Peanut Gallery for “Why I am No Longer a Christian” (TABA / aik)

[TABA]

This thread is for anyone who wishes to comment on the informal debate between me and Christian guest @aik.  Christians and apostates alike are welcome to chime in.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

I'm looking forward to a fair, organized, one on one debate.

[AnarchoChrstian_dc]

I would like to engage in discussion with you here. I don’t intend to change anyone’s mind as I also find it unlikely that forum discussions will change mine. Shooting from the hip here, as it comes to mind. First I think we think we can oversimplify. If God is the things he says he is (all knowing, loving, powerful) then he is outside of our limited understanding. This isn’t to try to fit evil into the loving box by stretching it open to infinity. However I do see evil as a byproduct of true love. This brings me to all powerful. To say he has the power to do anything is oversimplifying. Let us not forget the ancient language and context the Bible is written in. With that I don’t think the writers intended to say all powerful means he can do anything we think he should be able to do. He can do only all the things within his character as defined by himself. He can’t make a round square, he can’t sin (archery term for: miss the target), he is limited only by the one with authority to limit him; himself. The connection this has with all loving is that he can’t force humans to love, Him nor other humans. His business is teaching us to love, love him, other humans, animals, earth and so on. If forced then it is not love at all. If we choose to not love that is when evil is introduced. There are many options besides to love. We choose anything that is not love then we get the inevitable byproduct: evil. 
 

I will go setup an account now so hopefully we can continue. I like your other reasonings for your world view and would like to hopefully eventually challenge them after we go further here if needed. Love and peace to you and Happy new year.

For better more thoughtfully writing of what I’m trying to say check out “death to deconstruction” by Josh Porter 

[TABA]

Hey @AnarchoChrstian_dc, welcome to our community!  And Happy New Year to you too!

 

I have moved your post into a parallel “Peanut Gallery” thread to preserve the main thread for a one-and-one discussion between me and Christian visitor @aik, assuming he wishes to continue with it.   Here in this parallel thread, apostates and believers alike can join the conversation.  Unfortunately that can get disorderly and confusing at times, especially when a believer is responding to multiple heathens.   
 

But let’s see how it goes.  If at some point you would prefer to have just a one-on-one debate with me or another willing member, that can likely be arranged.  I just don’t want you to get frustrated and leave prematurely if it feels like you’re being ganged up on.  
 

So, ex-Christians, who would like to be the first to respond to our new guest?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, AnarchoChrstian_dc said:

For better more thoughtfully writing of what I’m trying to say check out “death to deconstruction” by Josh Porter

For those curious:

 

 

There is also a book.

 

 If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.

~Sun Tzu

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, AnarchoChrstian_dc said:

 

I do see evil as a byproduct of true love.

 

Please explain.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

15 hours ago, AnarchoChrstian_dc said:

I would like to engage in discussion with you here. I don’t intend to change anyone’s mind as I also find it unlikely that forum discussions will change mine. Shooting from the hip here, as it comes to mind. First I think we think we can oversimplify. If God is the things he says he is (all knowing, loving, powerful) then he is outside of our limited understanding. This isn’t to try to fit evil into the loving box by stretching it open to infinity. However I do see evil as a byproduct of true love. This brings me to all powerful. To say he has the power to do anything is oversimplifying. Let us not forget the ancient language and context the Bible is written in. With that I don’t think the writers intended to say all powerful means he can do anything we think he should be able to do. He can do only all the things within his character as defined by himself. He can’t make a round square, he can’t sin (archery term for: miss the target), he is limited only by the one with authority to limit him; himself. The connection this has with all loving is that he can’t force humans to love, Him nor other humans. His business is teaching us to love, love him, other humans, animals, earth and so on. If forced then it is not love at all. If we choose to not love that is when evil is introduced. There are many options besides to love. We choose anything that is not love then we get the inevitable byproduct: evil. 
 

I will go setup an account now so hopefully we can continue. I like your other reasonings for your world view and would like to hopefully eventually challenge them after we go further here if needed. Love and peace to you and Happy new year.

For better more thoughtfully writing of what I’m trying to say check out “death to deconstruction” by Josh Porter 

Why do christians think that the "god cannot do everything, that's not what omnipotent means" argument is some kind of end-all win? Listen, mate, we're not asking god to do everything; we're just asking god to end unnecessary and gratuitous suffering, especially amongst children. He can do that, right? Like, that is within his ability as an omnipotent being, right? I mean, if not, then why call him god? And if he can't save us from temporal suffering in this life, why trust him to save anyone from eternal suffering in the next?

 

Not to mention he should want to put a stop to needless suffering if he really is all-loving. What kind of love allows for senseless violence, poverty, rape, and the rest of it? Not parental love, that's for sure. And not marital love, either. So the analogy of christ's bride and of the heavenly father are both outright lies, at best. Because the kind of love implied in both would prevent evil wherever possible. But god "don't do shit" except sit there being all mysterious.

[walterpthefirst]

Hello AnarchoChristian.

 

 

You say that god cannot force people to love.

 

And yet in the bible, he forces people to become more selfish than would otherwise be by hardening their hearts.

 

He doesn't give them a choice in the matter - he just overrides their free choice by hardening their hearts.

 

Even if he foresaw that they would never love him why does he have to make them more evil than they were?

 

Surely by corrupting and perverting them further, isn't god actively bringing about evil?

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, aik said:

 

 And then I was baptised with the Holy Spirit.

 

Help us understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Did you ask for that to happen?  Or did it happen spontaneously?  Please describe the process in detail.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@aik

I your last post on the thread you gave some of your background. You said your family claimed to be Christians, your mom gave her life to Jesus in 1990, and you went to church classes. 

 

In my opinion you were predisposed to believe in Jesus. You were taught about Jesus as a child. Childhood indoctrination is a staple in most Christian churches. Or most religions in general. This weighs the odds heavily toward believing. And really takes away free will if there ever was free will with religion. I don't really consider the choice between. 

 

1. Believing in Jesus

And

2. Burning in hell for eternity

 

Free will. Its more like being strong armed into belief. But that is the Christian way. Even now its "convert or die". Convert and live forever or go to hell. Why even act like that is a choice? Its an ultimatum. 

 

So here it goes. Here is your free will. (If you believe in free will) You were taught from childhood to believe or go to hell. You got to the ripe old age of 29 and decided it was time to get Jesus in your life. I doubt you ever really thought Jesus wasn't real or Christianity wasn't true. You just put the beliefs on the back burner because you had "better" things to do in your early and mid 20s. Like party, have sex, do drugs maybe. So when you got older, your mortality became more of an issue, and your hormones settled down a bit, you conveniently believed in Jesus and low and behold Jesus is working in you now. Praise be to God. You didn't wanna go to hell. Shout it from the roof tops. Oooooo de lolli. Golly what a day.  

 

I know that is speculation, but did I get close? You were pretty much destined to believe from the beginning just like most Christians. And that is not free will or even a free choice. 

 

DB

[pantheory]

Yeah, I agree TABA.  A good start to a good online discussion with a good and respectful Christian like "aik" first involves definitions as you are now doing, since many such Christians would not realize that word definitions can differ, especially for those where English is their second language. . He seems like a very decent chap like Edgarcito and I expect we both hope that he will think the same of us and decide to  keep visiting us here. 

[pantheory]

36 minutes ago, aik said:

That's  good Taba. Suffering is clear in the context of our conversation. But Epicurus words are telling us about evil. So i have to put it aside too. 

 

I am going back to your question about millions of years. I believe that science has its hypothetical theory about origin of things. But we cannot call it scientific evidence, because actual evidence lead us not to their conclusions. If yhey find an artefact and try to find out how old it is, and being an atheist they pass the flood by, and they do not take into account the flood, of course they will have wrong outcome. The rssult will differ from what the creationist scientists have. Like the creationist scientists have many unanswered questions, in the same way evolutionists have. And more than this. The evolutionists are unable to answer some questions because they have to reject flood and creation because of their belief. So if you ask me do i believe in theory of evolution and big bang or creation by god, my answer is god. It was my answer even when i was an unbeliever. Because creation is obvious to me rather than evolution,s fake. 

 

Based on this i refuse to oppose science to my belief. Because science in no way is opposite to god. The only thing we should take into account, that science is not about salvation, judgement, the origin and the end of days. It is only discovery of what the creator has already done for our better quality of life. 

 

I oppose atheism to god. Atheism is a fake religion, theory, doctrine, call it whatever you want.

 

Yes, i am saying that there was not suffering before the original sin.

 

Hi aik, now you're talking science and I am a scientist. Roughly half the scientists in the US are non-believers like the many that are in Russia. I studied geology, anthropology, and know there is a mountain of evidence against the Biblical version of the flood. Of course there have been many local floods in history such as those experience in Mesopotamia where the Biblical flood story likely came from. Of course every part of the world was under water at different times, even the highest mountains were underwater hundreds of millions of years ago, but each mountain chain was formed and underwater at different time in the very distant past. 

 

Half of the scientists in America claim to be either Christian or spiritual. I am a pure atheist, but we are all human. So humans make mistakes and some of science can be wrong, but not the knowledge that the Biblical flood never happened since there is a mountain of irrefutable evidence against such a belief.

 

I'm glad you're here and hope we can also educate you as you wish to educate us about the Bible.  Cheers to you.

Vashe zdorov'ye, cheers

[TABA]

Hey @pantheory, I moved your comments to the Peanut Gallery to keep the main thread as clear as possible for me and @aik.  I do appreciate your comments and your support!

[pantheory]

1 minute ago, TABA said:

Hey @pantheory, I moved your comments to the Peanut Gallery to keep the main thread as clear as possible for me and @aik.  I do appreciate your comments and your support!

 

OK

[aik]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

Hi aik, now you're talking science and I am a scientist. Roughly half the scientists in the US are non-believers like the many that are in Russia. I studied geology, anthropology, and know there is a mountain of evidence against the Biblical version of the flood. Of course there have been many local floods in history such as those experience in Mesopotamia where the Biblical flood story likely came from. Of course every part of the world was under water at different times, even the highest mountains were underwater hundreds of millions of years ago, but each mountain chain was formed and underwater at different time in the very distant past. 

 

Half of the scientists in America claim to be either Christian or spiritual. I am a pure atheist, but we are all human. So humans make mistakes and some of science can be wrong, but not the knowledge that the Biblical flood never happened since there is a mountain of irrefutable evidence against such a belief.

 

I'm glad you're here and hope we can also educate you as you wish to educate us about the Bible.  Cheers to you.

Vashe zdorov'ye, cheers

Ok, dear. 

 

I am with you here as you say. Thanks for good words. Glory is to the Lord for that.

 

And cheers to you also. 

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Ok, dear. 

 

I am with you here as you say. Thanks for good words. Glory is to the Lord for that.

 

And cheers to you also. 

 Glad you came here to the Peanut Gallery to say Hi, but the religious  conversation is with TABA in the primary thread. You can talk to TABA about your religious beliefs there with TABA, but since I no longer could have religious beliefs, I can only answer your science questions here if you wish -- but not religion only since I never argue religion.

 

cheers again, and best regards

[aik]

On 1/18/2023 at 8:56 PM, DarkBishop said:

In my opinion you were predisposed to believe in Jesus. You were taught about Jesus as a child. Childhood indoctrination is a staple in most Christian churches. Or most religions in general. This weighs the odds heavily toward believing. And really takes away free will if there ever was free will with religion. I don't really consider the choice between. 

Hello Dear Bishop. Haven't you turn to Jesus back yet?

 

I agree with you. An example from my childhood. Every new year celebration our sovietic type of santa clause, called ded moroz, brought me a sack full of candies and put it under the door of our house. Once when i was 6 or 7 years old my father told me that this is not ded moroz bringing me the gift but my mother does it. End it became a revelation for me about the true situation of things. So when a child comes to the world at first he never heard about god, he lives without knowing that the life without god is a lie, that putting hope to yourself, and to your prosperity, and to your relatives and to a police, as Weezer said, is a lie. A big lie. Just as the situatjon with santa clause. Then one good man tells you that there is god, there is jesus died for your sins, there is a redeemer and there is salvation for you. 

 

How do we know that we need salvation? Because when even an non believer sins, commits crime, something in his heart tells him that he has done wrong. It is called concious. A man has his choice to follow what it tells or to reject it one or two times, which is enough to not hear this anymore. 

 

So the choice comes when alternative is offered. Alternative was Jesus. And i had no freedom before i heard about jesus. World never will offer jesus to us. It hides jesus and at the same time it hides alternative to sinful life. 

 

What refers to a hellfire. Well itdoes not depend on you and me. If there is god and the bible is true, then there is hell and condemnation. So i want to check it out. But i want to check it out staying at the side of eternal pleasure life with god, not condemnation. If you do not believe it but it exists, the things will not be changed just because DarkBishop does not believe. 

But i have more confidence than this. 

 

So i invite you to think on it my dear friend.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

13 hours ago, aik said:

A big lie. Just as the situatjon with santa clause. Then one good man tells you that there is god, there is jesus died for your sins, there is a redeemer and there is salvation for you. 

The problem is that the big lie is actually the bible. It isn't true but billions of people think it is. Including yourself. It isn't really that big of a deal I guess. Except that these religions have kept the world divided for thousands of years. But If your a true believer you will live your life fulfilled in your heart for your faithful obedience. You'll die with the peace of mind in knowing you will go to heaven. And if you live by biblocal standards you should be a fairly decent person to those you come in contact with. So far I can say you seem to be a good Christian Aik. And I can respect that. Atleast you try to live your beliefs. 

 

In a similar fashion as an non-believer. I feel that I can also live my life in a respectable manner. I as well can treat others that I come in contact with, with respect and dignity. I can be a good person and not believe. God doesn't hold the monopoly on morals. Human morals were projected onto the various gods. Including the Christian God. 

 

13 hours ago, aik said:

How do we know that we need salvation? Because when even an non believer sins, commits crime, something in his heart tells him that he has done wrong. It is called concious.

 

I'm going to attest that it is not God who controls the conscience of man. But parents. When a child is growing they are constantly being taught right from wrong. Parents teach children from a young age to be good to other kids, not to take something that doesn't belong to you. And to consider other people feelings before acting. 

 

Some are taught better than others. And that is reflected in their actions. Someone who has a parent that is a thief is probably not going to be as conflicted when stealing something as someone who was taught that stealing is wrong. 

 

13 hours ago, aik said:

it but it exists, the things will not be changed just because DarkBishop does not believe. 

 

And it doesn't mean that it is actually there just because Aik believes it is. 

 

DB

[Joshpantera]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:02 PM, aik said:

So i invite you to think on it my dear friend.

 

That's very nice. 

 

You probably mean well. But the thing of it is, this mythological fantasy you're into won't last very much longer beyond the Boomer Generation. It's long since peaked and has plummeted in leaps and bounds into the 21st century. That this whole shebang is make believe will be more than obvious going forward. And when you all (Boomers) have passed on, most of this will be buried with you folks. 

 

And I mean that in the kindest way possible, not being a smart ass. Your generation is literally taking most of this taking mythology literal to the grave.

 

Gen-X will get a glimpse of a post religious dominated world in our golden years, probably.

 

And conversations like this will look like historical conversations in ancient Greece or Rome between long dead religions arguing at the time for their own significance, all the while, insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Not meant to carry on any longer than when people simply stop towing them along anymore. Then it's an abrupt decline, and minority status moving forward. If not complete extinction. 

 

And you have a warm invitation to think on that a while, dear friend....

 

 

[aik]

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

That's very nice. 

 

You probably mean well. But the thing of it is, this mythological fantasy you're into won't last very much longer beyond the Boomer Generation. It's long since peaked and has plummeted in leaps and bounds into the 21st century. That this whole shebang is make believe will be more than obvious going forward. And when you all (Boomers) have passed on, most of this will be buried with you folks. 

 

And I mean that in the kindest way possible, not being a smart ass. Your generation is literally taking most of this taking mythology literal to the grave.

 

Gen-X will get a glimpse of a post religious dominated world in our golden years, probably.

 

And conversations like this will look like historical conversations in ancient Greece or Rome between long dead religions arguing at the time for their own significance, all the while, insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Not meant to carry on any longer than when people simply stop towing them along anymore. Then it's an abrupt decline, and minority status moving forward. If not complete extinction. 

 

And you have a warm invitation to think on that a while, dear friend....

 

 

Okey. I wish I could call you by your name, but unfortunately guys you here bear only nicknames. It is very similar to what happens in today's christian world. Christians wear masks in churches and masks in the world. Worldish mask for the world, and christian mask for churches. And such christians think that they are christian. Yes, they are, but they forget that anyone of christians will stande before God to answer for what he has done being in flesh, and no hypocrite will enter the heaven. This was Prelude.

 

¹⁸ The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

¹⁹ Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them
Psalms 34:18-19
 

In a couple of items I am going to answer to your investigation.

 

1. In a global sence this graph should be a sinusoid.

 

If we take not 70 years but 2000 years, we will see that Great Empires of the world dared to distroy the church, so that christians are vanished from the surface of the earth. But I see from history that Roman Empire is vanished and one cannot find it anymore. Byzantine, Osman, Persian, Soviet Union. Yes, they hurt much to the believers but the Kingdom of Christ still stands and they could not. 

 

Nikita Khrushev, one of the Soviet leaders, said that he would show to the world the last christian believer on TV in 1980. That period the church in Soviet Union was very strong, because they have just passed persecutions of Stalin's regime. And this atheist thought that he will do better than Stalin. But he failed. In 80's church started to grow extremely, and by the end of 80's it burst up like an explosion and was spread all over the Soviet Union and even broader, like it happened in 1920's. 

 

Nero, Roman Emperor, wanted to distroy christians completely. But he failed. Jews and christians were exciled from Rome, but they were scattered to carry the good news about salvation, and they brought it to many other countries. 

 

Diocletianus (300 AD) he tried to distroy christians, to take them out from the whole Roman Empire. But these years Armenia accepts Jesus Christ as its Lord and Saviour and Christianity becomes a national religion of Armenia. 

 

Osman Empire sent out christians killing them, doing a genocide of the Greek, Balgarian, Armenian, Serbian people. But now we have masses of muslim people leaving islam and churches growing in Turkey. 

 

What are you talking about?!

 

2. America is not the whole world.

 

I agree with the statistics in America. Unfortunately some christians, not only in America but in general, love their own glory more than the glory of Jesus who died for the sins of others. Christians in most they love wealth more than torments of Jesus, who left everithing for us. Very often, I have to say this to show real picture in christian life, very often we can let Jesus enter in some part of our hearts, but we keep some other part for us only, and we like say: Hey, Jesus, I let you to be in this part of my life, but here you cannot enter, because it my PRIVATE AREA. And existence of such private area free from Jesus makes us to become hypocrites. When such christians pray, they pray and fast to have something from God. But when it comes to give something to Jesus, to give in the name of Jesus, to give something really valuable in their hearts, it is the red zone. 

 

Why am I saying this? Not for bringing out your tears my friends. I want to say that there are reasons why a christian can fall in faith. One can be a very bad christian, but a sincere christian. He may be ignorant of many things, but he is sincere in believing in Jesus. And such a man will have more success than a hypocrite.

 

I will tell you my short story on this topic. It is for you and @DarkBishop especially. 

When i was in the world, before being a believer, I was preparing to my wedding. We invited guests from various cities they have been living by that time. Some guests came to us from Armenia. And one of those was a believer. Imagine about 60 persons (those who came from outside) being in the same place closely knowing one another, they haven't seen each other for years and dozens of years sometimes, they are very happy to meet again etc. About a couple of weeks they were together. And among them, very honourable and respectful people, I saw one whose behaviour was different. He was also communicating to the  people, but with meekness, holiness, without extraordinary jokes, with some good manner, with kindness and peace. And it was very impressive to me. And said in my heart: If one can be such a believer, that can have and keep sincere faith in Jesus among others in the world, then I wish to have such a faith too. It opened my eyes at that time, to see what I was unable to see before. 

 

I am interested only in sincere faith my friends. A faith which leads me to give everything for Christ without residue. Of course I do not see that I have reached a success in it, but only this is attractive to me. Because the other type of faith I have been watching in the world very much, in most of people. And me myself was living in the world with such a faith, called myself a christian, denied everything turkish LOL and was puffed up by myself, accepting glory and respect from others, thought that I will manage everything in my life. But I want to ask: if you can manage everithing, why couldn'n you hold your wife next to you for example? Why couldn't you make her love you inspite of everything? If you can manage everything in your life, then why when you lose your health, run to the doctor forgetting about everything like it was the last hope of yours? and so many questions like this. 

 

I am not saying that you were hypocrites in your faith when you were christians. But I call you to investigate you ex-faith according to the Bible. Do it one more time.

 

I invite you to only a sicere faith my friends. Bring yourselves back to Jesus, repent, confess your sins, open your hearts completely for him, deny what people will think about you, it does not matter. And Jesus is going to heal your hearts and to restore your distroyed faith. 

 

But I think you will not accept my invitation. 

 

Do you know what I love in Americans? Whenever we ask Americans How are you? they answer, I am all right. Whatever happens, Americans smile. Americans believe that everything will pass and the good will come. I see that it is a christian heritage in you guys. Habits stay though the faith is gone. Paradox. 

 

From aik with a big christian love to you. 

 

¹⁸ The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

¹⁹ Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them
Psalms 34:18-19
 

 

[Joshpantera]

20 hours ago, aik said:

I am interested only in sincere faith my friends. A faith which leads me to give everything for Christ without residue. Of course I do not see that I have reached a success in it, but only this is attractive to me. Because the other type of faith I have been watching in the world very much, in most of people. And me myself was living in the world with such a faith, called myself a christian, denied everything turkish LOL and was puffed up by myself, accepting glory and respect from others, thought that I will manage everything in my life. But I want to ask: if you can manage everithing, why couldn'n you hold your wife next to you for example? Why couldn't you make her love you inspite of everything? If you can manage everything in your life, then why when you lose your health, run to the doctor forgetting about everything like it was the last hope of yours? and so many questions like this. 

 

I do think that you're trying to do the right thing, aik. 

 

And I appreciate you trying to give me a well thought out response. I have reason to project the situation in the US globally, however. These are things that I have thought out quite far actually. 

 

What I'm seeing is that the religious majority in the world will be transforming in the following ways: 

 

1) Leaving organized religions for a "spiritual, not religious" lifestyle. 

2) Leaving organized religions for a secular oriented agnostic-atheist lifestyle. 

3) Leaving organized religions for some combination of the first two. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aik]

10 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

spiritual, not religious

could you please explain me this in more details? what do you mean here? 

[Joshpantera]

1 minute ago, aik said:

could you please explain me this in more details? what do you mean here? 

 

I've involved myself down to deep levels in the modern 21st Century exploration of Idealist Philosophy. The argument from philosophy (Bernardo Kastrup) and science (Donald Hoffman) that Awareness is fundamental. It's the primary Consciousness modeling. And what results is a spiritual outlook associated with Consciousness itself, directly. To take all of this into account, and relate it back to religion, what follows is listed below. 

 

I would argue that: 

 

1) If you're concept of God is of an eternal, uncreated, and omnipresent, something which is conscious, then what you actually believe at the core is that Consciousness itself is primary. I don't know of anyone who envisions their supreme gods as not-conscious, not-eternal, and not-omnipresent. 

 

2) That being the case, it's more proper to look past all of the metaphors and symbolism in the myths and understand that what you're really placing your beliefs in is a "primary Consciousness" model of existence. It's "non-dual." It has to be. The God is never separate from its Consciousness. There is never two separate things existing, one being the God and another separate thing being the God's consciousness. 

 

3) Having arrived at a very necessary non-dual Reality, what follows is how that pans out into the world and human life. The Infinite Consciousness has within itself formed up little finite experiential states, or Jr. versions of Consciousness. It's all still unitary, at no point has any of this become dual or literally separated into discrete parts. It's an interconnected whole. 

 

4) You cannot be conscious, alive, and in an experiential state of existence without this necessary interconnection. 

 

5) The symbolism of "Gods" in myth, has always been squarely to do with Consciousness as primary and the universe as an interconnected aspect of that primary Consciousness. Human spirituality which comes from within, is not addressed to any specific religion in the world which has arisen. It's within. It's subjective to the interior of conscious experiential states. The truth is that the God concept is only useful in so far as it leads you to a self realization - the mystical realization - that comes from within each individual. 

 

6) Having established this depth of thought, a truth is set forward. And this is the truth that can and will set an individual human being of any stripe, any background, "free." This is "spiritual independence." From the churches and state. This a "core" or "central" aspect of theism the world over. And I call it, "Axial-Theism: The Central God Belief." 

 

7) We're done! Rest! The journey is over! ",,,And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free!" 

 

There's no religious hierarchy in reality. There never was. It's always been just like this. Conscious experiential states taking place, which point towards a "correspondence" to greater Conscious Experiential states within Nature itself. 

 

"As above, so below. As below, so above." - central Hermetic Axiom. 

 

I've read the Hermetic Kybalion and the Emerald Tablet with all of this in mind. And it can merge modern Idealist Philosophy with Hermetic tradition. And Hermetic tradition has been kept alive by all three dominant western religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. There's a binding factor involved in this insight. And our children of the western world can have access to it all.

 

We've been enslaved by dark age-oriented perversions of true human core subjectivity; they can be set free. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aik]

38 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

I've involved myself down to deep levels in the modern 21st Century exploration of Idealist Philosophy. The argument from philosophy (Bernardo Kastrup) and science (Donald Hoffman) that Awareness is fundamental. It's the primary Consciousness modeling. And what results is a spiritual outlook associated with Consciousness itself, directly. To take all of this into account, and relate it back to religion, what follows is listed below. 

 

I would argue that: 

 

1) If you're concept of God is of an eternal, uncreated, and omnipresent, something which is conscious, then what you actually believe at the core is that Consciousness itself is primary. I don't know of anyone who envisions their supreme gods as not-conscious, not-eternal, and not-omnipresent. 

 

2) That being the case, it's more proper to look past all of the metaphors and symbolism in the myths and understand that what you're really placing your beliefs in is a "primary Consciousness" model of existence. It's "non-dual." It has to be. The God is never separate from its Consciousness. There is never two separate things existing, one being the God and another separate thing being the God's consciousness. 

 

3) Having arrived at a very necessary non-dual Reality, what follows is how that pans out into the world and human life. The Infinite Consciousness has within itself formed up little finite experiential states, or Jr. versions of Consciousness. It's all still unitary, at no point has any of this become dual or literally separated into discrete parts. It's an interconnected whole. 

 

4) You cannot be conscious, alive, and in an experiential state of existence without this necessary interconnection. 

 

5) The symbolism of "Gods" in myth, has always been squarely to do with Consciousness as primary and the universe as an interconnected aspect of that primary Consciousness. Human spirituality which comes from within, is not addressed to any specific religion in the world which has arisen. It's within. It's subjective to the interior of conscious experiential states. The truth is that the God concept is only useful in so far as it leads you to a self realization - the mystical realization - that comes from within each individual. 

 

6) Having established this depth of thought, a truth is set forward. And this is the truth that can and will set an individual human being of any stripe, any background, "free." This is "spiritual independence." From the churches and state. This a "core" or "central" aspect of theism the world over. And I call it, "Axial-Theism: The Central God Belief." 

 

7) We're done! Rest! The journey is over! ",,,And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free!" 

 

There's no religious hierarchy in reality. There never was. It's always been just like this. Conscious experiential states taking place, which point towards a "correspondence" to greater Conscious Experiential states within Nature itself. 

 

"As above, so below. As below, so above." - central Hermetic Axiom. 

 

I've read the Hermetic Kybalion and the Emerald Tablet with all of this in mind. And it can merge modern Idealist Philosophy with Hermetic tradition. And Hermetic tradition has been kept alive by all three dominant western religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. There's a binding factor involved in this insight. And our children of the western world can have access to it all.

 

We've been enslaved by dark age-oriented perversions of true human core subjectivity; they can be set free. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I got it. Thanks.

 

1 hour ago, Joshpantera said:

What I'm seeing is that the religious majority in the world will be transforming in the following ways: 

 

 

Here you do not take into account the work of the Holy Spirit in the world. What you have just explained in these two or three points is nothing new. This process happens always as I can notice. Rise and fall, rise and fall, from faith in God to atheism, revivals and getting cold, persecutions - revival - getting cold again. Well I am saying that All christian live with hope that revival is coming, and according to the picture you showed atheists live dreaming abou the world without Jesus. While the Holy Spirit is in the world there will be Jesus. 

 

The Bible says that God's Kingdom will never fall. So many things happened but it still stays. The Bible is more correct than atheistic view of the situation. As simple as it is. 

 

For example, a church is born, 1) a new revival is just finished, spirits of believers are full of faith and hope, they burn for Christ, preaching is flamous, everywhere baptisms in Holy Spirit...it was a start.  2)Then we plainly flow into making doctrines and establishing names of churches, separating true teaching from denominations and determine false teaching and try to keep the line and bring up new believers who are stedfast in the church teaching together with having relationship with God. 3) Believers are getting tired of teaching because previously the Holy Spirit was limited by the believers, hearts are not filled with love to God completely, faith turns into doing obligations, and Christ's burden becomes heavy, and hypocricy has to come to the scene, some coldness gets the believers, and whoever is still sincere feel terrible when they have to do more prayers, attend church to keep their faith etc., 4) and people start to find mistakes in each other, start disputing and disobey elders, try to change traditions and it flows into small wars within a church, and then a separation from the church. 5) the church calls them heretics, but they are happy to be separated, now they are free and they can do whatever they want. And if the elder loves holiness the people will love holiness, and if an elder loves worldish type of behaviour then the people will love the same. 

 

And if there is no persecution then God finds for himself one or few sincere believers among all of them and fills their heart with the lost knowledge about God, and leads them to a new stage of revivals. 

 

Maybe I am wrong in some details. But I see a general picture like this. And pay attention, while the major part of believers try to follow elders, only few know the will of God and seek Him alone. Of course many of them were mistaken thinking that they found a true knowledge. But this is the process of faith. 

 

⁸ And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. ⁹ No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: ¹⁰ And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.Isaiah 35:8-10
 

So there is a group of people according to the Bible who will never err in their path. 

 

So in reply to your plan I say that there will be a man risen to find God, the lost worship. Until Jesus comes again.

 

What do you think about it?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

54 minutes ago, aik said:

 

What do you think about it?

 

I don't know what Josh thinks about it, but I think the "holy spirit", which is created by your brain, has taken over your being.  Your perception of your holy spirit was influnced by your upbringing and reading the bible.  If you had been raised as Muslim, your faith would be there.  Your faith is in your BELIEF.  IN YOUR BRAIN.  Not in any reality outside your brain.