Going back to church for Christmas

[Joshpantera]

I've been not too far away from the SDA church. I've remained in contact with lots of friends from school. I've attended a few graduations and funerals over the years. And I've been married into SDA families twice. I've never gone back to church and sat through a sermon aside from whatever was said at the few graduations and funerals I've attended. At class reunions I skip the church service and just meet everyone afterwards for lunch and the dinners. 

 

But that's just me. I can't sit there in a pew listening to some complete fucking moron rail on about the bible as literally true, I just can't stand to sit there for something like that. But I understand the sentiment of putting up with BS for someone's elderly parents or whatever the case may be. I get it. Luckily, everyone that I would have needed to do that for are already long dead. Religion in my immediate family ended with my grandparents and great great parents' generations. My parents left the church around 10 years after I did. None of my siblings are theistic anymore.

 

My in-laws are SDA still, but we don't go to church to appease them. They have to deal with the fact that we don't go to church and don't believe any of it. It sucks to be them, because they live thinking everyone else aside from the two of them are likely lost souls. It must suck to live like that - thinking that you'll live forever, and the rest of the family will burn in torment. But again, that's THEIR problem, not ours. They're free to waste the last years of their lives in a miserable delusion where they think they're going to lose everyone. I wish they'd open their minds and choose a different path. But of course, it's not my decision to make for them, though. 

 

Anywho, Merry Christmas Eve everyone!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

I'd like to report some positive news from this family vacation to the Gatlinburg area. The same SDA in laws booked cabins and invited everyone to the trip. My wife's brothers are of the agnostic and atheist variety. We're all tattooed Gen-Xer's, drink, don't do church or religion, and basically don't follow anything from the SDA doctrinal beliefs.

 

But, after having a heart to heart while out trout fishing a stream with my father-in-law, I learned that they had invited their recently transgendered grandchild. The background is that Andy, married to Maria, transitioned to Elizabeth a couple years ago. Stayed Married to Maria, a female. She's apparently onboard with the whole thing. Now it's basically a lesbian couple, at least to the eye. These in laws ARE the hard right GOP. Nevertheless, my father-in-law told me that it was very important to them that Elizabeth knows that she's wanted in the family, and they didn't want to risk losing her. So, they showed up to the family vacation. It was the first time anyone had seen Andy as Elizabeth. It went off without a hitch. 

 

They still clearly believe SDAism, which posits no salvation outside of the church doctrinal beliefs. But they are unwilling to lose their family now in life, that much has been demonstrated. They will work to keep their family together regardless of circumstances. So, I need to stand corrected a bit in front of everyone here at ex-C for judging them so harshly prior to the trip. Maybe somewhere in their minds they don't really believe the church's stance on the dammed??? 

[TABA]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Maybe somewhere in their minds they don't really believe the church's stance on the dammed???

 

Another case of believers being better than their god.  They may be dealing with some cognitive dissonance, but at their age they’re probably too heavily invested in their belief system to consciously question it.  Fortunately, you and your brothers-in-law represent the future and the sure decline of theistic religion. 
 

Separate from religion though, it would be hard to wrap my head around a family member changing name and gender.  Would definitely take some getting used to.  Glad it’s gone as well as it has.

 

How was the trip and the fishing?  A bit cold for a boy from the Keys?

[Joshpantera]

15 hours ago, TABA said:

 

Another case of believers being better than their god.  They may be dealing with some cognitive dissonance, but at their age they’re probably too heavily invested in their belief system to consciously question it.  Fortunately, you and your brothers-in-law represent the future and the sure decline of theistic religion. 
 

Separate from religion though, it would be hard to wrap my head around a family member changing name and gender.  Would definitely take some getting used to.  Glad it’s gone as well as it has.

 

How was the trip and the fishing?  A bit cold for a boy from the Keys?

 

I got up there during the snowstorm. The roads were shutting down traffic. We had to get into a roadside motel after having several ice issues and near sliding off the road. Salt trucks with snowplows ran all night and the roads were drivable in the morning. The fishing there wasn't very good. I usually go to north Geogia (Fannin County) and have spots that are stocked year-round and hold fish. Sevierville and Pigeon Forge sucked pretty bad. And the crowds on the roads were over the top. We won't be going up there anytime soon.

[RankStranger]

Howdy folks... so a bit of an update.  Things didn't go exactly as planned.  I did come to see a few things though that I couldn't have articulated before.  This prayer thing is more powerful/dangerous than I realized.  Not sure if I'm ready for the 'Authentic Christian Believer' tag, but I'll let y'all be the judge of that 

 

The long and the short of it is that I found out that I'm a Christian.  Not a fundamentalist of course- but as a matter of cultural heritage and as a matter of spiritual practice for well over a year now, it's just a statement of fact that I'm a Christian.  As for belief, I can't make a rational argument.  And yet on some level I do believe, whether I want to or not 

 

 

No offense to rationalism intended, but there are domains of life where it just isn't a useful language.  We humans are not fundamentally rational beings. 

 

God Bless you all 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Howdy folks... so a bit of an update.  Things didn't go exactly as planned.  I did come to see a few things though that I couldn't have articulated before.  This prayer thing is more powerful/dangerous than I realized.  Not sure if I'm ready for the 'Authentic Christian Believer' tag, but I'll let y'all be the judge of that 

 

The long and the short of it is that I found out that I'm a Christian.  Not a fundamentalist of course- but as a matter of cultural heritage and as a matter of spiritual practice for well over a year now, it's just a statement of fact that I'm a Christian.  As for belief, I can't make a rational argument.  And yet on some level I do believe, whether I want to or not 

 

 

No offense to rationalism intended, but there are domains of life where it just isn't a useful language.  We humans are not fundamentally rational beings. 

 

God Bless you all 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well I guess I will never encourage anyone else talking about going to church again. 

 

DB

[Henndigo]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Howdy folks... so a bit of an update.  Things didn't go exactly as planned.  I did come to see a few things though that I couldn't have articulated before.  This prayer thing is more powerful/dangerous than I realized.  Not sure if I'm ready for the 'Authentic Christian Believer' tag, but I'll let y'all be the judge of that 

 

The long and the short of it is that I found out that I'm a Christian.  Not a fundamentalist of course- but as a matter of cultural heritage and as a matter of spiritual practice for well over a year now, it's just a statement of fact that I'm a Christian.  As for belief, I can't make a rational argument.  And yet on some level I do believe, whether I want to or not 

 

 

No offense to rationalism intended, but there are domains of life where it just isn't a useful language.  We humans are not fundamentally rational beings. 

 

God Bless you all 

 

 

 

I think that’s a very honest post.  All the best to you.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If it works for you, @RankStranger, then work it.  

[RankStranger]

12 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Well I guess I will never encourage anyone else talking about going to church again. 

 

DB

 

Meh, some things are just bound to happen.  I wasn't looking for permission- just looking for other peoples' thoughts on the matter.  And I know people here will pull no punches.

 

 

3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

If it works for you, @RankStranger, then work it.  

 

Thanks Professor.  I knew you folks wouldn't be dicks about this 

 

[TABA]

9 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I knew you folks wouldn't be dicks about this 

Deconverting greatly simplified my life and reduced the commandments from ten to this one: Don’t Be a Dick.  I fall short sometimes but I forgive myself and move on.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

6 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Meh, some things are just bound to happen.  I wasn't looking for permission- just looking for other peoples' thoughts on the matter.  And I know people here will pull no punches.

 

I don't like feeling like I aided in anyone's reconversion into something as toxic as Christianity. All the religions based on ancient canaanite beliefs have kept the world at each others throats for over 2000 years. And non of them are factual and true. The sheer death toll, torture, and mental anguish these religions have brought with them over the years is evidence enough for me now. Being on the outside looking in, to say that the benefit of the human race laying down these unfounded faiths would benefit us as a species much more than their continued existence. 

 

DB

[RankStranger]

14 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I don't like feeling like I aided in anyone's reconversion into something as toxic as Christianity. All the religions based on ancient canaanite beliefs have kept the world at each others throats for over 2000 years. And non of them are factual and true. The sheer death toll, torture, and mental anguish these religions have brought with them over the years is evidence enough for me now. Being on the outside looking in, to say that the benefit of the human race laying down these unfounded faiths would benefit us as a species much more than their continued existence. 

 

DB

 

I get what you're saying, and I've felt the same way.  But these days I think that humans will do awful shit to each other no matter their religion or ideology- not necessarily because of it.  If you managed to eliminate Christianity, Islam, and all other nasty religions... they will be quickly replaced with various -isms providing justification for the same sort of behavior.  Look at communism in the Soviet Union or China for a clear example.

 

I'm not here to excuse Christians or Muslims or any of the rest.  Just saying that the 'solution' you're looking to, if implemented on a mass scale, can easily be worse than the problem.  

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

11 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I'm not here to excuse Christians or Muslims or any of the rest.  Just saying that the 'solution' you're looking to, if implemented on a mass scale, can easily be worse than the problem.  

Or we could finally unite as a species for the greater purposes of the human race. Religion keeps us divided on a fundamental level. My hope is that as science continues to hone its understanding of reality based on evidence we can unite behind science to address the needs of humanity and our environment. 

 

Realizing that life on this earth is the only shot we probably get. And trying to insure that that life is lived to the fullest of our abilities. Sure we can hope for something more. And even I do hope for something more. But in the end the only thing I know is that I have this life. Why base life decisions on a book of fables, or waste my time believing said book, when I can base my life decisions and beliefs on verifiable truth? 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Rank,

 

In Veralyns thread you said this: im replying here in respect to Veralyns request in the other thread. 

 

"There are domains in life where we all practice a sort of faith that extends beyond the literal, verifiable, and measurable.  We can't function as humans without doing that to some extent."

 

As a 26 year athiest. I would think you should have been able to function very well as a human in that time without faith. 

 

DB

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I can see going back to a "love neighbot as self" ideology, but not to believing in the concept of God as described in the old testament. 

 

23 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

  Just saying that the 'solution' you're looking to, if implemented on a mass scale, can easily be worse than the problem.  

 

How do you explain several "secular" nations, and the Hadza tribe in Africa who never heard of God, being more peace loving, crime free, and happier than "religious" nations?

 

Best wishes!

[RankStranger]

28 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Rank,

 

In Veralyns thread you said this: im replying here in respect to Veralyns request in the other thread. 

 

"There are domains in life where we all practice a sort of faith that extends beyond the literal, verifiable, and measurable.  We can't function as humans without doing that to some extent."

 

As a 26 year athiest. I would think you should have been able to function very well as a human in that time without faith. 

 

DB

 

Small correction- I was an athiest for over 30 years.  Absent from my original church for 26.

 

I functioned reasonably well as an atheist during that time, in a lot of ways.  But there are some normal human experiences that I couldn't engage during that time.  Things that have caused real problems in my life. 

 

As an atheist, I was not able to go back to my old church, look my 90 year old childhood preacher in the eye... be happy to see him and enjoy the service with people I grew up with.  I wasn't able to put aside my disagreements, grievances, and petty shit like that... in order to feel the same love and joy that everybody else in my tribe was sharing. 

 

I wasn't able to set aside my own problems and listen to everything my parents and other elders have to say.  This doesn't mean I have to agree- not by a long shot.  But if I can't kindly and respectfully put my bullshit aside and listen to people who genuinely love me- and who are not long to this world- I consider that a problem.

 

And without engaging that belief that I apparently hold deep down, I was not able to hold much of anything sacred.  IMO that's a basic human function that I was cut off from.  Even as an atheist I had recognized for a long time that I was spiritually stunted.  Not able to engage in a very real human experience.

 

Now I'm able.  I know because I've done each of these things, more than once.

[RankStranger]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

I can see going back to a "love neighbor as self" ideology, but not to believing in the concept of God as described in the old testament. 

 

 

This is an edit- I didn't see this first sentence.

 

Yeah, I'm all about loving my neighbor these days.  Jesus thought it was pretty important, per Matthew:

 

Quote

³⁶Master, which is the great commandment in the law? ³⁷Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ³⁸This is the first and great commandment. ³⁹And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ⁴⁰On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. 

 

As for the Old Testament God... well, I'm told that we have a New Covenant these days.  Jesus is much easier to get along with.

 

 

 

Quote

How do you explain several "secular" nations, and the Hadza tribe in Africa who never heard of God, being more peace loving, crime free, and happier than "religious" nations?

 

Best wishes!

 

I don't see anything I need to explain.  I wish them well, and I hope we Westerners don't fuck with their way of life.

[TABA]

Hey @RankStranger, I hope you will take these comments of mine in the spirit they are intended: honest, heartfelt, not intended as a criticism, and absolutely wishing you well…

 

I wouldn’t be honest if I said I’m not disappointed over your return to Christianity.  On a visceral level I regret losing one of our number to the faith.  It’s a loss for the tribe, a reversal of what we do and encourage here.  
 

But on a deeper level I feel like you missed an opportunity, a chance to replace aspects of your old faith with something better while moving beyond just defining yourself as an atheist.  
 

We’re all different of course, and some people can leave theistic religion behind without feeling the need to replace it with anything.  Others replace it with other mystical or spiritual beliefs and rituals, or political activism, or an exploration of other philosophies old and new, Eastern and Western, as guides for living.  Deconversion is a great opportunity to expand our horizons and that has been one of the great joys of my own journey away from theistic belief.  
 

We are social animals and when the deconverting individual only had a tribe of fellow-Christians, it’s important to find other connections.  For me, this online community has been important for years now, but I also started spending more time with a small handful of non-believing friends as well as a larger group for whom life doesn’t revolve around religion.  I certainly haven’t turned my back on Christian friends and family, but they’re now just one part of the picture and that works for me.  
 

I hope you will continue to keep an open mind, both within and without your religious experiences.  In any case, I wish you the best!

 

- TABA
 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

Small correction- I was an athiest for over 30 years.  Absent from my original church for 26.

 

I functioned reasonably well as an atheist during that time, in a lot of ways.  But there are some normal human experiences that I couldn't engage during that time.  Things that have caused real problems in my life. 

 

As an atheist, I was not able to go back to my old church, look my 90 year old childhood preacher in the eye... be happy to see him and enjoy the service with people I grew up with.  I wasn't able to put aside my disagreements, grievances, and petty shit like that... in order to feel the same love and joy that everybody else in my tribe was sharing. 

 

I wasn't able to set aside my own problems and listen to everything my parents and other elders have to say.  This doesn't mean I have to agree- not by a long shot.  But if I can't kindly and respectfully put my bullshit aside and listen to people who genuinely love me- and who are not long to this world- I consider that a problem.

 

And without engaging that belief that I apparently hold deep down, I was not able to hold much of anything sacred.  IMO that's a basic human function that I was cut off from.  Even as an atheist I had recognized for a long time that I was spiritually stunted.  Not able to engage in a very real human experience.

 

Now I'm able.  I know because I've done each of these things, more than once.

 

I would like to reply to this more thoroughly in a few days if you don't mind Rank. But Right now I feel I owe you an apology for jumping on you. I unfortunately had a gout flare up starting Christmas eve that I eventually had to start taking steroids to quil the inflammation, so that I could work. As a result it has made me more irritable than usual. I've had a short fuse all day. Not just toward you but my family anf other members here as well. When I realized the level of anger I was feeling wasn't really warranted, I had to take a step back and decide that now is not the best time for me to be talking about your specific situation.

 

It started out with me being angry at myself for encouraging you to go but according to your OP your resolve was solid against ever believing again. And I don't think you are believing for the right reasons. It sounds more like you want to believe to please others and reconnect with your "tribe" than actually believing that it all happened. Or that it is factual. But we can talk about that after the effects of my medication leave in a few days. 

 

Again, I apologize if I offended you. But please continue to respect the forums and not spread Christian thought where it isn't permitted. Just because your thoughts have changed doesn't change the purpose of this site. We are still here to help people leaving Christianity behind. My hope is that you will leave it behind again and we can be your tribe. 

 

Thanks,

 

DB

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, DarkBishop said:

 

I would like to reply to this more thoroughly in a few days if you don't mind Rank. But Right now I feel I owe you an apology for jumping on you. I unfortunately had a gout flare up starting Christmas eve that I eventually had to start taking steroids to quil the inflammation, so that I could work. As a result it has made me more irritable than usual. I've had a short fuse all day. Not just toward you but my family anf other members here as well. When I realized the level of anger I was feeling wasn't really warranted, I had to take a step back and decide that now is not the best time for me to be talking about your specific situation.

 

It started out with me being angry at myself for encouraging you to go but according to your OP your resolve was solid against ever believing again. And I don't think you are believing for the right reasons. It sounds more like you want to believe to please others and reconnect with your "tribe" than actually believing that it all happened. Or that it is factual. But we can talk about that after the effects of my medication leave in a few days. 

 

Again, I apologize if I offended you. But please continue to respect the forums and not spread Christian thought where it isn't permitted. Just because your thoughts have changed doesn't change the purpose of this site. We are still here to help people leaving Christianity behind. My hope is that you will leave it behind again and we can be your tribe. 

 

Thanks,

 

DB

 

Thanks DB- and you didn't offend me at all.  I'd say you have all taken my change of heart pretty well.  Feel free to get back to this discussion when you're ready.  And sorry about the gout- I know that's got to suck. 

 

Fair point about minding where I post.  I guess I'm going to need a review of the rules.  I was under the impression that Christians could post outside the two debate forums as long as they're not proselytizing... but I can't find that in writing.  I'm sure a mod will correct me if it becomes a problem.  Thing is that I don't have much to say right now in the debate areas.  Remember that I'm not a fundamentalist.  I don't feel the need to prove some literal truth here.

 

I'm not sure how much the "right reasons" even apply to my belief.  Because the belief that I've found- it's not really a choice.  It's just there, and I think it always has been.  I could deny it if I want to- I've posted thousands of reasons on this forum as to why I should walk away from that belief.  And yet it remains.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

I guess I'm going to need a review of the rules.  I was under the impression that Christians could post outside the two debate forums as long as they're not proselytizing...

 

Yeah, proselytizing is the big one. Otherwise I think your good. 

[RankStranger]

16 hours ago, TABA said:

Hey @RankStranger, I hope you will take these comments of mine in the spirit they are intended: honest, heartfelt, not intended as a criticism, and absolutely wishing you well…

 

I wouldn’t be honest if I said I’m not disappointed over your return to Christianity.  On a visceral level I regret losing one of our number to the faith.  It’s a loss for the tribe, a reversal of what we do and encourage here.  
 

But on a deeper level I feel like you missed an opportunity, a chance to replace aspects of your old faith with something better while moving beyond just defining yourself as an atheist.  
 

We’re all different of course, and some people can leave theistic religion behind without feeling the need to replace it with anything.  Others replace it with other mystical or spiritual beliefs and rituals, or political activism, or an exploration of other philosophies old and new, Eastern and Western, as guides for living.  Deconversion is a great opportunity to expand our horizons and that has been one of the great joys of my own journey away from theistic belief.  
 

We are social animals and when the deconverting individual only had a tribe of fellow-Christians, it’s important to find other connections.  For me, this online community has been important for years now, but I also started spending more time with a small handful of non-believing friends as well as a larger group for whom life doesn’t revolve around religion.  I certainly haven’t turned my back on Christian friends and family, but they’re now just one part of the picture and that works for me.  
 

I hope you will continue to keep an open mind, both within and without your religious experiences.  In any case, I wish you the best!

 

- TABA
 

 

 

Thanks Taba, I appreciate your concern.  I've read up on quite a few other religions, and even engaged in some practice (if meditation counts as a practice, anyway).  I can't say other people will have the same experience, but for me, meditation was a gateway drug to prayer.  And well here we are.

 

Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "something better"?  IMO that's going to be a very personal decision.  I don't know how you could objectively say there's a 'something better'... or if it would even matter if you could.

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I cannot say that I am disappointed; I would only say that you've chosen a path that, after careful consideration, I would not choose.  But, for me, one of the most damaging effects of the christian religion, and specifically of childhood indoctrination, is that it robs people of the opportunity to choose their own path based on what really works for them.  This was certainly the case in my life and experience.  I fought long and hard to overcome, or at least mitigate, the damage done by spending so much of my life on a path that was wrong for me.  I would be disappointed if I had gone through all of that only to realize it was the right path after all, and maybe I was just walking it wrong at first.

 

Still, in my opinion (and this is purely my opinion), one of the major goals in life, or secrets of success, or whatever, is to find the path that genuinely does work; and, obviously that is going to be different for each of us.  But once found, that path should lead to happiness, peace, contentment and all the rest of it.  So, as I said before, if it works for you, then work it.

 

As a bit of housekeeping, we'll monitor your posts and guide you along so we don't have any rules broken and such.  We'd like to keep you around, after all.

[TABA]

21 hours ago, RankStranger said:

Maybe you can expand on what you mean by "something better"?  IMO that's going to be a very personal decision.  I don't know how you could objectively say there's a 'something better'... or if it would even matter if you could.

I agree it’s going to be a personal decision, but we all rejected Christianity for reasons.  As well as the realization that history, science and archaeology didn’t support the Bible as truth,  we had moral objections to the doctrine of eternal suffering in Hell, whether it’s for wrongdoing or wrong belief.  Objections to God’s promotion of genocide, slavery and rape in the Bible.  I would agree with you that Christianity also promotes good things like compassion, forgiveness and the Golden Rule.  But those good things are also to be found in belief systems and ways of life that don’t also incorporate the bad stuff.  Becoming non-theistic does not mean becoming nihilist or even materialist.  Many of us have explored and benefited from exploring versions of Buddhism and other eastern religions, or learning from the wisdom of Greek philosophers who - happily - are seeing a resurgence of popularity as more people leave Christianity. 
 

I like the Prof’s emphasis on what works for each of us:

20 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Still, in my opinion (and this is purely my opinion), one of the major goals in life, or secrets of success, or whatever, is to find the path that genuinely does work; and, obviously that is going to be different for each of us.  But once found, that path should lead to happiness, peace, contentment and all the rest of it. 

 

We deconverted because we became convinced Christianity didn’t work for us and also - by the way - that it was literally untrue.  Many of us were content to replace all the dogma and theology with nothing in particular.  That works for some but doesn’t work for others.  But I’m convinced that there are plenty of alternatives to replace the aspects of Christianity that we may have missed, without going back to a belief system we had lost confidence in.  

 

Just my two cents worth. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@RankStranger

 

I hope you don't mind indulging me for a little while. I have a lot of questions. And right now your the only one that can answer those questions. I think it is important for our work here at ExC to understand why someone would return. From what you have said so far it seems to me, that your need to fulfill your tribal instincts as a human was the deciding factor and primary influence on your return to the fold. I know there is probably more to it. But would that be a correct general assessment?

 

To go along with that question. How was your relationship with your family and former church friends while being a non-believer? Did they continue to have a relationship with you and you with them? 

 

Also what is your level of belief now? You said you weren't a fundamentalist. And that is a very general term and can be interpreted differently according to what your personal definition of fundy is. Me personally (if returning ever happened) I would never be able to believe in pretty much the whole of Genesis. As a former athiest I doubt you would be like most Christians and claim scientists don't know what they are talking about. Do you still agree with science when it contradicts with stories like creation, Noah's ark, and the tower of babel? I know some Christians consider those stories metaphorical in nature. Or accept that they aren't true but other "more important" parts of the Bible are true and aren't affected by not believing in those stories. 

 

Thanks,

DB