Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[mwc]

17 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

This is not the thrust of my argument, mwc.

Instead what I am arguing is that in this forum it has been the accepted norm to treat the bible as an integrated whole, not because it necessarily is an integrated whole, but because that is the most widely-accepted, orthodox and standard view of scripture adopted by most Christians.  Therefore, it serves the purposes of this forum well to make our counter-apologetic arguments from the same position as most Christians.   

 

Indeed, adopting a position that you do not necessarily agree with is the very basis of playing Devil's Advocate.  This is what I do.  I do not agree with the orthodox and standard tenets of Christian belief, but I do adopt them to make my counter-apologetic arguments.  Therefore, I treat the bible as an integrated whole, even though I do not necessarily believe that it is.

 

If anything, I couldn't care less if the bible were an integrated whole or not.  I have no emotional investment in that outcome.  But to serve this forum to the best of my ability I make the entirely pragmatic decision to make my counter-apologetic arguments relevant to the greatest possible number of visiting Christians and the lurkers.  And this means treating the scriptures as one integrated whole.

 

Sorry if I've waffled and repeated some points, mwc.  I hope you follow what I mean.

     Nope, I'm following.  It's doctrinal (and traditional) and using the bible to back up that position.

 

     I was trying to understand the biblical text for itself, you might say a more academic view, but this leans more towards a more a theistic position.  This seems to be where my confusion came from but I see it now.

 

          mwc

 

[mwc]

17 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Good lord.  It's like Nicean Council 2.0 up in here today.

     Too late.  That happened in 787.

 

          mwc

 

[mwc]

16 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

There is the admonition in Revelation not to add or subtract from that specific book.  

     See Book curse for a quick set of examples (most of these are post-biblical).

 

          mwc

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 10/22/2022 at 10:02 PM, Edgarcito said:

How do you know that the process is punishment but rather a means to an end… a good end.  How many times is that repeated in the Bible.

 

Ed, 

 

Let's take the story of Job. And instead its the book of Ed. 

 

13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:

15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

 

The material items, the crops, the festering boils, i might could wrap my head around all that as a "lesson". 

 

But is any blessing that God gives you after your ordeal going to bring back your children? All those years you nourished them. You raised them. Worked the land with them. The love you have for them. Is anything God gives you afterward. Even if it is twice the amount of children as you had before. Is it going to bring those children that the house fell upon back? 

 

Do you really think the lesson and the reward given in the end is worth the cost? Those children are gone. Wiped from existence just because God and Satan want to play some sick twisted game with your life. Just to see if you will curse God or not. 

 

Is that really the type of God you want to worship? What kind of fucking sick twisted sociopathic/narcissistic shit is that? And then in the end of the book. Yay!!!! Job got twice as much as he had before for being faithful. If this story wasn't a work of fiction he probably also had PTSD.

 

If Rosa had gotten away after being repeatedly raped, beaten, tortured, humiliated. Instead of hanged by her captors. Do you think there is any "good" lesson she will receive from that ordeal? Do you think there is any amount of blessing that God is going to give her that makes up for having to go through that?

 

Since she did get killed. What about her parents? Is there any lesson from God that you would consider "good" enough that would justify what happened to their daughter. Is their any blessing that would make up for what happened to their daughter?

 

This is my question to you, that I would like you to answer. I'm going to sum up all those questions I just asked together.  

 

Is there anything God can give you or teach you that is going to make up for the loss of your children? Especially, if that loss involves the repeated rape and torture of your children? 

 

Emphasis on you and yours. Not Job's 

 

Just answer the question. 

 

And you need to answer Walts question as well. Because what I just quoted wasn't an answer to his question. It was a Segway around it. 

 

[RankStranger]

Lately I've come to think that 'faith' might be a great thing... even faith in Jesus if that's what works for people.  But what most churches are selling... IMO it isn't 'faith'. 

 

They're selling a sort of fear-driven false certainty.  A fear-driven refusal to question.  A dishonest, defensive stance by people so convinced of their own righteousness that they're eager to lie and cheat in defense of their supposed 'God' (who always happens to be identical to their own subconscious impulses).

 

IMO, faith requires no intellectual defense.  It just is.

[Edgarcito]

19 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Lately I've come to think that 'faith' might be a great thing... even faith in Jesus if that's what works for people.  But what most churches are selling... IMO it isn't 'faith'. 

 

They're selling a sort of fear-driven false certainty.  A fear-driven refusal to question.  A dishonest, defensive stance by people so convinced of their own righteousness that they're eager to lie and cheat in defense of their supposed 'God' (who always happens to be identical to their own subconscious impulses).

 

IMO, faith requires no intellectual defense.  It just is.

It's argument for sport and therapy for me RS.  As I've said several times, my father could be at times an intellectual ass.  Several people here are the same.  It's not the "book of Ed" that I am trying to display, or heresy, but just a demonstration of the lack of ability to think.  I.e., their egos far surpass their brains.  In that, I get to still jab dear ole Dad for being such an ass.

 

You are right because faith allows for what could be....in an objective and subjective sense.  Grace then follows and love for those in a process we have already endured....and truthfully there is not much that can be argued from those points, more just observed.

 

Likewise, the mature person outside the fold, shouldn't, imo, have such a defensive stance to those in the fold...yet they do.    

[RankStranger]

I see so many "in the fold" who embrace lies and cruelty in the name of God.  I've got no interest in or respect for that kind of "fold".  That includes every evangelical church I've come into contact with.

 

IMO there is something fundamentally wrong about the evangelical notion of "faith".  What they sell ain't faith.  It's fear-driven false certainty and deliberate ignorance.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Is there anything God can give you or teach you that is going to make up for the loss of your children? Especially, if that loss involves the repeated rape and torture of your children? 

 

Emphasis on you and yours. Not Job's 

 

Just answer the question. 

 

And you need to answer Walts question as well. Because what I just quoted wasn't an answer to his question. It was a Segway around it. 

 

God moved Adam and Eve out from a seemingly enteral position to non.  God moves Jesus from a non-eternal position to eternal through faith.  Can we not apply this potential to the horrific events of our condition?  The same answer applies to the question Walter proposed and that I have already put to him in a question.  Do we KNOW that that our endeavors here, and hardships, are not more than tools to move us or someone else to some endpoint?  We DON"T.  We DON'T.  We DON"T.  We DON'T have that capability and never will.  All these great men of God, Chapter 11 of Hebrews, that Walter likes to quote from daily, are men "by faith".....over and over and over, yet he keeps thinking somehow no one will notice as he keeps pointing to me not following some particular interpretation, and interpretation that is unique to him, exactly because he is unique.  

 

I could go on.  You people are eaten up with your ego.  You label me a heretic after asking me to speculate on God's intent...  I digress...y'all aren't smart enough to play....several of you.

[Edgarcito]

6 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I see so many "in the fold" who embrace lies and cruelty in the name of God.  I've got no interest in or respect for that kind of "fold".  That includes every evangelical church I've come into contact with.

 

IMO there is something fundamentally wrong about the evangelical notion of "faith".  What they sell ain't faith.  It's fear-driven false certainty and deliberate ignorance.

Look, it's not my fault that "holiness" is what it is at the fundamental stage.  There are admonishments in the Bible for those still not moving forward.  Yes, two songs, a prayer, the sermon, pass the plate, we all drive to eat Sunday dinner in our Suburbans with 2.5 beautiful children and then go take a nap.....while holding those without Stars upon Thars in a less holy position in fear so the elders can reign supreme.  Yes, I agree.  Young people new to church who are "lost" find "holiness" in that potentially errant process in that the process gets perpetuated because now, the new person who is now "found" then thinks that the aforementioned is the "truth" about being "found".  "I was saved like this, so this must be the way to be saved".

 

But what are you going to do with your newfound understanding.  It somewhat dictates that you live as an example and not beat on that particular "fold" in faith and grace that they will find faith and grace.....which doesn't appear so.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

Lately I've come to think that 'faith' might be a great thing... even faith in Jesus if that's what works for people.  But what most churches are selling... IMO it isn't 'faith'. 

 

They're selling a sort of fear-driven false certainty.  A fear-driven refusal to question.  A dishonest, defensive stance by people so convinced of their own righteousness that they're eager to lie and cheat in defense of their supposed 'God' (who always happens to be identical to their own subconscious impulses).

 

IMO, faith requires no intellectual defense.  It just is.

 

I will agree with you to an extent. And that's why often when I talk to Christians. Even Ed here. I tell them if they are happy with their faith. And that faith isn't depriving them of a full life. Then more power to them. 

 

But the problem is that most Abraham's faiths do not meet that criteria. Any religion that adheres to the Bible, Koran, or Torah is probably a very restrictive faith. Muslims in some countries still stone women because that is what their faith says to do. The majority of Abrahamic Faith based institutions create a toxic relationship between the believer and God. 

 

The only way to have that type of faith with Abraham is religions is to do like Ed does. Pick and choose what your going to believe or take seriously. And then just live life annoying exchristians because you think your better than them by still believing in "part" of the Bible instead of refusing to believe any of it. 

 

In actuality according to the Bible. Ed is going to hell with us. He just doesn't know it yet or won't accept that that is exactly what his religious text dictates should happen to a "luke warm" believer. 

 

Notice how now he tries to play the victim and evade our direct questions. He won't answer them because he knows that a loving father would not punish his daughter when the snake comes into his garden. 

 

He also knows nothing God could give himself, Job, Rosa, or her family would make up for the loss, torture, and rape of an innocent child. He also knows there is no lesson that is "good" enough to justify God sitting idle watching all this play out. He just won't say it. His evasion answers my questions. 

 

8 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Can we not apply this potential to the horrific events of our condition?  The same answer applies to the question Walter proposed and that I have already put to him in a question.

 

I asked you if there is anything "good" God could teach you. Here let me still another of your quotes again. 

 

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

How do you know that the process is punishment but rather a means to an end… a good end.  How many times is that repeated in the Bible.

 

This is what you said on the last page. I quoted it on this page of the thread. 

 

You said that the process could not be punishment but a means to an end. A good and. And asked us how many times it has happened in the bible. 

 

To which I gave you the story of Job. This is one of those times in the bible. You mentioned. 

 

So how about answering my damn question. 

 

Is there anything God could give you to make up for your child being taken away from you. Is there any "righteous lesson" your going to learn by God letting your children be killed, tortured, and raped? 

 

Your the one that said it could be the means to a good end. What do you think that good end is?

 

Quit trying to play the victim. Your not the victim here and your the one with the Ego or you would answer the question honestly. 

[RankStranger]

<double post>

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I will agree with you to an extent. And that's why often when I talk to Christians. Even Ed here. I tell them if they are happy with their faith. And that faith isn't depriving them of a full life. Then more power to them. 

 

But the problem is that most Abraham's faiths do not meet that criteria. Any religion that adheres to the Bible, Koran, or Torah is probably a very restrictive faith. Muslims in some countries still stone women because that is what their faith says to do. The majority of Abrahamic Faith based institutions create a toxic relationship between the believer and God. 

 

The only way to have that type of faith with Abraham is religions is to do like Ed does. Pick and choose what your going to believe or take seriously. And then just live life annoying exchristians because you think your better than them by still believing in "part" of the Bible instead of refusing to believe any of it. 

 

In actuality according to the Bible. Ed is going to hell with us. He just doesn't know it yet or won't accept that that is exactly what his religious text dictates should happen to a "luke warm" believer. 

 

Notice how now he tries to play the victim and evade our direct questions. He won't answer them because he knows that a loving father would not punish his daughter when the snake comes into his garden. 

 

He also knows nothing God could give himself, Job, Rosa, or her family would make up for the loss, torture, and rape of an innocent child. He also knows there is no lesson that is "good" enough to justify God sitting idle watching all this play out. He just won't say it. His evasion answers my questions. 

 

 

I asked you if there is anything "good" God could teach you. Here let me still another of your quotes again. 

 

 

This is what you said on the last page. I quoted it on this page of the thread. 

 

You said that the process could not be punishment but a means to an end. A good and. And asked us how many times it has happened in the bible. 

 

To which I gave you the story of Job. This is one of those times in the bible. You mentioned. 

 

So how about answering my damn question. 

 

Is there anything God could give you to make up for your child being taken away from you. Is there any "righteous lesson" your going to learn by God letting your children be killed, tortured, and raped? 

 

Your the one that said it could be the means to a good end. What do you think that good end is?

 

Quit trying to play the victim. Your not the victim here and your the one with the Ego or you would answer the question honestly. 

There might never be a human understanding.....which is the point of faith.  Might I forgive someone?  Maybe, maybe not.  Might I forgive myself?  Maybe, maybe not.  What does God have for me eternally?  Understanding?  Hopefully.  But you and Walter want an answer now.  And if someone speculates, then it's Ed's book of heresy.  

[RankStranger]

9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Look, it's not my fault that "holiness" is what it is at the fundamental stage.  There are admonishments in the Bible for those still not moving forward.  Yes, two songs, a prayer, the sermon, pass the plate, we all drive to eat Sunday dinner in our Suburbans with 2.5 beautiful children and then go take a nap.....while holding those without Stars upon Thars in a less holy position in fear so the elders can reign supreme.  Yes, I agree.  Young people new to church who are "lost" find "holiness" in that potentially errant process in that the process gets perpetuated because now, the new person who is now "found" then thinks that the aforementioned is the "truth" about being "found".  "I was saved like this, so this must be the way to be saved".

 

But what are you going to do with your newfound understanding.  It somewhat dictates that you live as an example and not beat on that particular "fold" in faith and grace that they will find faith and grace.....which doesn't appear so.

 

Just callin' it like I see it.  IMO evangelical churches these days are far closer to the Pharisees than Jesus.

 

I don't think much of Baptists, generally speaking.  But IMO there's one thing they get right.  They have this idea that we suffer for our sins *in this world*, and I think there's truth to that (though we'd disagree on what sin is).  

 

Organized religion in general, and evangelical churches in particular, have been in decline for my whole life.  IMO that's a natural consequence of their own lies, hypocrisy, selfishness, etc.  Their own sin manifest.  Until they understand that and are able to see beyond their own self-righteousness, I have Faith that the universe will unfold accordingly.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, RankStranger said:

Just callin' it like I see it.  IMO evangelical churches these days are far closer to the Pharisees than Jesus.

 

I don't think much of Baptists, generally speaking.  But IMO there's one thing they get right.  They have this idea that we suffer for our sins *in this world*, and I think there's truth to that (though we'd disagree on what sin is).  

 

Organized religion in general, and evangelical churches in particular, have been in decline for my whole life.  IMO that's a natural consequence of their own lies, hypocrisy, selfishness, etc.  Their own sin manifest.  Until they understand that and are able to see beyond their own self-righteousness, I have Faith that the universe will unfold accordingly.

Yes.  Antlerman, if you remember Keith, was especially adept at discussing this.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

23 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I could go on.  You people are eaten up with your ego.  You label me a heretic after asking me to speculate on God's intent...  I digress...y'all aren't smart enough to play....several of you.

You need to remember that we indulge you here for our own purposes.  This does not, however, give you carte blanche to be a dick.  None of this shit has a god damn thing to do with the question DarkBishop asked you.  It's just a pathetic excuse for you to exercise the inferiority complex you got because daddy was so much smarter than you.  I'm in no mood for it today.

 

Answer the man's question or I'm shutting this shit-show down.  I'm not asking, son.

[Edgarcito]

DB, let me ask you this please.  The Bible says don't quit meeting together.  Why is that please sir.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

There might never be a human understanding.....which is the point of faith.  Might I forgive someone?  Maybe, maybe not.  Might I forgive myself?  Maybe, maybe not.  What does God have for me eternally?  Understanding?  Hopefully.  But you and Walter want an answer now.  And if someone speculates, then it's Ed's book of heresy.  

 

Ed. I played along with you. I answered your question about the homeless person to the best of my ability. I played along. I'm asking for a simple answer. As well as @walterpthefirst. 

 

You accused us of this. 

28 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

 

I could go on.  You people are eaten up with your ego.  You label me a heretic after asking me to speculate on God's intent...  I digress...y'all aren't smart enough to play....several of you.

 

And said I'm not smart enough to play. To that I say FUCK YOU ED!!! 

 

Is that why you haven't replied? Or is it that what I said about the homeless person wasn't expected so your not smart enough to continue with your own line of reasoning?

 

Thats you being backed into a corner that you know you can't get out of and lashing out. Your being a little whiny bitch like you always do when your realizing that what we are saying makes sense. Here let me answer for you. 

 

No Ed you wouldn't punish your daughter for being attacked by a snake.

 

No Ed there is no "good" lesson your going to learn from the death, torture, and Rape of your children.

 

No Ed, there is nothing God could give you to make up for the loss of your children. 

 

Thats the answer Ed. 

 

NO!, NO!, NO!

 

DB

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You need to remember that we indulge you here for our own purposes.  This does not, however, give you carte blanche to be a dick.  None of this shit has a god damn thing to do with the question DarkBishop asked you.  It's just a pathetic excuse for you to exercise the inferiority complex you got because daddy was so much smarter than you.  I'm in no mood for it today.

 

Answer the man's question or I'm shutting this shit-show down.  I'm not asking, son.

I already answered it.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

DB, let me ask you this please.  The Bible says don't quit meeting together.  Why is that please sir.

Answer my Goddamn question Ed. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Just now, Edgarcito said:

I already answered it.

No you didnt

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Edgarcito when you're ready to have an adult conversation with the rest of us, PM me and I'll unlock this thread for you.  Until then...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

This thread is being unlocked on a tentative basis.  @Edgarcito has something he would like to say.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Well, get on with it, Ed.

[Edgarcito]

57 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Ed. I played along with you. I answered your question about the homeless person to the best of my ability. I played along. I'm asking for a simple answer. As well as @walterpthefirst. 

 

You accused us of this. 

 

And said I'm not smart enough to play. To that I say FUCK YOU ED!!! 

 

Is that why you haven't replied? Or is it that what I said about the homeless person wasn't expected so your not smart enough to continue with your own line of reasoning?

 

Thats you being backed into a corner that you know you can't get out of and lashing out. Your being a little whiny bitch like you always do when your realizing that what we are saying makes sense. Here let me answer for you. 

 

No Ed you wouldn't punish your daughter for being attacked by a snake.

 

No Ed there is no "good" lesson your going to learn from the death, torture, and Rape of your children.

 

No Ed, there is nothing God could give you to make up for the loss of your children. 

 

Thats the answer Ed. 

 

NO!, NO!, NO!

 

DB

I agreed with the Prof to talk across to the participants and attempt to do a better job fleshing out my thoughts so hopefully we won't expect the frustration in connecting each other's thoughts.  I apologize for the frustration and lack of maturity.  I'm certain I had intent, but also illustrates Christianity and faith even more.....which we might get to after making an honest attempt to answer your questions.....and complete this thread.

 

No, I wouldn't punish my daughter for being bitten by the snake, but that I'd allow the experience that she might learn of the snake.

 

No, I don't immediately know any good lesson I'm going to learn from the death, torture, or rape of my children.

 

But there could be something that God could give me to make up for the loss of a child, the resurrection and reunion to that child through faith, that if He can move us out of immortality, then He can move us to immortality....  as demonstrated with Adam and Eve, and Jesus.

 

That's what I have been wanting you to consider through questioning and my "word salads" as the Prof calls them.

 

To the "game".  You were the only one that answered.  I was waiting to see if anyone else was going to participate. 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Well, get on with it, Ed.

I was trying to communicate a steak, not a word salad.