Peanut Gallery for “Why I am No Longer a Christian” (TABA / aik)

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, aik said:

You, personally you, will never have evidence Walter. Do not ask me again for one. 

 

Aik, you do not get to dictate what we say.  We have no reason to believe you and we have no reason to believe the Bible.  We will keep asking for evidence, and there is nothing you can do about it.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, aik said:

You, personally you, will never have evidence Walter. Do not ask me again for one. 

 

Why not?

 

Please explain, aik.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

7 hours ago, aik said:

You, personally you, will never have evidence Walter. Do not ask me again for one. 

aik, none of us have the evidence because the "hard", or literal evidence does not exist.  God and Jesus are concepts that got conditioned, or "programmed" in your mind, and in our minds.  It is a thought.  A feeling.  An emotion.  There is no hard evidence.  It is pure belief, or what is also called faith.  It is all mental. And perhaps a delusion??   If God or the holy spirit is communicating with you, you are delusional. 

 

We have also had these belief/faith concepts in our mind in the past, perhaps somewhat different than yours, but they were there.  But for different reasons we began to question the concepts in our mind and began to look at the sources of that "faith".  The faith came from the myths we were told, and have been told for so long, that many now take it as literal truth.  The evidence for God and the Bible being his word is not there.  It all has to be taken on faith!  

 

And arguing with you is making me think even harder, and is having the effect of me having even more faith in my own conclusions.  So you are having the opposite effect on me that you are wanting to have.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

18 hours ago, aik said:

You, personally you, will never have evidence Walter. Do not ask me again for one. 

Aik,

 

Walter gave you a heart felt reply. It is true. Why should we love Jesus more than those we see in our lives who we know love us by their actions? 

 

In the Bible Jesus promised us he would come back. That God would NEVER lay any burden on us more than we could bare. That he would be a help in a time of need. That he was in all points tempted as we, yet without sin. He has the power to harden hearts and soften hearts according to the bible. 

 

I can not say that Jesus was with me in my Christian walk because when these trials and tribulations crossed my path I would pray. I believed he was a true help in times of need. Yet he let wives cheat. Friends stab me in the back. He let illnesses prevail. If the God I worship shows no interest in helping me. Why should I worship him?

 

In the bible there is a story of Elijah. 

 

1 kings 18

 

25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.

26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the Lord that was broken down.

31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word

37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

38 Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God.

40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

 

This was once one of my favorite stories and favorite verses to quote while preaching my God's words. I believed in a POWERFUL God. One that was not deaf or dumb but actually ANSWERED prayers!!!!!

 

Yet it seemed every time I called on him. His actions were those of BaaL and not that of a Powerful God who answered prayers. No. HE IS JUST THE SAME DEAF DUMB GOD THAT THE PROPHETS OF BAAL PRAYED TO!!!!

 

No answers just silence.

 

If God loves me.

If God doesn't want me to perish.

If God truly doesn't want me to burn in hell. (Not that there is a hell)

And if Jesus truly died for me, then he needs to show me his power. Because as far as I'm concerned, Its just me and mine that are actually in this together.

 

And I will love those people that I Know love me because it is something I can see and know is real. 

 

Why should I love a powerless and absent God more than my own children?

 

There is no reason. 

 

Dark Bishop

 

[Wertbag]

In addition to the points raised, I would say the lack of unity within Christianity was a major hurdle for me. So many different denominations, each with their own contradictory views on what the right answer should be. All claiming to be led by the same holy spirit and yet led to different answers. 

You have the great schism breaking Catholics from orthodox, and the later breakaway of the Protestant groups that led to centuries of bloody Christian on Christian warfare.

You have Christians arguing on the definition of what makes someone a true Christian, with groups like JWs and Mormons believing in the same God and Jesus but being labelled false by other groups.

You have different bibles with more than a dozen books of difference between them. With some people saying those works are the word of God while others saying they are only man-made. Even if you can select a version of the bible, you still have arguments about translations and interpretation which no one agrees on.

There is no agreement on fundamental issues like hell, salvation, the trinity or morals. 

What we see is a disconnected, argument filled and quick to label church. To an outsider none of this should give confidence that anyone has the right answer. It makes it all appear very man-made and not divinely led. A unified church with one set of beliefs, one holy book and one message would be very strong. Unfortunately we don't see that.

[RichDellaValle]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:02 PM, aik said:

So the choice comes when alternative is offered. Alternative was Jesus. And i had no freedom before i heard about jesus. World never will offer jesus to us. It hides jesus and at the same time it hides alternative to sinful life. 

 

 

You say Jesus is the alternative to evil, including being your savior from the pain of hell. I’m sure you believe that Jesus paid for your sins. However, Jesus often claimed he was the “son of man,” a term used in the Old Testament as a metaphor or idiom for mere mortals/human beings. See Num 23:19, Job 25:6, Psalm 8:4, Sirach 17:30, and it is also used to refer to prophets such as Ezekiel and Daniel (See Dan 8:17). The twist here, though, is Psalm 146:3, which says, “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.” KJV. Other versions say, “in whom there is no salvation.”

 

Jesus admitted he was a mere mortal. No one believed Jesus was God (specifically the Jews, who would have stoned him and his followers to death for such blasphemy) until he was declared so in 325 by the corrupt Roman Catholic church. That act was done because someone figured out that the Hebrew Bible said only God could forgive sins. So they made Jesus God to cover up their error. You should know that the gospel writers always depicted God the Father as greater than the son. So how can you possibly believe that Jesus is the alternative to evil and your savior? The whole Trinity doctrine is utter nonsense. Peace.

[aik]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:36 PM, RichDellaValle said:

That act was done because someone figured out that the Hebrew Bible said only God could forgive sins. So they made Jesus God to cover up their error.

A very igorant way of thinking. 

 

What refers to Nicea Council I have to say that for example before the council for about 200 years already in Armenia there had been a episcopate and a church. Though Armenia generally was a pagan country by that time ( before 301 year). So we have true knowledge that the church befor the 4th century started had believed in Trinity and kept teaching about the Father and the Son and the Spirit Holy. Not only in Armenia, but in churches of other nations also. 

 

Arianism came to a scene and there appeared a need for making a statement of the true faith to condemn arianistic heresy. But times were severe, ministeres were exciled and killed, therefore the Nicea Council occured later than it had been planned. Many of bishops had wounds, they were tortured by Deocletianus persecutions. 

 

 

On 5/7/2023 at 4:36 PM, RichDellaValle said:

You say Jesus is the alternative to evil, including being your savior from the pain of hell. I’m sure you believe that Jesus paid for your sins. However, Jesus often claimed he was the “son of man,” a term used in the Old Testament as a metaphor or idiom for mere mortals/human beings. See Num 23:19, Job 25:6, Psalm 8:4, Sirach 17:30, and it is also used to refer to prophets such as Ezekiel and Daniel (See Dan 8:17). The twist here, though, is Psalm 146:3, which says, “Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.” KJV. Other versions say, “in whom there is no salvation.”

If you really need to get into knowledge about who the Son of Man is according to the Bible, then I can show you that the Son of Man is none but the God himself, merely devine nature, immortal, all power and so on. So you quote the Bible correct saying that the phrase son of man refered to just a man. Yes, it does. But there is another Son of Man referring not to a man but to God. This very phrase was used by Jesus saying about it. 

[RichDellaValle]

Aik – So you say my way of thinking is ignorant. I must say I posited no thought that you could be referring to. I quoted verses straight out of the Bible to make the claim I put to you. You ignore scripture and substitute your “thinking” much to the admonition in Mark 7:8-9 – “You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.” He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition.”

 

Regarding the Trinity: If Jesus’ apostles advocated in any way that Jesus was God, what do you think the Jews would have done to them? (hint: stone them to death) That is the problem with Christians; you assume you know everything, disregard scripture, and twist things to fit your dogma. It is generally, although erroneously, supposed that the doctrine of the Trinity is of Christian origin. Nearly every nation of antiquity possessed a similar doctrine. You can do the research and discover that on your own! The early Catholic theologian St. Jerome testifies unequivocally, ‘All the ancient nations believed in the Trinity.’” I’ll help you out. For more information, go to https://sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/wscs/wscs29.htm. s

 

You say that God is also the son of man, but what evidence do you present? I know Christians are averse to quoting scripture because that details some effort. Christians prefer to pontificate hot air hoping to intimidate their opponent. I’ve read the Old Testament many times and have yet to stumble upon such a declaration.

[DOA]

It's nuts for Christians to say god is in control.  If that's the case - it's no wonder Christianity is taking a nosedive.  Why would anybody want anything to do with a god when this place is overrun with so much evil.

[DOA]

On 6/1/2023 at 11:16 PM, aik said:

i do not believe in god which you represent TABA. 

 

"To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty." Job 6:14

"Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD." Levit 19:14

"Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep." Rom. 12:15

"But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" 1 John 3:17

 

This is the God revealed in Jesus in fullness, in whom I believe. 

 

I wish to ask you. Were those people to whom God applied His judgement and destroyed, were they showing love and compassion toward men? Were they doing good or bad? If they were doing bad and God judged them, then God is righteous. Every single court will confirm what I say. So what is wrong with God's judgements then? 

 

But if you die for your sins and be born again for God, you will be forgiven and not judged, but changed from inside, and have a new knowledge which you can never get from any kind of university of this world. 

 

I have to go now, cannot continue right now. See you later. 

So you believe Jesus is God and believe in a Trinity?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, aik said:

I wish to make a point in thus den, that all what i read about your former practices of christianity in most part was a mistake, and not according to the gospel. And the result of course are soules deconverting with dissapointment. I am thinking over opening a new topic for it, but i do not know how to name it and what content should be given.

Aik,

 

This is just your way of rationalizing our deconversions based on what you believe. 

 

This is basically just another "no true Scotsman" argument. 

 

Your God is all powerful and can never lose one of his "true Christians". So we must not have gone to the "right" church. Therefore we must not have been "true" Christians, we just thought we were. 

 

That explains everything right?

 

No, if you have looked at the testimonials there are representatives from denominations all over America. And further. We have some members from Europe and New Zealand.

 

We have people who deconverted at all ages as well. 

 

You are from Russia. Have you never seen a brother or sister you thought were close to God, leave the church? If you did. What was the excuse then? Did they just one day decide to love sin more than the bible? 

 

You are just making yourself feel better about your God. Because you want to continue to believe it is impossible for your God not to be real and everything you ever imagined. 

 

So what is different about your church that makes it the only one that is actually getting it right? 

 

DB

[aik]

32 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Aik,

 

This is just your way of rationalizing our deconversions based on what you believe. 

 

This is basically just another "no true Scotsman" argument. 

 

Your God is all powerful and can never lose one of his "true Christians". So we must not have gone to the "right" church. Therefore we must not have been "true" Christians, we just thought we were. 

 

That explains everything right?

 

No, if you have looked at the testimonials there are representatives from denominations all over America. And further. We have some members from Europe and New Zealand.

 

We have people who deconverted at all ages as well. 

 

You are from Russia. Have you never seen a brother or sister you thought were close to God, leave the church? If you did. What was the excuse then? Did they just one day decide to love sin more than the bible? 

 

You are just making yourself feel better about your God. Because you want to continue to believe it is impossible for your God not to be real and everything you ever imagined. 

 

So what is different about your church that makes it the only one that is actually getting it right? 

 

DB

I was not saying that a christian was not a true christian. I say, there were mistakes, that should be discussed to see reasons. I have many mistakes, you have many of them. And if i am in belief it is not my ability, but the grace of god. I just wish to point on reasons which could force to fall. Don't  you like to discuss such things?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, aik said:

I was not saying that a christian was not a true christian. I say, there were mistakes, that should be discussed to see reasons. I have many mistakes, you have many of them. And if i am in belief it is not my ability, but the grace of god. I just wish to point on reasons which could force to fall. Don't  you like to discuss such things?

Yes.  By all means, start a new thread in the Lion's Den and make your case.  We are more than happy to offer our input, and correction, of course, as needed.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

14 minutes ago, aik said:

I was not saying that a christian was not a true christian. I say, there were mistakes, that should be discussed to see reasons. I have many mistakes, you have many of them. And if i am in belief it is not my ability, but the grace of god. I just wish to point on reasons which could force to fall. Don't  you like to discuss such things?

Yes I do. Let's discuss them

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, aik said:

The bible says that christian faith brings happiness to a believer,

The bible also says a person will be blessed if they bash a baby's brains out against the stones.  I'll pass.  Thanks.

[Hierophant]

1 hour ago, aik said:

The bible says that christian faith brings happiness to a believer, and nothing else is able to do it in such a manner. But the bible also shows why some people may be not happy being a christian. Aee you interested to know it in details?

 

Are you going to start the thread on what a Real Christian is? 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

28 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Twisted, sick logic.

Be silent, my friend, for the lord's ways

Are mysterious and shit

And even if you understood them

You wouldn't like them, not one bit.

[Casualfanboy16]

16 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Be silent, my friend, for the lord's ways

Are mysterious and shit

And even if you understood them

You wouldn't like them, not one bit.

This is some Dr. Seuss type shit. I love it.

[aik]

On 7/28/2023 at 7:41 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

On 7/28/2023 at 7:11 PM, Weezer said:

Twisted, sick logic.

Be silent, my friend, for the lord's ways

Are mysterious and shit

And even if you understood them

You wouldn't like them, not one bit.

Twisted sick logic is this: "there is no god because i do not see him". @Weezer

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, aik said:

Twisted sick logic is this: "there is no god because i do not see him". @Weezer

 

I doubt any of us ever actually used that "logic."  As I've tried to explain to you, we were all once christians exactly like you.  Many of us "saw" the same "evidence" for god that you see, "felt" the same "presence" of god that you feel.  We didn't just wake up one day and decide to stop believing.  Journey would have been pissed if we had; because they explicitly forbade us from doing do.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

28 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Journey would have been pissed if we had; because they explicitly forbade us from doing do.

Just so AIK isn't to confused. 

 

 

[freshstart]

As TABA summed up . . .

Recall the story where the child was killed to prevent him from growing up and failing to be saved, whether by evildoing or lack of faith in the right god.  If this was a good thing, why are the majority of people in the world allowed to grow to adulthood when most of them are not "saved in Christ".  Would a just and righteous god not have pushed them off the bridge in childhood too?  Why would he pass up such an act of mercy?  (I would also add, why would Christians be so incensed over abortion?  All these unborns are being potentially saved from hell!) Because it's all nonsense, that's why!  The reality is that people do bad things and people do good things.  The Earth gives us life but also cruelly snatches it away.  The laws of physics play no favorites.  THAT is why creatures suffer: the good, the bad, Christians, Muslims, agnostics and atheists, men, women and children, cats and dogs.  There are forces in the universe - and maybe outside of it - that we may never understand.  But the idea of an OmniGod - all loving, all seeing, all powerful, simply does not add up.  At least one of these attributes must not be true, and then what is left would not be the God of the Bible or the Quran either one.  People are welcome to do whatever mental gymnastics they like to keep the illusion going, but that, in the end, is all it is.

 

I don't really have a problem with people trying to make sense of these existential conundrums.  The fact that humans are conscious and seem to have an innate desire to "make sense of it all" is a curious thing, and in my humble opinion, these questions are to be explored rather than oppressed or written off as not worthy of philosophical, spiritual or even scientific exploration. 

What bothers me is Christians like @Aik who have the audacity to (1) think they have the most important existential questions definitively answered in the bible, (2) believe the bible is a reliable source of information (when clearly that is proven to be untrue), (3) believe the bible was "inspired by god," just because the bible says so - circular logic, and (4) actually believe they know the mind of their alleged creator enough to fill in the biblical gaps, interpret what is not clear, and to do the bidding on behalf of their pretend-god because he is unable to give any answers on his own. To add to the confusion, most Christians do not interpret every verse in the bible in exactly the same way.  

 

In short, maybe there are reasons for suffering in the world, but Christianity does not provide any answers, other than "God's ways are not our ways!"   If Christians are happy with that dead-end answer, fine.  And if scientists are happy with saying its all just physics, that's fine too.  But I personally think there is some middle ground to be explored.  If its one thing I learned from finally opening my eyes to the lies of Christianity, it is to remain open-minded with some measure of skepticism.  Christians like Aik are just not capable of that, which is why I rarely engage with him.  In some ways I feel sorry for Aik because he is unaware that he has been brainwashed and he feels further compelled to do the work that god cannot do himself (trying to "save" heathen souls). 

[TABA]

1 hour ago, freshstart said:

(I would also add, why would Christians be so incensed over abortion?  All these unborns are being potentially saved from hell!) 

There is no escaping that this follows logically from orthodox (with a small ‘o’) Christian teaching.

[midniterider]

15 hours ago, aik said:

Twisted sick logic is this: "there is no god because i do not see him". @Weezer

 

 

I dont see a Flying Spaghetti Monster... I guess there must be one, regardless.

[aik]

True is the Bible when it says that 'white hair is glory for those who have fear of God'. Again I come to a conclusion that not every man with white hairs have that glory. 

 

Your logic. Read and laugh at yourselves. But as soon as you weep your salvation will start. 

 

When your dress becomes dirty you put it into a washing machine to wash it. But according to your logic you should love wearing dirty cloth, and to stink well to show other people how smart you are and how stupid are those who wash their clothes. But you do not do this i think.

 

This is your logic. The logic of bums. But instead of changing your mind, you prove yourself to be right. Spiritually you are like those bums who decide to stay outside in the street homeless with dirty clothes stinking well. Washing of your brainis is something in which you have need. You are needy of being washed. As many others and everyone needs to be washed. So some people decided to go to the one who can wash not only their brains, but especialy prior to the brains the got washed their spirit from sins. They saw that being washed and smelling nice is a quite good thing, so only a foolish and the most stupid man can leave that state and go back to dirt againg. Am I wrong here? Su ch people who decided to stay in a washed state were called christians in some city at some moment of time. Since then they are called christians. The washed people. I love cleanness. I teach my children to be clean. Because God is for a clean state. 

 

But you are not like them when you mock the word "brain washing" or you mock the people who decided to  be washed. So by this you state for yourselves that you decide to stay in your dirts and to stink, spiritually. And you do this, and you try to convince others, spiritual kids, who are not able to discern their right from their left, to make them like yoiu, instead that yoiu should be the first running to a spiritual shower or basin to be washed. This is your state. Shame on you all. 

 

You have become like Isaiah says, wo to those who say good to what is bad and who say bad to what is good. Chapter 5.

 

I offer you in the name of Jesus Christ, who can wash you from all your iniquities and sins, come to him and be washed from your sins my friends. And stop puffing up with you dirt, but be humble in your mind and come to Jesus, he will help you ans save from you miserable state. You are very valuable to him. 

 

God loves you.