For aik: Why I Am No Longer a Christian

[aik]

20 hours ago, TABA said:

I apologize to @aik and to our readers for waiting so long to make this response ...

 

On 3/18/2023 at 4:56 AM, aik said:

it is very painful. The doctor does it to you. But in spite of all this stuff you anyway go to the doctor and agree for an operation. Why? Because you know that the doctor will help you to get rid of a disease which leads you to death. You agree to go through all this painful procedure. Yet the doctor is considered a person who does a good thing, because he heals.

 

On 3/18/2023 at 4:56 AM, aik said:

If you agree with me and you consider that the doctor does good, so why do you blame God because of sufferings?

 

I have made this point before, @aik, and I will make it again:

Yes, necessary medical procedures can involve pain. But throughout history, the medical profession has succeeded in greatly reducing such pain and suffering. They do everything in their power to do so, because they realize that the pain and suffering do not contribute to the healing but are evils that can be reduced. But they are human and have limits to what they can do. A god like the one you worship does NOT have such limitations. An all-powerful, loving god could bring healing without pain if he chose to. But he is either unwilling to do so or unable to find a way to bring healing without pain.

TABA you are an adult maybe old man. I guess you have your grandchildren. With all my respect to you. Either you intentionally avoid responding the very point of my arguments, or you indeed see not what i mean here. 

 

In my analogy with a doctor i was showing you that sometimes a man to be healed from his disease has to pass through sufferings, i.e. restrictions, pains, diets etc., and if he tries to avoid those limitations he will never be healed. So this shows that the sufferings are necessary to be healed. They are GOOD for a sick man in this case. One cannot heal appendix with a pill, it should be deleted by surgery. Are the doctor's actions good for the patient though they bring some difficulties to him? 

 

So in our core topic of sufferings, the sin is a disease, and sufferings is the method of healing from the disease. You say, there is no sin. Let us change the name for the sake of mutual understanding. Crime! is that a proper name for murder, fornication, judging people, lying, envy, idolatry etc? You can call it a mistake, but you agree that it is a bad thing. right? It brings harm to humanity, both to the one who commits it, the same way to the one against whom it is commited. So each crime comes out from inside of a man. First he thinks about it, he has a wish toward it then he does what he has intended. 

 

So please here answer this question. If a surgical operation is good for a patient in a physical life then can you be sincere and say that sufferings can be good for a sinful man in a spiritual field? I want you to acknowledge in front of everybody that sufferings are not always bad, they can be good for a man. 

21 hours ago, TABA said:

 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 4:56 AM, aik said:

So if we want to know for sure why God allowed to happen that some people got into concentration camps, we have to know their history first, individually of each person out there, we have to know who they were before God, what did they believe and how did they live and many other things.

 

I understand your position is that every concentration camp victim either had it coming to them, or somehow needed to endure the suffering for some greater good. In the former case, this looks like a god taking revenge rather than extending mercy. This might be in character for the jealous god of the Old Testament, but it certainly doesn't resemble the loving message of Jesus. In the latter case, can you suggest what good might have been accomplished by the suffering of an innocent child like Anne Frank, and the many other children who suffered as she did? Was it somehow all worth it for them in the end?  Was there not a more merciful way for God to accomplish it?  Was he unable, or was he unwilling?

 

To refer to this issue let me just raise a question. Did Father love his holy Son when He sent him to crucifixion? According to the Bible He did. Because we may speak about God and his Son only based upon the Bible. Because there is no God and no Son of God outside the Bible. So did the Father love his holy Son when He sent him to crucifixion? The Bible says Yes, He did. What kind of a love is this? This is sacrificial love. The God of Old Testament has a sacrificial love toward men. It is proven by Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross. If you do not accept it, it is your side, you have the right of either choice. But if anyone accepts the Bible, he as well accepts the love of God as it is described in the Bible. 

 

If you have children then you know that sometimes a father has to restrict his children, sometimes children consider such father a sever and terrible person. They are not able to understand. why? Because of their age, experience. Compare now our human experience with what God has. How do we try to comprehend this God which is over our thinking ability? If we could comprehend him then He would not be God. It is God's concept. Either you accept it or you do not. The situation is not changed. You are free to choose for yourself.

 

22 hours ago, TABA said:

 

 

On 3/18/2023 at 4:56 AM, aik said:

I do deny that animals existed and suffered from pain and disease for millions of years before humans appeared. 

 

If a science contradicts Genesis, then you can bravely throw such a science into a garbage

 

There, dear reader, is what it is like to have one's critical faculties suppressed because of religious faith:  scientific conclusions are accepted if they are compatible with Christianity, but if they are not, they are "bravely" thrown into the garbage.  The problem, of course, is which version of religious faith do you decide to give credence to?   Jewish?  Christian?  Islamic?  Most believers never even ask themselves this question, but just adopt the faith of their parents or the society they grew up in.  That seems like a sound basis for deciding what is true, doesn't it?  

 

I do not agree. It is more sound to believe that the almighty creator has made everithing and he lives with his creation rather that that a human comes from a monkey, or a stone became a living organism, or that somehow by chance!! everything is so adjusted, tuned so accuraly. If you ask "How do you prove evolution?" The answer will be because of evidences we know it. If we continue asking "what evidenses?" The answer will be (for example) "Mutations make new kinds". If we continu asking "What new kind in practice was brought because of such mutations?" There will be no answer. I am short here. But when you hear what those foolish people say about their evidences for evolution, it seems that they surely have proofs. But when you get into it, and search, you will find out that those are only theories. Theories, nothing more. A scientific theory, pseudoscience. It is not a science. It is a religion, philosophy. Call whatever you want. But not science. Here I am throwing into a garbage a false theory, hypothesis, fantasies of an old man, or a child. And the name of such a theory is evolution, big bang, atheism. I think you are smarter than this. 

 

The real Science is limited. Its function is to discover and analyse, to give an information. And it develops in discoveries. Yes, it is very useful. It gives us inventions, innovations etc. But it only discovers what has been previousely established.

 

When Newton find out the law of gravity it does not say that he made gravity. He only discovered. But the law of gravity had been made far long ago by the Lawgiver.

 

Try to think over this. Why there is a family, a husband and a wife. Why do they bring children become parents? Why do an infant comes to this world being a little tiny man not a grown human? Why there is hierarchy ever? Why there is sawing and reaping? In a chance you would never get all this in such connection one to another. What does a pain of a bearing woman speak about? Why it is so painful to bring a new life into the world? And so many such questions, the answers to which you can find only in God the Creator and Saviour. All these things speak about his love, salvation, way of thinking, eternal things. 

 

So please answer this. Is a birth of a child a good thing or a bad one? if it is good then why it is so painful for both a mother and the child? If it is bad then why are you born to this world? Why do you live then?

 

I am not arguing here, just as a friendly speach. My goal is to change your thinking first over suffering. That you assign that suffering is bad, and the God who allows that suffering is also bad. It makes no sense. 

 

By the way, I would like to see also you opinion over my analogy of understanding who Mother Tereza was in the world. This was made to reveal that two different conditions can describe the same thing in two different ways, opposite ways. Why does it happen? 

 

==================

With a big love to you in the name of Jesus Christ.

Let the Lord be praised.

[aik]

Having read my answer one could think that i try to praise sufferings in general. I do not. I give my answer as a defence against thinking that sufferings are evil and there is no alternative. My point is that sufferings are not always evil. There is another thing which is always evil. The sin. But it is not our topic now. 

 

TABA in your first post you said that sufferings is one of your reasons to deny God. Let us keep the tie, and be in line with our topic. 

 

My purpose is to distroy your first argument about denying God because of sufferings. I want you to admit in front of everybody that sufferings are not always evil. And if yes, it is not a reason to reject God. 

 

With great respect and love

In the name of Jesus.

[TABA]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:23 PM, aik said:

In my analogy with a doctor i was showing you that sometimes a man to be healed from his disease has to pass through sufferings, i.e. restrictions, pains, diets etc., and if he tries to avoid those limitations he will never be healed. So this shows that the sufferings are necessary to be healed.

 

The healing is not CAUSED by the suffering.  Medical science has continually REDUCED or even eliminated suffering in many cases.  Example:  having a limb amputated in the 21st century involves FAR LESS pain than in the 19th century.  And yet, the outcomes are far more successful.  During this time, God, if he exists, has not changed.  But humans have made huge scientific progress for good.  We have done a great deal to reduce suffering.  A loving god would surely do as much, if he existed.

 

 

 

 

On 4/14/2023 at 12:23 PM, aik said:

So please here answer this question. If a surgical operation is good for a patient in a physical life then can you be sincere and say that sufferings can be good for a sinful man in a spiritual field? I want you to acknowledge in front of everybody that sufferings are not always bad, they can be good for a man. 

 

Of course I don't believe in "sin".  I DO acknowledge that suffering in itself can SOMETIMES lead to good outcomes, yes.  But there is an overwhelming amount of suffering that does NOT lead to good.  It only triggers more suffering, as in most wars and conflicts.  Revenge upon revenge, atrocity upon atrocity.

 

 

 

 

On 4/14/2023 at 9:59 PM, aik said:

I want you to admit in front of everybody that sufferings are not always evil. And if yes, it is not a reason to reject God. 

 

I said it above: some suffering can lead to a greater good.  But an all-powerful god could figure out a way to achieve good without suffering.  Aik, if you could find some way for your children to grow, to learn lessons and to be healed, all without suffering, would you do it?  Of course you would, because you love your children, and you would do anything in your power for them.  You are better than your god.

 

Now let me ask you a question, aik:  You believe that animals did not exist and suffer at all before The Fall in the garden.  I assume you believe that animals have existed and have suffered ever since.  Why do animals suffer?  Is it so they can learn important lessons?  Is it because of sin?  

 

[TABA]

Hello @aik!  I hope you are well.  We have noticed that you have been visiting the forums since my last post above, but you have not responded to it.  We are patient but also curious to  hear your thoughts.  My colleague @TheRedneckProfessor has also started a Topic on Suffering in the Lions' Den.   You will find a link to it below.

 

Personally, I think the Prof expresses himself on this matter better than I have been able to do, so I will not be offended if you choose to respond to his comments rather than mine!  It's not about individuals: it's about the very profound ideas that we routinely address in this community.  Other than @Edgarcito, you are the only currently-active Christian among us, so we are hoping you can continue to make the best case you can for your beliefs.

 

Best Regards,

TABA

 

 

[aik]

5 hours ago, TABA said:

Hello @aik!  I hope you are well.  We have noticed that you have been visiting the forums since my last post above, but you have not responded to it.  We are patient but also curious to  hear your thoughts.  My colleague @TheRedneckProfessor has also started a Topic on Suffering in the Lions' Den.   You will find a link to it below.

 

Personally, I think the Prof expresses himself on this matter better than I have been able to do, so I will not be offended if you choose to respond to his comments rather than mine!  It's not about individuals: it's about the very profound ideas that we routinely address in this community.  Other than @Edgarcito, you are the only currently-active Christian among us, so we are hoping you can continue to make the best case you can for your beliefs.

 

Best Regards,

TABA

 

 

Hello Taba,

 

I appreciate your patience. 

I think that some of you here could become a good company to me in various activities of mine. Making barbecues, eating ice creams, reading and discussing books...you are good people. Even when some of you can roar on me i understand, cause i have been roaring on many, but only the grace of Jesus saved me. And if he was able to save me from my iniquities, so he surely can do the same to you. Praised be the name of Jesus.

 

Last week i lost my uncle. He lived in another region. He was 71. The while i was traveling after him to bring him back to home, i learnt that one of my friends from my surrounding, a very good shoe master, he passed away. And i was not in the city to be there on funerals. Then i was told that a couple of days ago one of the most powerful ministers of our church in Armenia was killed. For evangelizing, right in the capital city of Armenia. But we accept it, and we are ready to go on with the word of God on our mouth. A seed fallen in soil will not bear fruit until it dies. 

 

So these were my business in the last weeks.  And i have my junior uncle visited me from Armenia, so i need a couple of more days to send him to Armenia and that i will come back to you, if God wishes. 

 

See you soon.

 

 

[aik]

Dear TABA,

 

What questions about sufferings are left that i had not covered yet here? We both agree that sufferings are not always evil. Sometimes it can play a good role, though ultimately it is a result of sin. So it will happen on the earth till the Lord comes and judge the satan and (if we do not get into details) takes his children to his eternal Kingdom. 

 

Shall we stay here? if yes  tell me please what made you to think that there is no God if there are sufferings? Illogical statement. If I am wrong in understanding you, please forgive me and correct.

[TABA]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:15 PM, aik said:

Hello Taba,

 

I appreciate your patience. 

I think that some of you here could become a good company to me in various activities of mine. Making barbecues, eating ice creams, reading and discussing books...you are good people.

Thanks aik.  You are a good man too, and it would be nice to do barbecue and ice cream with you.  Unfortunately  hanging out online is the best we can do for now!  It’s a pity that these days, differences of opinion seem to make people hostile toward each other, even when the issues involved are of much less importance than the existence of god, Christianity and salvation.  It’s good that we can disagree profoundly and still be civil and even friendly!  
 

On 5/10/2023 at 2:53 AM, aik said:

What questions about sufferings are left that i had not covered yet here? We both agree that sufferings are not always evil. Sometimes it can play a good role, though ultimately it is a result of sin. So it will happen on the earth till the Lord comes and judge the satan and (if we do not get into details) takes his children to his eternal Kingdom. 

 

Shall we stay here? if yes  tell me please what made you to think that there is no God if there are sufferings? Illogical statement. If I am wrong in understanding you, please forgive me and correct.

Yes, I think we need to stay here for a while longer, because we are not understanding each other…

 

You have children, yes?  You love your children, needless to say.  Suppose you have a little son and you are out for a walk together.  You come upon a small dog standing on the path.  The dog approaches you, wagging his tail.  Suddenly your little son grabs a stick and starts to beat the dog, over and over again.  The dog starts to snarl at your son.  You have the ability to drag your son away from the dog, but you decide the boy needs to learn a lesson.  The dog is able to bite the child’s leg, and you allow it.  It’s a small dog with a rather small bite, so he’ll recover soon.  But being bitten painfully makes your son realize that attacking a dog is a bad idea, and he’ll never forget this.  So you’ve allowed your son to experience suffering, which you could have prevented, so he will learn a valuable lesson.  If you were all-powerful, you could have found another way to teach your son not to attack dogs, but at least a valuable lesson has been learned and your son quickly recovers from the bite, because you went to the clinic and had it cleaned and treated with antiseptic to prevent infection.  

 

Now suppose later on your son is playing outside, falls down and gets a cut on his arm.  The next day you realize the cut has become badly infected.  He is in pain and you know that if nothing is done the infection can spread, threading even his life.  You could take him to the hospital and get the infection treated and cured, but you don’t.  In his pain and suffering, your child begs you to do something.  But you don’t.  His suffering continues, and gets even worse.  You do nothing because you believe suffering teaches valuable lessons.  His suffering becomes  unbearable.  Still you do nothing. Maybe you think “He must have done something wrong. Maybe I or his mother did something wrong.  Suffering teaches lessons and is sometimes needed as a punishment”.  So you ignore his cries for help.  

 

Of course you wouldn’t do nothing!  You’re a good man, aik, but even a bad man wouldn’t stand by and let his child suffer like this.  You love him, it breaks your heart to see him suffer so much, and you know his infection and pain can be treated and cured.  You would never be such a terrible father.  You would never let him suffer agonizing pain in retribution for something you did.  If you saw another parent act like this you would be appalled and would probably intervene. 

 

You would do everything in your power to help your child.  You are better than the god you believe in, my friend.

[aik]

On 5/11/2023 at 4:15 PM, TABA said:

than the god you believe in

i do not believe in god which you represent TABA. 

 

"To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty." Job 6:14

"Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD." Levit 19:14

"Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep." Rom. 12:15

"But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" 1 John 3:17

 

This is the God revealed in Jesus in fullness, in whom I believe. 

 

I wish to ask you. Were those people to whom God applied His judgement and destroyed, were they showing love and compassion toward men? Were they doing good or bad? If they were doing bad and God judged them, then God is righteous. Every single court will confirm what I say. So what is wrong with God's judgements then? 

 

But if you die for your sins and be born again for God, you will be forgiven and not judged, but changed from inside, and have a new knowledge which you can never get from any kind of university of this world. 

 

I have to go now, cannot continue right now. See you later. 

[aik]

I d like to add something @TABA,

 

Have you ever read the Lord's prayer? I am sure you have. 

 

⁹Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. ¹⁰Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. ¹¹Give us this day our daily bread. ¹²And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. ¹³And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 6:9-13

© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2023.

 

We speak about sufferings, which can never disprove God's existence. Can you see where Jesus says "deliver us from evil"? What kind of evil is he talking about you think? Is anywhere in the NT Jesus promoting gospel of suffering-free christianity? If he himself went on the cross. He never told us that we, the believers, will live comfortable life. You understand what I mean. Comfort of a believer is in doing what the will of God is. Because God is not only saving us, but also those who are in the world, that is why sufferings come around. So if I do not want to suffer, then I should stay in my house living my life with my family and friends, working for myself and my family, doing charity sometimes. But if I am convinced that Jesus is the truth, then I cannot stay at home while others go to hell because of there sins. 

 

This is what I understand from Jesus. And I believe in it. I know in whom I believe. So if I follow Jesus, then I do it by my faith not by force. In the world there are believers of two types, those who walk along the broad way, and those who choose to walk on the narrow path, and also there is the rest of the world. Only on the narrow path a man will have full of life and peace and rejoice. It is the path of suffering, fights, victories, falls and raises together with Jesus, and in case of faithfulness eternal life together with Jesus. How do I know it? Jesus died and resurrected from the dead. History shows that He was what He had said about Himself. 

 

How did you understand the Bible when you were a church attender? How did you believe in Jesus? Do you know the Lord's prayer by heart? 

[TABA]

Hello @aik.  I look forward to responding but I am on a big trip with my family right now and am staying offline as much as possible.  I should get back with you late next week.  
 

Regards

TABA

[aik]

2 hours ago, TABA said:

Hello @aik.  I look forward to responding but I am on a big trip with my family right now and am staying offline as much as possible.  I should get back with you late next week.  
 

Regards

TABA

Take care TABA, you are doing good. and I am happy for you to have an opportunity to spend your time with your family. 

[aik]

On 6/13/2023 at 7:11 PM, TABA said:

Hello @aik.  I look forward to responding but I am on a big trip with my family right now and am staying offline as much as possible.  I should get back with you late next week.  
 

Regards

TABA

Hello taba, why don't you answer? Is everything ok with you?

[TABA]

4 minutes ago, aik said:

Hello taba, why don't you answer? Is everything ok with you?

Hi aik, everything is fine with me - thanks.   I’ve been busy since I got back from my trip.  Also there’s been a lot of activity here lately and the focus has been on helping the new people with their deconversion journeys.  There’s still plenty of discussion in the Lions Den!

[aik]

6 minutes ago, TABA said:

Hi aik, everything is fine with me - thanks.   I’ve been busy since I got back from my trip.  Also there’s been a lot of activity here lately and the focus has been on helping the new people with their deconversion journeys.  There’s still plenty of discussion in the Lions Den!

Lions are unable to eat daniel. They only roar and roar, like dogs which only are allowed to bark because they are bound with a chain. Nothing consrructive. 

[TABA]

2 minutes ago, aik said:

Lions are unable to eat daniel. They only roar and roar. Nothing consrructive. 

This community has been helping people - people like myself- gain confidence and peace in their rejection of Christianity for more than 20 years now.  I consider that to be very constructive and successful.  

[aik]

7 minutes ago, TABA said:

This community has been helping people - people like myself- gain confidence and peace in their rejection of Christianity for more than 20 years now.  I consider that to be very constructive and successful.  

You are like bad psychologists, who take a man out of mud and throw him into dirty water. This is the result of your job.

[TABA]

 

Aik, we don’t expect you to approve of what we do here.  We remain dedicated to doing it nevertheless.   A great many people are grateful for how this community helped them.  

[aik]

2 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

Aik, we don’t expect you to approve of what we do here.  We remain dedicated to doing it nevertheless.   A great many people are grateful for how this community helped them.  

Ok. You strive for good according to your thoughts.. It is already some bridge for us. 

[aik]

5 minutes ago, aik said:

Ok. You strive for good according to your thoughts.. It is already some bridge for us. 

I wish to make a point in thus den, that all what i read about your former practices of christianity in most part was a mistake, and not according to the gospel. And the result of course are soules deconverting with dissapointment. I am thinking over opening a new topic for it, but i do not know how to name it and what content should be given.

[TABA]

11 minutes ago, aik said:

Ok. You strive for good according to your thoughts.. It is already some bridge for us. 

And I should point out that we do not try to deconvert people who are happy in their Christian faith and who are not interested in deconverting.  Those people do not come here, except for those like yourself who come to debate us and maybe even hope to win us back.  The people who are helped by this community are those for whom Christianity has been a burden - even a curse - instead of a blessing.  Or those who have simply decided that Christianity is not where truth is to be found and who want to leave it behind.  

[Hierophant]

Aik - please do. I look forward to it.

[aik]

6 hours ago, TABA said:

And I should point out that we do not try to deconvert people who are happy in their Christian faith and who are not interested in deconverting.  Those people do not come here, except for those like yourself who come to debate us and maybe even hope to win us back.  The people who are helped by this community are those for whom Christianity has been a burden - even a curse - instead of a blessing.  Or those who have simply decided that Christianity is not where truth is to be found and who want to leave it behind.  

Ok. It makes sence. I will think over this. 

[aik]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:29 PM, TABA said:

And I should point out that we do not try to deconvert people who are happy in their Christian faith and who are not interested in deconverting.  Those people do not come here, except for those like yourself who come to debate us and maybe even hope to win us back.  The people who are helped by this community are those for whom Christianity has been a burden - even a curse - instead of a blessing.  Or those who have simply decided that Christianity is not where truth is to be found and who want to leave it behind.  

The bible says that christian faith brings happiness to a believer, and nothing else is able to do it in such a manner. But the bible also shows why some people may be not happy being a christian. Aee you interested to know it in details?

[TABA]

OK @aik, let's get our discussion back on track.  I'm sorry I've been absent / busy for the past few weeks, including making some of our new members feel welcome.  

 

So back at the start of June, we were talking about suffering...

 

On 6/1/2023 at 11:16 PM, aik said:

I wish to ask you. Were those people to whom God applied His judgement and destroyed, were they showing love and compassion toward men? Were they doing good or bad? If they were doing bad and God judged them, then God is righteous. Every single court will confirm what I say. So what is wrong with God's judgements then? 

 

Certainly in the Bible, God punishes some people who have clearly done wrong.  Is it your point that EVERY person who suffers is merely being punished for wrong-doing?  In other words, they had it coming?

 

[aik]

16 hours ago, TABA said:

Is it your point that EVERY person who suffers is merely being punished for wrong-doing?

No.

 

I asked AI to help me with translation of a poem from russian into english. For you.

 

If you don't mind, I will post it here. It is a big one, but it worth to be read by you concerning our topic here. When you say that you have read it, I will come again here with my answer to your last post TABA.