Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I think this has been another well thought out argument. I appreciate it guys. I really do love these discussions we have. 

 

Its funny. I remember the scriptures about putting on the armor of God in ephesians 6.

 

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

I would study and study trying to put this armour on. I believed this. I wanted to be a warrior. 

 

But the thing is. When it boils down to it and you believe the literal word of God. Your in for a lot of let downs. Nothing that the book says actually happens in reality. Its laughable. 

 

When you take a step back and really look at it. You can see it. Its all a lie. I'm sorry. It is. I've done it all. Communion, foot washing, laying on of hands, anointing in oil. I believed every word of it. I fasted for seven days one time. Literally no food for seven days. I allowed myself drinks and thats it.

 

But people die. Illnesses last. Crimes happen. Hardships last. Spouses cheat.  Non of the promises happen and Jesus never comes back. 

 

Its hard to realize it AT first. But there is some peace in that. In finally knowing the truth. 

 

Non of God's armour can last when you see the truth. It will punch holes all in the bibles BS. Don't believe the lies. Believe the truth. Even if it is hard to take. 

 

Thanks,

DB

[RankStranger]

<double post>

[RankStranger]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I do like the guy. Hes a very good man. That's why I haven't told him about ExC.

 

Right now I just think it would fuck up his world if he did get smacked in the face with it. I know how that is.

 

I think I'll wait. He knows my stance. If he ever comes to me with questions. Tho. I won't sugar coat the truth. And I will argue against any proselytizing on his part. I'm done with hiding it now. I've even broke the news to my super religious grandmother that I no longer attend church. And if she catches wind of it and asks if I still Believe. I'm not gonna lie. 

 

Sorry. I have ADD and go on rabbit trails often  

 

But yeah. Right now he's happy with his faith. So I think it's best to let it be. Unless he begins to question more. But he has been questioning. So who knows. 

 

DB

 

These days I think that if somebody is ok with their faith, not suffering and not hurting anybody, the best thing you can do for them is to leave them to it.  Unless they're really looking for answers.  

 

Or if they're being a dick and they've earned some trolling.  We need more of those around here.  They never seem to stick around, except for Edgar.

 

Say what you want about the guy- Edgar is not a quitter 

[Edgarcito]

51 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

These days I think that if somebody is ok with their faith, not suffering and not hurting anybody, the best thing you can do for them is to leave them to it.  Unless they're really looking for answers.  

 

Or if they're being a dick and they've earned some trolling.  We need more of those around here.  They never seem to stick around, except for Edgar.

 

Say what you want about the guy- Edgar is not a quitter 

One of the arguments years ago was that Christians never understood, never knew how y'all got where you are.  

Don't get me wrong, I hurt people occasionally because I've been hurt on a big scale.  Not sure if it ever won't affect me.  Long story short, I'd pull you bastards out of a fire if needed.  I could actually be a dick.  I just play one on the internet...

[mwc]

     This thread has wondered down the same old, familiar, paths.

 

     So how about figuring out if Eve has the ability to lie?  She just might.  Let's find out.

 

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

 

     Seems, leaving ourselves strictly to what the bible says (that's the exercise I think), that Eve has the ability to at least embellish the truth (which is a lie).  Nowhere is this touching clause ever given by god, or Adam, but yet she passes it on to the serpent as a quote from god.

 

     For what reason is she making this addition?  Is it purely emotional?  Is there some sort of reasoning behind it?  She's making a clear response to the serpent showing she understands his question and her embellishment shows she understands more about the command than to simply not eating the fruit from the tree.  It shows she is reasoning.

 

          mwc

 

[walterpthefirst]

I don't think that Eve lied, mwc.

 

Instead she was at the end of a faulty and broken chain of command that was god's doing and his fault.  You'll notice that god issues his warning about the forbidden tree only to Adam.  At that time he didn't have a helpmate and so Eve was created from his rib after Adam realized that none of the animals would be suitable helpmate for him in his job of looking after god's garden.

 

Eve never heard god's warning from god himself.  

 

She heard it from Adam's lips.  According to scripture it is impossible for god to lie or to make a mistake.  But it is entirely possible for human beings to err, even when they are trying to tell the truth.  If you consider god's warning he couched it in terms that would have been totally unfamiliar, if not incomprehensible to Adam.  What was death?  All Adam can possibly know is that it's something that will happen to him on the day he eats from the forbidden tree. 

 

For all he knows death could be something neutral or even desirable, rather than something to be feared.  So, of what value as a deterrent was god's warning?  The answer is, none at all.  Surprisingly for a being that supposedly knows all things god didn't know in advance that his warning to Adam was useless.  He also didn't seem to know in advance that Adam would garble this useless warning when he relayed it to Eve.

 

So, rather than Eve deliberately lying, I submit that her misunderstanding of god's warning was due to a combination of god's malicious intent and Adam's confusion.  We read that it was her and not Adam who was targeted by the serpent/Satan.  Are we surprised by this?  No, of course not.  Whatever or whoever the serpent was it makes perfect sense for it to target the weakest link in the chain - Eve.  

 

The rest is history.

 

Please note mwc that I've attributed malicious intent to god when it comes to his warning Adam about the tree.  I do this because an all-knowing, all-powerful and loving god would not and could not make a mistake that would put his children in harm's way.  Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that it was god's intent to confuse Adam, his intent that Eve be further confused and his intent that she be a soft target for the serpent/Satan.

 

This, of course, means that the god described in Eden is evil.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

I've be thinking about what happened in this thread yesterday.

 

Edgarcito followed his usual line of disparaging logic and promoting faith.  But his faith failed him.  He made the faith-based assertion that everyone has the opportunity to know god through Jesus Christ.  But this is an un-biblical error and false.  As I was able to demonstrate yesterday using logic.

 

I do not write this to gloat or to score points over Ed.  Instead I am writing this to challenge his insistence that faith always brings a believer closer to god.  Yesterday it didn't.  Yesterday, his faith took him further away from god, not closer.  The reason for this is that faith must work hand-in-hand with scripture or else error results.  Otherwise, what's the point of the Bible?  It just becomes a convenient repository of cherry-picked justifications that can be spun however the believer feels is true at that moment.

 

Logic is the key to understanding scripture properly.  How could it be otherwise?  What else is the bible but a collection of writings organised according to the logical principles of language and reason.  We all use these same principles every day to communicate with each other.  That's what human civilization essentially is - the collective human understanding of life, the universe and everything logically encoded in words and set down according to the logical rules of language.

 

As an Ex-Christian, atheist and sceptic I have no faith to use in my understanding of scripture.  But I do have logic.  And yesterday it was logic alone that showed the error in Edgarcito's thinking.  I strongly recommend that he stop thinking of reason and logic as enemies and to use logic and reason to better understand scripture.  I therefore leave him with this thought.

 

John 1 : 1

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

What else does he think The Logos is except god's divine reason and logic distilled into an eternal Word?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

  

[Edgarcito]

23 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

I've be thinking about what happened in this thread yesterday.

 

Edgarcito followed his usual line of disparaging logic and promoting faith.  But his faith failed him.  He made the faith-based assertion that everyone has the opportunity to know god through Jesus Christ.  But this is an un-biblical error and false.  As I was able to demonstrate yesterday using logic.

 

I do not write this to gloat or to score points over Ed.  Instead I am writing this to challenge his insistence that faith always brings a believer closer to god.  Yesterday it didn't.  Yesterday, his faith took him further away from god, not closer.  The reason for this is that faith must work hand-in-hand with scripture or else error results.  Otherwise, what's the point of the Bible?  It just becomes a convenient repository of cherry-picked justifications that can be spun however the believer feels is true at that moment.

 

Logic is the key to understanding scripture properly.  How could it be otherwise?  What else is the bible but a collection of writings organised according to the logical principles of language and reason.  We all use these same principles every day to communicate with each other.  That's what human civilization essentially is - the collective human understanding of life, the universe and everything logically encoded in words and set down according to the logical rules of language.

 

As an Ex-Christian, atheist and sceptic I have no faith to use in my understanding of scripture.  But I do have logic.  And yesterday it was logic alone that showed the error in Edgarcito's thinking.  I strongly recommend that he stop thinking of reason and logic as enemies and to use logic and reason to better understand scripture.  I therefore leave him with this thought.

 

John 1 : 1

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

What else does he think The Logos is except god's divine reason and logic distilled into an eternal Word?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

  

I don't see that at all Walter.  It was pointed out that Eve used logic.  DB, MWC, and I agreed.  Even the Prof backed up. If anything, my faith is stronger.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't see that at all Walter.  It was pointed out that Eve used logic.  DB, MWC, and I agreed.  Even the Prof backed up. If anything, my faith is stronger.  Thx.

 

Then how was I able to use logic alone to show the error in your faith-based assertion about Jesus?

 

Because your faith failed to lead you to the truth of scripture.

[Edgarcito]

10 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then how was I able to use logic alone to show the error in your faith-based assertion about Jesus?

 

Because your faith failed to lead you to the truth of scripture.

You last post was a hook apparently.  Oops, the fish is off the line.  I'll think about it Walter.  Thanks.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

19 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't see that at all Walter.  It was pointed out that Eve used logic.  DB, MWC, and I agreed.  Even the Prof backed up. If anything, my faith is stronger.  Thx.

This is false.  We agreed that there was a certain level of reasoning involved; but it was demonstrated that her reasoning did not involve logic.  You alone claim she used logic but you have failed to support your claim.  If this episode strengthened your faith, that only highlights the subjective nature of faith, and why personal interpretation and conjecture is unlikely to yield beneficial conclusions. 

[walterpthefirst]

18 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You last post was a hook apparently.  Oops, the fish is off the line.  I'll think about it Walter.  Thanks.

 

No, that's not true.

 

My post was a statement of fact - of what happened in this thread yesterday. 

 

Or are you now going to deny that your faith lead you astray?

 

I see that you just wrote something else false about what happened yesterday.

 

Which the Prof has just called you on.

 

So, would you please put things right and tell the truth?

 

Your faith lead you astray yesterday and you conceded that you made a mistake with it.

 

Isn't that the truth, Edgarcito?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

35 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

It was pointed out that Eve used logic.  DB, MWC, and I agreed.  Even the Prof backed up. 

 

5 hours ago, mwc said:

 It shows she is reasoning.

 

          mwc

 

 

20 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I dunno @TheRedneckProfessor the serpent lied. But it does look like she reasoned within herself. 

 

20 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm willing to concede that there may have been some level of reasoning involved on Eve's part.  But it was a very limited reasoning based largely on emotion.  Even allowing for this concession, she could not have used logic.  Appeals to emotion are considered a logical fallacy for a reason.

 

19 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

To clarify my position: 

 

A logical argument is built on a series of premises.  Each of these premises has to be internally coherent and consistent.  No premise can be in contradiction to any other.  And (this is the relevant part for this situation) every premise within the argument has to be valid. 

 

If any of the premises is not valid, then what you end up with is not a logical argument.  It may be a reasonable argument.  It may be a well-thought argument.  But it is not a logical argument and the conclusion drawn is likely to be flawed.

 

The entire event in Genesis 3 was built on an initial premise that was deeply flawed.  The initial premise was an appeal to emotion.  What followed was a series of emotional responses, none of which were valid logical premises.  This means whatever "reasoning" Eve may have employed, it was clearly not logic.

No one agreed with you that Eve used logic, Ed. 

 

You are welcome to lie to yourself.  You are welcome to lie to the other people in your life.

 

You are not welcome to lie to this community. 

 

Regards,

John

[walterpthefirst]

Following the Prof's lead of using what was written to get to the truth...

 

19 hours ago Edgarcito wrote...

 

 

My mistake....I see your point.  Wasn't intentional, just getting tired.  

 

 

The truth, Edgarcito.

 

The truth.

 

[Edgarcito]

22 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is false.  We agreed that there was a certain level of reasoning involved; but it was demonstrated that her reasoning did not involve logic.  You alone claim she used logic but you have failed to support your claim.  If this episode strengthened your faith, that only highlights the subjective nature of faith, and why personal interpretation and conjecture is unlikely to yield beneficial conclusions. 

You're welcome to ignore the established definition.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You're welcome to ignore the established definition.

You're welcome to ignore the established facts.  Have a good day.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You're welcome to ignore the established facts.  Have a good day.

When I get to Heaven, I'll ask Eve if what axioms she applied....

[Edgarcito]

9 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You're welcome to ignore the established facts.  Have a good day.

Can you honestly not see that "established facts" could be both logical but subjective to humanity.  Which is largely the argument.  Does your mind not reach farther?  Honest question man.  

[walterpthefirst]

17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

When I get to Heaven, I'll ask Eve if what axioms she applied....

 

You won't get to heaven if you don't change your lying ways, Ed.

 

So, can we have the truth now?

 

Yesterday, did your faith lead you astray and into error about scripture?

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Honest question man.  

An "honest" question from a proven liar is not worth the effort of answering. 

[walterpthefirst]

17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Can you honestly not see that "established facts" could be both logical but subjective to humanity.  Which is largely the argument.  Does your mind not reach farther?  Honest question man.  

 

Even if what you say here is so, can you honestly not see that it's just speculation? 

 

If something 'could be' then it is not proven.

 

So you did not make your case yesterday.

 

You speculated about it.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

16 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

You won't get to heaven if you don't change your lying ways, Ed.

 

So, can we have the truth now?

 

Yesterday, did your faith lead you astray and into error about scripture?

 

 

No where did I say I used faith alone.  Our reasoning, our application of science, of math, of logic only carries us to the limits of the subjectivity of humanity.  Each of you fail to see this.  Yet Eve and each of you declare your errant independence daily, thwarting reality.  

 

I'm done.  There is no other answer.  You know it and I know it.

 

Today's responses just reaffirms how badly you want to hold your positions....sadly.

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Even if what you say here is so, can you honestly not see that it's just speculation? 

 

If something 'could be' then it is not proven.

 

So you did not make your case yesterday.

 

You speculated about it.

 

 

I tell you what.  Ask any of your peers.  Hopefully they won't laugh outload.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

No where did I say I used faith alone.  Our reasoning, our application of science, of math, of logic only carries us to the limits of the subjectivity of humanity.  Each of you fail to see this.  Yet Eve and each of you declare your errant independence daily, thwarting reality.  

 

I'm done.  There is no other answer.  You know it and I know it.

 

Today's responses just reaffirm how badly you want to hold your positions....sadly.

 

Another example of your tenuous grasp of the truth, Ed.

 

I didn't say that you used faith alone either.  Neither of us did.  That's a distortion of the facts on your part.

 

What I did say today was this.

 

Edgarcito followed his usual line of disparaging logic and promoting faith.  But his faith failed him.  He made the faith-based assertion that everyone has the opportunity to know god through Jesus Christ.  But this is an un-biblical error and false.  As I was able to demonstrate yesterday using logic.

 

See?

 

Nowhere did I say or imply that you used faith alone.  

 

Please stop lying!

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Another example of your tenuous grasp of the truth, Ed.

 

I didn't say that you used faith alone either.  Neither of us did.  That's a distortion of the facts on your part.

 

What I did say today was this.

 

Edgarcito followed his usual line of disparaging logic and promoting faith.  But his faith failed him.  He made the faith-based assertion that everyone has the opportunity to know god through Jesus Christ.  But this is an un-biblical error and false.  As I was able to demonstrate yesterday using logic.

 

See?

 

Nowhere did I say or imply that you used faith alone.  

 

Please stop lying!

 

 

 

 

So Jesus wasn't there in the beginning?