Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Thank you, @Edgarcito, for an honest and direct answer.  @DarkBishop and @walterpthefirst, would the pair of you like to offer rebuttals or follow-up questions?  So long as we can keep the spirit of honest, constructive debate, the thread will remain active.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I was trying to communicate a steak, not a word salad.

Can I get fries with that?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I agreed with the Prof to talk across to the participants and attempt to do a better job fleshing out my thoughts so hopefully we won't expect the frustration in connecting each other's thoughts.  I apologize for the frustration and lack of maturity.  I'm certain I had intent, but also illustrates Christianity and faith even more.....which we might get to after making an honest attempt to answer your questions.....and complete this thread.

 

No, I wouldn't punish my daughter for being bitten by the snake, but that I'd allow the experience that she might learn of the snake.

 

No, I don't immediately know any good lesson I'm going to learn from the death, torture, or rape of my children.

 

But there could be something that God could give me to make up for the loss of a child, the resurrection and reunion to that child through faith, that if He can move us out of immortality, then He can move us to immortality....  as demonstrated with Adam and Eve, and Jesus.

 

That's what I have been wanting you to consider through questioning and my "word salads" as the Prof calls them.

 

To the "game".  You were the only one that answered.  I was waiting to see if anyone else was going to participate. 

 

 

Thank you for the honest answer. 

 

So as far as you can see, in this life, there would be absolutely no justifiable reason for the rape, torture, and death of innocent children. There is no reasonably significant lesson that can bring glory to God in this life for the rape, torture, and death of your children, as far as you know now.

 

But your hope is that those that have been afflicted with such trials will recieve just reward in the hereafter. And understanding. 

 

This is about the best I can expect you to say. 

 

To the observers of this discussion I want to point this out. 

 

Bad things happen in this world that are outside of our control. There are evil people in this world. These horrible things do happen daily. As you're reading this right now there is an innocent child somewhere being horribly abused without anyone or anything stopping it from happening. And there is absolutely no reason that an Omni God, like the whole of the Bible describes, shouldn't intervene. I will let you draw your own conclusions to what that means. For now

 

Ed's response is a classic Christian response. This is what the Church leaders will revert to if anyone asks them why they are suffering so much. And they find within themselves that even they cant fathom a reason why. I've seen it to many times. There are even songs written about it. Just look up the song "Farther along".

 

"Farther along, we'll know all about it."

"Farther along, we'll understand why"

 

So when all the Glorious promises of God fail. When our all powerful, all knowing, all loving, always present God doesn't fulfill his promises. Keep having faith because hopefully he will give you the answers after this life. 

 

But this is what Jesus said:

 

John 14

 

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

Ed said that there may be something "good" that would come out of a bad situation. Or some "good" lesson to be learned. 

 

Jesus said that it would be the fulfillment of your prayers that would glorify God. Not the senseless suffering of an innocent child and the obvious broken promises of Jesus and God as a result. 

 

Job was the old testament. Maybe that would fly then. But we are ExChrisitans talking to Christians. According to the saviour himself. Your answered prayers would glorify God. 

 

God freeing Rosa miraculously and preventing her rape and murder would have glorified God.

 

God healing childhood leukemia would glorify God.

 

A man growing a new limb after being annointed with oil in the church, and prayed over, would glorify God. 

 

It isn't supposed to be the unanswered prayers that Glorify God and teach us a lesson, but the answered prayers. 

 

The biblical God either does not exist. Or the Bible does not have a true description of God. 

 

I blamed myself for a long time when I felt I had been slighted or ignored by God. I felt like I wasn't good enough for him. I wasn't Good enough for God to bless with answered prayers. 

 

Before I fully deconverted I truly felt that God must not like me. It is hard being in that frame of mind. Its depressing.

 

But Its refreshing now to know that nothing that happened in my past was a result of me not being good enough for God. A lot of it was a result of mistakes either made by me or someone else. 

 

But now the power is in my court. If there is an obstacle in my way. It is up to me to overcome that. If something bad happens its not because I'm not good enough for the blessings of an omni God. It could just be bad luck. Shit happens and there is nothing we can do about it. And that's OK. We can adapt and overcome. We are worthy. We are worthy of a better life and it is up to the individual to make that happen. And it can happen. 

 

Don't depend on answered prayers to get you through. Because let's face it. Gods track record isn't great. I don't want to wait until I'm dead to know the answers, when I know the answer is staring me right in the face. ED im talking to you. The answer is right here. Right now. Not in the hereafter. 

 

Thank you,

Dark Bishop.

[RankStranger]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I will agree with you to an extent. And that's why often when I talk to Christians. Even Ed here. I tell them if they are happy with their faith. And that faith isn't depriving them of a full life. Then more power to them. 

 

But the problem is that most Abraham's faiths do not meet that criteria. Any religion that adheres to the Bible, Koran, or Torah is probably a very restrictive faith. Muslims in some countries still stone women because that is what their faith says to do. The majority of Abrahamic Faith based institutions create a toxic relationship between the believer and God. 

 

The only way to have that type of faith with Abraham is religions is to do like Ed does. Pick and choose what your going to believe or take seriously. And then just live life annoying exchristians because you think your better than them by still believing in "part" of the Bible instead of refusing to believe any of it. 

 

In actuality according to the Bible. Ed is going to hell with us. He just doesn't know it yet or won't accept that that is exactly what his religious text dictates should happen to a "luke warm" believer. 

 

Notice how now he tries to play the victim and evade our direct questions. He won't answer them because he knows that a loving father would not punish his daughter when the snake comes into his garden. 

 

He also knows nothing God could give himself, Job, Rosa, or her family would make up for the loss, torture, and rape of an innocent child. He also knows there is no lesson that is "good" enough to justify God sitting idle watching all this play out. He just won't say it. His evasion answers my questions. 

 

 

 

I'm not here to condemn Ed personally.  IMO he's a good guy... we just disagree on some fundamental ideas.

 

Like most folks here I was taught to believe that The Bible was the 100% literally true inspired Word of God.  When I came to understand that that view couldn't possibly be true, I rejected the whole thing.  Because what good is a Holy Book when you're just picking and choosing what you believe from it? 

 

But lately I think that reaction (my total rejection of the Bible) was just a logical next step based on what I was taught in church.  Even as an Atheist, I was following fundamentalist rules (thou shalt not cherrypick).

 

See, a favorite topic among Fundagelical preachers is that you're gonna go to hell if you cherry-pick the bible.  They LOVE to preach that if you only follow the good, kind, loving parts of the bible, but not the nasty/hateful/sadistic parts, you're gonna go to hell.  IMO it really shows where their priorities lie.

 

My problem with that take IMO is that the entire church and modern Christian world view is BASED on cherry-picking.  They're just conditioned to not see it or admit it.  When following a self-contradictory book written by fallible men, translated by fallible men, deliberately edited by fallible men... anything you could possibly get out of the book *is* cherry-picked.

 

IMO I have a right and a duty to believe and to act upon what *I* think is true.  Anything less is dishonest as far as I can tell.  So a certain judgment of our own is called for.  Jesus had something to say about this:

 

 

 

Quote

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

So shouldn't the child be punished for something it wasn't responsible for? I was asking if you (not god) should punish your child for an evil that was your responsibility to prevent.

The responsibility was yours, so do you punish your child for something you were responsible for?

That is the question you need to answer.

Please do so.

 

Edgarcito replied...

 

No, I wouldn't punish my daughter for being bitten by the snake, but that I'd allow the experience that she might learn of the snake.

 

 

How can she learn anything, Ed?  She's dead.  In fact, both of your children are dead.  Because you failed in your parental duty of care and allowed the snake to harm them.  You were their parent, guardian, protector and provider and by failing in all of these roles you've lost all moral authority over them.  You no longer have any moral right to expect them to aspire to your standards and your values.  

 

Had they lived they would have looked to you for moral leadership and tuition.  You would have been the one to teach them right from wrong.  From you they could have learned through example and experience.  But you blew that chance.

 

However, for the sake of argument, let's assume that your children didn't die through your lack of care. 

 

They are still alive - although poisoned and in terrible, continual pain.  Although you are still their parent, guardian, protector and provider, you go ahead and further betray your responsibilities and duties by forcing them out of your garden and off your property.  You are perfectly within your legal rights to do so because you are the owner of the land and your children have lived there by your permission.  Being underage they have no legal right to live on your land without your express permission. And now you withdraw that permission.

 

So, you force them to leave.

 

On the basis of what I've just described Ed, could you please answer two questions.

 

1. 

By failing to protect your children from harm and by then forcing them off your land, how have you lived up to your moral responsibilities as their parent, guardian, protector and provider?

 

2.

Given that you have lost the right to continue as your children's moral guide why would you expect to continue in that role - as something and someone that they should imitate and aspire to be like?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[RankStranger]

This whole discussion is a moot point for those who don't believe in Fundagelical Inerrancy of the Bible.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Thank you for the honest answer. 

 

So as far as you can see, in this life, there would be absolutely no justifiable reason for the rape, torture, and death of innocent children. There is no reasonably significant lesson that can bring glory to God in this life for the rape, torture, and death of your children, as far as you know now.

 

But your hope is that those that have been afflicted with such trials will recieve just reward in the hereafter. And understanding. 

 

This is about the best I can expect you to say. 

 

To the observers of this discussion I want to point this out. 

 

Bad things happen in this world that are outside of our control. There are evil people in this world. These horrible things do happen daily. As you're reading this right now there is an innocent child somewhere being horribly abused without anyone or anything stopping it from happening. And there is absolutely no reason that an Omni God, like the whole of the Bible describes, shouldn't intervene. I will let you draw your own conclusions to what that means. For now

 

Ed's response is a classic Christian response. This is what the Church leaders will revert to if anyone asks them why they are suffering so much. And they find within themselves that even they cant fathom a reason why. I've seen it to many times. There are even songs written about it. Just look up the song "Farther along".

 

"Farther along, we'll know all about it."

"Farther along, we'll understand why"

 

So when all the Glorious promises of God fail. When our all powerful, all knowing, all loving, always present God doesn't fulfill his promises. Keep having faith because hopefully he will give you the answers after this life. 

 

But this is what Jesus said:

 

John 14

 

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

Ed said that there may be something "good" that would come out of a bad situation. Or some "good" lesson to be learned. 

 

Jesus said that it would be the fulfillment of your prayers that would glorify God. Not the senseless suffering of an innocent child and the obvious broken promises of Jesus and God as a result. 

 

Job was the old testament. Maybe that would fly then. But we are ExChrisitans talking to Christians. According to the saviour himself. Your answered prayers would glorify God. 

 

God freeing Rosa miraculously and preventing her rape and murder would have glorified God.

 

God healing childhood leukemia would glorify God.

 

A man growing a new limb after being annointed with oil in the church, and prayed over, would glorify God. 

 

It isn't supposed to be the unanswered prayers that Glorify God and teach us a lesson, but the answered prayers. 

 

The biblical God either does not exist. Or the Bible does not have a true description of God. 

 

I blamed myself for a long time when I felt I had been slighted or ignored by God. I felt like I wasn't good enough for him. I wasn't Good enough for God to bless with answered prayers. 

 

Before I fully deconverted I truly felt that God must not like me. It is hard being in that frame of mind. Its depressing.

 

But Its refreshing now to know that nothing that happened in my past was a result of me not being good enough for God. A lot of it was a result of mistakes either made by me or someone else. 

 

But now the power is in my court. If there is an obstacle in my way. It is up to me to overcome that. If something bad happens its not because I'm not good enough for the blessings of an omni God. It could just be bad luck. Shit happens and there is nothing we can do about it. And that's OK. We can adapt and overcome. We are worthy. We are worthy of a better life and it is up to the individual to make that happen. And it can happen. 

 

Don't depend on answered prayers to get you through. Because let's face it. Gods track record isn't great. I don't want to wait until I'm dead to know the answers, when I know the answer is staring me right in the face. ED im talking to you. The answer is right here. Right now. Not in the hereafter. 

 

Thank you,

Dark Bishop.

I believe there is scripture to support that Jesus will compensate us for our works when he returns.  Please correct me if I missed the context.  The assumption on my part is that if our lives felt unjust or someone else's life we felt was an injustice, then it suggests that person would get compensated.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

29 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

This whole discussion is a moot point for those who don't believe in Fundagelical Inerrancy of the Bible.

Nope its for the great majority that do believe in that, who may be watching. Everyone that still believes in the bible and is held captive by the literal interpretation of it. Or are possibly questioning their churches teaching. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I believe there is scripture to support that Jesus will compensate us for our works when he returns.  Please correct me if I missed the context.  The assumption on my part is that if our lives felt unjust or someone else's life we felt was an injustice, then it suggests that person would get compensated.

 

The promises of answered prayers weren't for the afterlife Ed. I am only holding God to what is said in his own world. Yoir the one making excuses for him and willing to wait until death or resurrection for your answers to the obvious failures of God according to his word. 

 

You see scriptures for Jesus compensating us in the end. But do you find anything that suggest his promises won't be fulfilled? As promised?

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

I'm not here to condemn Ed personally.  IMO he's a good guy... we just disagree on some fundamental ideas.

 

Like most folks here I was taught to believe that The Bible was the 100% literally true inspired Word of God.  When I came to understand that that view couldn't possibly be true, I rejected the whole thing.  Because what good is a Holy Book when you're just picking and choosing what you believe from it? 

 

But lately I think that reaction (my total rejection of the Bible) was just a logical next step based on what I was taught in church.  Even as an Atheist, I was following fundamentalist rules (thou shalt not cherrypick).

 

See, a favorite topic among Fundagelical preachers is that you're gonna go to hell if you cherry-pick the bible.  They LOVE to preach that if you only follow the good, kind, loving parts of the bible, but not the nasty/hateful/sadistic parts, you're gonna go to hell.  IMO it really shows where their priorities lie.

 

My problem with that take IMO is that the entire church and modern Christian world view is BASED on cherry-picking.  They're just conditioned to not see it or admit it.  When following a self-contradictory book written by fallible men, translated by fallible men, deliberately edited by fallible men... anything you could possibly get out of the book *is* cherry-picked.

 

IMO I have a right and a duty to believe and to act upon what *I* think is true.  Anything less is dishonest as far as I can tell.  So a certain judgment of our own is called for.  Jesus had something to say about this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So are you a Christian again? A loose Christian like Ed that doesn't Believe in the literal interpretation? 

 

Or are you just agnostic and reflect on the good points in the bible instead of the negative? 

[Edgarcito]

18 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

The promises of answered prayers weren't for the afterlife Ed. I am only holding God to what is said in his own world. Yoir the one making excuses for him and willing to wait until death or resurrection for your answers to the obvious failures of God according to his word. 

 

You see scriptures for Jesus compensating us in the end. But do you find anything that suggest his promises won't be fulfilled? As promised?

 

DB

A lot of people think also think that when Eve ate, that she should have died immediately as opposed to humanity becoming finite.  I'd have to look DB to see if I had some discernment either way.  Thx.

[Edgarcito]

10 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

So are you a Christian again? A loose Christian like Ed that doesn't Believe in the literal interpretation? 

 

Or are you just agnostic and reflect on the good points in the bible instead of the negative? 

Hey, just for the record.  I'm trying to leave the discussion to the discussion.  How about you leave your personal interpretations of me out of the conversation for now as I also promised John.  Thanks.  

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

So shouldn't the child be punished for something it wasn't responsible for? I was asking if you (not god) should punish your child for an evil that was your responsibility to prevent.

The responsibility was yours, so do you punish your child for something you were responsible for?

That is the question you need to answer.

Please do so.

 

Edgarcito replied...

 

No, I wouldn't punish my daughter for being bitten by the snake, but that I'd allow the experience that she might learn of the snake.

 

 

How can she learn anything, Ed?  She's dead.  In fact, both of your children are dead.  Because you failed in your parental duty of care and allowed the snake to harm them.  You were their parent, guardian, protector and provider and by failing in all of these roles you've lost all moral authority over them.  You no longer have any moral right to expect them to aspire to your standards and your values.  

 

Had they lived they would have looked to you for moral leadership and tuition.  You would have been the one to teach them right from wrong.  From you they could have learned through example and experience.  But you blew that chance.

 

However, for the sake of argument, let's assume that your children didn't die through your lack of care. 

 

They are still alive - although poisoned and in terrible, continual pain.  Although you are still their parent, guardian, protector and provider, you go ahead and further betray your responsibilities and duties by forcing them out of your garden and off your property.  You are perfectly within your legal rights to do so because you are the owner of the land and your children have lived there by your permission.  Being underage they have no legal right to live on your land without your express permission. And now you withdraw that permission.

 

So, you force them to leave.

 

On the basis of what I've just described Ed, could you please answer two questions.

 

1. 

By failing to protect your children from harm and by then forcing them off your land, how have you lived up to your moral responsibilities as their parent, guardian, protector and provider?

 

2.

Given that you have lost the right to continue as your children's moral guide why would you expect to continue in that role - as something and someone that they should imitate and aspire to be like?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

I'll answer this Walter.  Just have only time to glance at the site.  Thanks.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

Hey, just for the record.  I'm trying to leave the discussion to the discussion.  How about you leave your personal interpretations of me out of the conversation for now as I also promised John.  Thanks.  

I wasn't talking to you. And I said nothing you haven't said yourself. It isn't my personal interpretation. So maybe you can C your way out of my conversation with Rank.

[RankStranger]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

So are you a Christian again? A loose Christian like Ed that doesn't Believe in the literal interpretation? 

 

Or are you just agnostic and reflect on the good points in the bible instead of the negative? 

 

I dunno... which maybe means I'm agnostic?  I can make the case that I'm culturally a Christian.  That's not exactly a choice on my part- just a fact about how I grew up.  But no, I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.  It's a particularly stupid and destructive idea IMO.  I don't take much of anything literally where spirituality is concerned.  

 

I read the bible sometimes these days because I like some of it.  I even pray to Jesus once in a while.  But FundieJesus sure would be pissed to find me out of my mind and meditating to some kind of Shiva mantra on Saturday 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I dunno... which maybe means I'm agnostic?  I can make the case that I'm culturally a Christian.  That's not exactly a choice on my part- just a fact about how I grew up.  But no, I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.  It's a particularly stupid and destructive idea IMO.  I don't take much of anything literally where spirituality is concerned.  

 

I read the bible sometimes these days because I like some of it.  I even pray to Jesus once in a while.  But FundieJesus sure would be pissed to find me out of my mind and meditating to some kind of Shiva mantra on Saturday 

 

 

 

That all sounds great. And do you think you probably had to deconvert to be able to see all the good points and leave out the negative in your worship/meditation? 

 

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I wasn't talking to you. And I said nothing you haven't said yourself. It isn't my personal interpretation. So maybe you can C your way out of my conversation with Rank.

You were talking about me.  That's enough.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

You were talking about me.  That's enough.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Ed you insulted my intelligence. And talked about our lofty ego's. 

 

That is not the same as mentioning that you do not take the Bible at its literal interpretation, which you have admitted yourself. To another member that also is not taking the Bible at its literal interpretation. 

 

Quit trying to start something. 

 

@TheRedneckProfessor I think I'm going to have to take a break for a bit. This thread has my blood pressure right now.

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

9 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Ed you insulted my intelligence. And talked about our lofty ego's. 

 

That is not the same as mentioning that you do not take the Bible at its literal interpretation, which you have admitted yourself. To another member that also is not taking the Bible at its literal interpretation. 

 

Quit trying to start something. 

 

@TheRedneckProfessor I think I'm going to have to take a break for a bit. This thread has my blood pressure right now.

 

DB

 

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

However, for the sake of argument, let's assume that your children didn't die through your lack of care. 

 

They are still alive - although poisoned and in terrible, continual pain.  Although you are still their parent, guardian, protector and provider, you go ahead and further betray your responsibilities and duties by forcing them out of your garden and off your property.  You are perfectly within your legal rights to do so because you are the owner of the land and your children have lived there by your permission.  Being underage they have no legal right to live on your land without your express permission. And now you withdraw that permission.

 

So, you force them to leave.

 

On the basis of what I've just described Ed, could you please answer two questions.

 

1. 

By failing to protect your children from harm and by then forcing them off your land, how have you lived up to your moral responsibilities as their parent, guardian, protector and provider?

 

2.

Given that you have lost the right to continue as your children's moral guide why would you expect to continue in that role - as something and someone that they should imitate and aspire to be like?

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

Can you clarify please Walter.  Are we talking about me and my children or Adam and Eve in Genesis.  Thanks.

[RankStranger]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

That all sounds great. And do you think you probably had to deconvert to be able to see all the good points and leave out the negative in your worship/meditation? 

 

That was part of it, sure.  I was an Atheist for 30+ years.  As far as I knew, my spirituality function just didn't work... and I was ok with that.  I understood that spirituality was a real human experience, even if it exists only in peoples' heads... but I couldn't access it.

 

Turns out it just needed a jump start 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

24 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Can you clarify please Walter.  Are we talking about me and my children or Adam and Eve in Genesis.  Thanks.

 

This is about you.

 

My two questions concern the morality of your actions towards your children.

 

Thank you.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

9 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

That was part of it, sure.  I was an Atheist for 30+ years.  As far as I knew, my spirituality function just didn't work... and I was ok with that.  I understood that spirituality was a real human experience, even if it exists only in peoples' heads... but I couldn't access it.

 

Turns out it just needed a jump start 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats awesome. I'm glad deconversion served you well and you can have those connections again without all the toxicity. 

 

I would like to have some type of spiritual connection too sometimes. It wouldn't be anything biblical tho. I'm a Mason and when they reference God it is called the Grand Architect.  They also accept people from other faiths than Christianity into the fraternity. I wouldn't feel comfortable serving as Chaplin in the meetings again. But I would feel comfortable praying to the Grand Architect. 

 

I'm glad you've been able to find peace and a semblance of spirituality. The main thing is you were able to leave those toxic beliefs behind. And that is what I hope for anyone. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

You were talking about me.  That's enough.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

Ed you insulted my intelligence. And talked about our lofty ego's. 

You're right about the geese, Ed.  You can't boldface call someone "stupid" and then get butthurt when they mention you in a hardly-even-negative light.  It's not like he insulted your tiara, there, princess.

 

[RankStranger]

22 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Thats awesome. I'm glad deconversion served you well and you can have those connections again without all the toxicity. 

 

I would like to have some type of spiritual connection too sometimes. It wouldn't be anything biblical tho. I'm a Mason and when they reference God it is called the Grand Architect.  They also accept people from other faiths than Christianity into the fraternity. I wouldn't feel comfortable serving as Chaplin in the meetings again. But I would feel comfortable praying to the Grand Architect. 

 

I'm glad you've been able to find peace and a semblance of spirituality. The main thing is you were able to leave those toxic beliefs behind. And that is what I hope for anyone. 

 

DB

 

 

Thanks DB.  For me part of the key is to let go of the notion that there has to be any *literal* truth to spirituality.  There isn't necessarily any literal truth in a song, a mythology, a feeling, etc... 

 

I don't remember if you were around when he was here, but Antlerman had a lot to say about this sort of thing.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I don't remember if you were around when he was here, but Antlerman had a lot to say about this sort of thing.

No I don't believe I was. February will make 6 years since I found this site. 

 

Did he pass away or just move on?