Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[walterpthefirst]

How about this, mwc?

 

We know that god forbade Adam from eating from ONLY one of the two supernatural trees in Eden – the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  So, the Tree of Life was not off-limits.  We also know that ALL of the trees in Eden were pleasing to the eye and good for food.  Adam and Eve discovered that the forbidden tree was like this, thanks to the serpent. 

 

If we then look at Revelation 22, where the New Jerusalem is the full restoration of what was lost in Eden, what do we see?  The Tree of Life bears fruit twelve times a year, each month.  (Verse 2) Therefore, I submit the following scenario might have prevailed in Eden.

 

Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the natural trees of the garden to sustain their bodies on a daily basis.  But every month, when the fruit of the Tree of Life ripened, they ate that supernatural fruit to remain ageless.  So, their immortality was tied to the fruit of the Tree of Life.  Unlike god, who is truly immortal, eternal and ageless.

 

A further line of evidence for this scenario might be the declining ages of the patriarchs.  Adam lived to be 930.  But after the Flood the age of the patriarchs in the line of Shem and Abram had decreased to about 100 or 200 years.  This could be due to the waning influence of the life-giving Tree from generation to generation.

 

I submit that this scenario might explain the why’s and wherefores of what Adam and Eve ate in Eden.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

I'm reasoning Walter...one of the tools I use since we have exhausted the discussion about the efficacy of each.

 

But are you reasoning biblically?

[walterpthefirst]

And would you mind answering the question, Edgarcito?

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

But are you reasoning biblically?

With a good heart and help from the Holy Spirit.  I could do better on my Biblical knowledge, guaranteed.

[Edgarcito]

Just now, walterpthefirst said:

And would you mind answering the question, Edgarcito?

I'm not going to get into these "you didn't answer my question(s)" Walter.  From this moment forward, I either will or I won't.  I was attempting to move MWC's thoughts along this morning, no more.  Thanks.

[walterpthefirst]

Ok then.

 

The gaping hole in your argument and your evaluation of god's morality can wait.

 

Reason away!

[Edgarcito]

20 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

How about this, mwc?

 

We know that god forbade Adam from eating from ONLY one of the two supernatural trees in Eden – the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  So, the Tree of Life was not off-limits.  We also know that ALL of the trees in Eden were pleasing to the eye and good for food.  Adam and Eve discovered that the forbidden tree was like this, thanks to the serpent. 

 

 

Where was the Tree of Life in the garden please sir.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Where was the Tree of Life in the garden please sir.

 

Genesis 2 : 8 & 9.

 

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 

9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[Edgarcito]

6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Genesis 2 : 8 & 9.

 

8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 

9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Thx.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Imo, the entity humanity did not enjoy the same privileges while in the garden.....they were not like "us".  They were immortal without the knowledge.  There is immortality with the knowledge and without the knowledge. 

 

Where does it say they were immortal? God fears them eating the fruit of life and being immortal like him also. And like the knowledge of good and evil that passes to all of Adam's decendants. Immortality would have likewise probably passed to Adam's seed. Atleast thats what I get from the official narrative. 

 

58 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

According to scripture these people die and go to hell without the chance of hearing the Good News.

 

This amounts to billions being consigned by god to eternal hellfire simply by being born 'too soon'.

 

Is this god 'just being an ass', as you said he was in Eden, Edgarcito?

 

 

 

 

 

Galatians might help us with that.

 

Galatians 3

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

The promise was given to Abraham and his seed. It never says that Abraham went to hell. Abraham was faithful and he was counted worthy. So anyone following Abraham believing in his God and putting faith in his God would have been justified through Abraham and the promise given to him by God. 

 

Luke 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 

In this scripture there is a clear distinction that there was a separate place for those that were with Abraham. The law wasn't given until Moses. But all those people that believed with Abraham received the promise as well even tho they were not under the law or under grace. They were justified by Abraham's faith and God's promise. I would imagine this was also the holding place for those under the law as well. Waiting for Jesus to come and fulfill the law. In our church we believed that this is where Jesus went while he was dead for 3 days. And that these people went to heaven with Jesus at his ascension. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Where does it say they were immortal? God fears them eating the fruit of life and being immortal like him also. And like the knowledge of good and evil that passes to all of Adam's decendants. Immortality would have likewise probably passed to Adam's seed. Atleast thats what I get from the official narrative. 

 

 

Galatians might help us with that.

 

Galatians 3

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

The promise was given to Abraham and his seed. It never says that Abraham went to hell. Abraham was faithful and he was counted worthy. So anyone following Abraham believing in his God and putting faith in his God would have been justified through Abraham and the promise given to him by God. 

 

Luke 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 

In this scripture there is a clear distinction that there was a separate place for those that were with Abraham. The law wasn't given until Moses. But all those people that believed with Abraham received the promise as well even tho they were not under the law or under grace. They were justified by Abraham's faith and God's promise. I would imagine this was also the holding place for those under the law as well. Waiting for Jesus to come and fulfill the law. In our church we believed that this is where Jesus went while he was dead for 3 days. And that these people went to heaven with Jesus at his ascension. 

 

DB

 

A good argument, DB.

 

But how does grace extend backwards in time to help Adam and Eve?

 

That seemed to be what Edgarcito was saying - that grace was available to ALL.

 

So, how is grace given to those who lived and died before Abraham?

[Edgarcito]

48 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

How about this, mwc?

 

We know that god forbade Adam from eating from ONLY one of the two supernatural trees in Eden – the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  So, the Tree of Life was not off-limits.  We also know that ALL of the trees in Eden were pleasing to the eye and good for food.  Adam and Eve discovered that the forbidden tree was like this, thanks to the serpent. 

 

If we then look at Revelation 22, where the New Jerusalem is the full restoration of what was lost in Eden, what do we see?  The Tree of Life bears fruit twelve times a year, each month.  (Verse 2) Therefore, I submit the following scenario might have prevailed in Eden.

 

Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the natural trees of the garden to sustain their bodies on a daily basis.  But every month, when the fruit of the Tree of Life ripened, they ate that supernatural fruit to remain ageless.  So, their immortality was tied to the fruit of the Tree of Life.  Unlike god, who is truly immortal, eternal and ageless.

 

A further line of evidence for this scenario might be the declining ages of the patriarchs.  Adam lived to be 930.  But after the Flood the age of the patriarchs in the line of Shem and Abram had decreased to about 100 or 200 years.  This could be due to the waning influence of the life-giving Tree from generation to generation.

 

I submit that this scenario might explain the why’s and wherefores of what Adam and Eve ate in Eden.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

My first impression is this is impressive insight.  Seemingly the content in Genesis is there for a reason.  I don't know that I've heard of this reasoning over the years.  I wish you would share these more betting you have many to offer.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

And seeing that grace was only extended to the Jews up until the time Peter declared that even Gentiles could be saved (Acts 10) what about the rest of humanity?

 

What about the billions who lived and died before the Good News could be brought to them by Christian missionaries?

 

How could they ever receive grace?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

A good argument, DB.

 

But how does grace extend backwards in time to help Adam and Eve?

 

That seemed to be what Edgarcito was saying - that grace was available to ALL.

 

So, how is grace given to those who lived and died before Abraham?

That is another good question. But we do know there was a holy priesthood before that. 

 

Hebrew 7

For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

 

Maybe it had something to do with this. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Just now, walterpthefirst said:

And seeing that grace was only extended to the Jews up until the time Peter declared that even Gentiles could be saved (Acts 10) what about the rest of humanity?

 

What about the billions who lived and died before the Good News could be brought to them by Christian missionaries?

 

How could they ever receive grace?

 

Ah no. As always in the bible. Everyone not being one of God's chosen peoples are fucked.  

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

That is another good question. But we do know there was a holy priesthood before that. 

 

Hebrew 7

For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

 

Maybe it had something to do with this. 

 

DB

 

Again, this would have only have extended grace to the Jews or their forbears.

 

What of everyone else in the world?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Just now, walterpthefirst said:

 

Again, this would have only have extended grace to the Jews or their forbears.

 

What of everyone else in the world?

They are royally screwed my friend. 

[walterpthefirst]

Exactly, DB.

 

And this is why I was interested to know from Edgarcito if god was 'just being ass' by consigning most of the world's population to hellfire and damnation, without any hope of grace.

 

 

But it seems we have to wait for that.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Well I have to sign off for a bit. Taking my son to the doctor then time to do some trunk or treating with my daughter. 

 

Later,

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

My first impression is this is impressive insight.  Seemingly the content in Genesis is there for a reason.  I don't know that I've heard of this reasoning over the years.  I wish you would share these more betting you have many to offer.  Thx.

 

Thank you, Ed.

 

You do realize that this insight is solely down to my powers of logic, don't you?

 

That I didn't arrive at this through faith?

 

 

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Thank you, Ed.

 

You do realize that this insight is solely down to my powers of logic, don't you?

 

That I didn't arrive at this through faith?

 

 

A blind hog finds a truffle every now and then sir.  Lol, (teasing you certainly)

[Edgarcito]

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. 13 For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed.

[Edgarcito]

This makes me think that when they ate from the tree that if death was passed to all men, then had they been already eating from the Tree of Life, that immortality would have already been passed.  I'm thinking that A&E had not been partaking of the Tree of Life....i.e. I have to move you from the garden before you eat of that one too.

 

If death enters through belief and action then life enters through belief and action.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

This makes me think that when they ate from the tree that if death was passed to all men, then had they been already eating from the Tree of Life, that immortality would have already been passed.  I'm thinking that A&E had not been partaking of the Tree of Life....i.e. I have to move you from the garden before you eat of that one too.

Yes I think you would be correct in that. But biblically God always makes a way for those that are obedient to his commands. Its everyone outside of God's little clique that are screwed. 

 

DB

 

Figured I'd check in while in the waiting room. 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

Yes I think you would be correct in that. But biblically God always makes a way for those that are obedient to his commands. Its everyone outside of God's little clique that are screwed. 

 

DB

 

Figured I'd check in while in the waiting room. 

so there's:

 

disbelief and action - 

disbelief and no action - 

belief and action - 

belief and no action - 

belief and the wrong action - 

belief and the right action - 

 

Can we completely place humanity in these categories with respect to time and God....and does it match the scripture.

 

Where's my Excel sheet....