reasoning is simply false; and that is why he refuses to even make an attempt to support it. Then by god, you sir, define the physiology between emotion and logic via reasoning, how they are independent of each other or shut the hell up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Do we have a deal, Ed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. I dunno @TheRedneckProfessor the serpent lied. But it does look like she reasoned within herself. He mentioned how God had told her she could eat of any tree. And assured her she wouldn't die. So eve did have two stories to think about. 1. God told them not to eat of it because they would surely die. 2. The serpent said they wouldn't die. But that god didn't want them to because then they would know good and evil just like him. But even is she did see logic in the snakes argument. That doesnt mean that she had the ability to know that the decision was wrong. Which I thought was the original argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: Do we have a deal, Ed? No yet please sir....let me please pay attention to this front and then we will. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 25, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2022 15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Then by god, you sir, define the physiology between emotion and logic via reasoning, how they are independent of each other or shut the hell up. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 25, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: But even is she did see logic in the snakes argument. That doesnt mean that she had the ability to know that the decision was wrong. Which I thought was the original argument. I'm willing to concede that there may have been some level of reasoning involved on Eve's part. But it was a very limited reasoning based largely on emotion. Even allowing for this concession, she could not have used logic. Appeals to emotion are considered a logical fallacy for a reason. My very next point was going to be that she could not have had the reasoning faculty necessary to understand the implications of her decision as she did not yet know the difference between good and evil. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I'm willing to concede that there may have been some level of reasoning involved on Eve's part. But it was a very limited reasoning based largely on emotion. Even allowing for this concession, she could not have used logic. Appeals to emotion are considered a logical fallacy for a reason. My very next point was going to be that she could not have had the reasoning faculty necessary to understand the implications of her decision as she did not yet know the difference between good and evil. I agree. When I picture this scenario playing out I'm picturing more of a young child mentality than that of a grown adult with the years of life experience behind them. Dad told me not to. But this guy says its ok. Dad had left them alone for this intruder to step in. The intruder was right there with her pushing her in that direction. What choice would any child make in that scenario? And why wasn't dad there to stop this from happening. Like we've already covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I'm willing to concede that there may have been some level of reasoning involved on Eve's part. But it was a very limited reasoning based largely on emotion. Even allowing for this concession, she could not have used logic. Appeals to emotion are considered a logical fallacy for a reason. My very next point was going to be that she could not have had the reasoning faculty necessary to understand the implications of her decision as she did not yet know the difference between good and evil. Given that Eve was specifically created to be Adam's helpmate in god's garden, knowing what fruits were good to eat would have been within her ability to reason. However, as the Prof has just pointed out, her reasoning and logic could not have extended to knowing the that her decision to listen to the serpent instead of her husband would have been an evil one. So, she was not logically choosing evil. She was therefore doing so on some other basis. No person can use an ability that they don't yet have to make a decision. They can only decide with what they have at that moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 Pay close attention here. Not knowing, she reasoned in the wrong direction. God sends Jesus that we may have a more direct understanding of who He is. We KNOW Satan, we live Satan. We have the opportunity to know God through Christ. Was actually his prayer I'm remembering. And communion, "do not quit meeting together", that we may know each other where we don' t have work so hard to have grace for each other. Mini-sermon over. Back to your regular scheduled programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 3 hours ago, DarkBishop said: I've been debating on whether or not to invite a preacher from my old church to come debate here. But in a lot of ways I think the road to deconversion is a road that has to be found. Not thrust upon you. He told me to keep sending him things that disprove God. That he feels it strengthens his faith. There is a whole arsenal here. Thats why I'm debating it within myself. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. And I'm sure he thinks the same thing when trying to bring you back to Jesus. There have been cases where Christians came to this site to Defend Jesus and ended up de-converting... but that was a long time ago and the internet was still young. I don't think it's too likely in this day and age. I'd say if you like the guy... let it be. If he's a dick, send him here and we'll tie him in a knot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted October 25, 2022 Super Moderator Share Posted October 25, 2022 To clarify my position: A logical argument is built on a series of premises. Each of these premises has to be internally coherent and consistent. No premise can be in contradiction to any other. And (this is the relevant part for this situation) every premise within the argument has to be valid. If any of the premises is not valid, then what you end up with is not a logical argument. It may be a reasonable argument. It may be a well-thought argument. But it is not a logical argument and the conclusion drawn is likely to be flawed. The entire event in Genesis 3 was built on an initial premise that was deeply flawed. The initial premise was an appeal to emotion. What followed was a series of emotional responses, none of which were valid logical premises. This means whatever "reasoning" Eve may have employed, it was clearly not logic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Pay close attention here. Not knowing, she reasoned in the wrong direction. God sends Jesus that we may have a more direct understanding of who He is. We KNOW Satan, we live Satan. We have the opportunity to know God through Christ. Was actually his prayer I'm remembering. And communion, "do not quit meeting together", that we may know each other where we don' t have work so hard to have grace for each other. Mini-sermon over. Back to your regular scheduled programming. Yes, Eve was penalised by god for being unable to understand (reason) the difference between good and evil. This not knowing, this shortfall in her reasoning faculties was caused by god, not her. Therefore, she was penalised by god for something he was the cause of and was responsible for. We are back to your garden in Texas Ed, where the fault and blame for the rattler causing harm is down to you. Not to your child. The child is never to blame for the intent of the parent to expose them to harm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said: Yes, Eve was penalised by god for being unable to understand (reason) the difference between good and evil. This not knowing, this shortfall in her reasoning faculties was caused by god, not her. Therefore, she was penalised by god for something he was the cause of and was responsible for. We are back to your garden in Texas Ed, where the fault and blame for the rattler causing harm is down to you. Not to your child. The child is never to blame for the intent of the parent to expose them to harm. The good news is we have a choice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: The good news is we have a choice.... Of what help to Eve could Jesus have been, either in Eden or out of it? God didn't incarnate himself as Jesus until thousands of years after Eve was dust. She had no opportunity to know god as Christ. As I said, the child is never to blame for the intent of the parent to expose them to harm. But according to you, they must suffer for what they should never have been forced to do - without hope of redemption. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 If you can show that Jesus had any part to play in the lives of Adam and Eve, please do so, Edgarcito. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: If you can show that Jesus had any part to play in the lives of Adam and Eve, please do so, Edgarcito. Doesn't it say he was there in the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 15 minutes ago, RankStranger said: I'd say if you like the guy... let it be. If he's a dick, send him here and we'll tie him in a knot I do like the guy. Hes a very good man. That's why I haven't told him about ExC. Right now I just think it would fuck up his world if he did get smacked in the face with it. I know how that is. I think I'll wait. He knows my stance. If he ever comes to me with questions. Tho. I won't sugar coat the truth. And I will argue against any proselytizing on his part. I'm done with hiding it now. I've even broke the news to my super religious grandmother that I no longer attend church. And if she catches wind of it and asks if I still Believe. I'm not gonna lie. Sorry. I have ADD and go on rabbit trails often But yeah. Right now he's happy with his faith. So I think it's best to let it be. Unless he begins to question more. But he has been questioning. So who knows. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Doesn't it say he was there in the beginning. But not as the pure and sinless blood sacrifice for the sins of the world. THAT is the Christ you were referring to when you said that we have an opportunity to know god through Christ. The Christ who was born of the virgin Mary, who was crucified and who rose again on the third day. THAT Christ didn't exist in Eden for Eve's benefit, comfort, guidance and redemption. And what's more she was forced out of god's presence at the point of a flaming sword! You are shifting the goalposts. You're argument works only for people who live in post-resurrection times. Like us. Not Eve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share Posted October 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: But not as the pure and sinless blood sacrifice for the sins of the world. THAT is the Christ you were referring to when you said that we have an opportunity to know god through Christ. The Christ who was born of the virgin Mary, who was crucified and who rose again on the third day. THAT Christ didn't exist in Eden for Eve's benefit, comfort, guidance and redemption. And what's more she was forced out of god's presence at the point of a flaming sword! You are shifting the goalposts. You're argument works only for people who live in post-resurrection times. Like us. Not Eve. My mistake....I see your point. Wasn't intentional, just getting tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: My mistake....I see your point. Wasn't intentional, just getting tired. Then take a break and return when refreshed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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