Suffering for the Good of the World

[walterpthefirst]

Thank you.

 

I will post this info shortly.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Would you stop it with the lie thing already.

Well, Ed, you asked me not to imply that you intentionally lie.  So, rather than imply, I agreed to give you the opportunity to make your intentions known.  This is a common goal for us to work together toward, remember?

 

You did not answer my questions yesterday.   You gave 2 non-answers and I pointed out and explained why they were non-answers.  Yet, here you are today, claiming you answered my questions.  This is a misrepresentation of the facts, also known as a lie.

 

Is it intentional or not?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Easy enough.  See how easy it was for DB?

The problem is we are using the whole bible. I don't know what scriptures walter has in mind and my butting in has derailed his plan with other scriptures probably expounding Satan's role as the snake. So I probably shouldn't of said anything. This debate between you three is exhausting tho lmao this has been going on for almost a year between 3 threads. 

 

My presumption is that originally before Christians reinterpreted everything and added their own BS is that the snake in the Garden was just that...... a snake. No devil, no beelzebub, just a serpent that God cursed to crawl on its belly for its role in the fall of man. This explained to an ancient nomadic tribe how the snake came to be and why it was evil. Because it was cursed by God. I imagine snakes were a very real threat to ancient nomadic tribes.

 

All the angels and devils and all that BS was added in later. 

 

Since we are taking the bible as a whole I'm interested to see which scriptures Walter uses to prove his point. It'd be nice if we could get on with it. So maybe you could speed it up by answering them. 

 

Sorry Walter n RNP

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Sorry Walter n RNP

Hey, no need to apologize.  The debates are open to all who want to join in; though, I completely understand that not many would be able to put up with Ed's shenanigans for so long. 

[walterpthefirst]

Ok Edgardcito,

 

 

The key passages are Luke 10 : 17 - 20 and two from Revelation.  Let's look at Luke first.

 

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 

19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 

20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

 

Now when we compare this to god's description in Genesis 1 of his creation being 'very good' this tells us that Satan must have fallen from heaven to Earth after god said that.  This is because if Satan had fallen during the six day creation then everything that god created would not be 'very good'.  The goodness of creation would have been spoiled by the evil presence of Satan on Earth.  All that god had made during those six days would no longer be 'very good'.

 

The narrative of events described in Genesis 1 to 3 starts with an exact timeline (6 days of creation) but after that there is no count of elapsed time or count of days during which Adam and Eve (presumably) go about their work of caring for god's garden.  Therefore, all that can be said is that the snake entered Eden at some time after god finished his work of creation.

 

Next up we need will look at Revelation, where the serpent is identified as Satan.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

"Logically", the snake was not on the same level of creation as was Adam and Eve....having more knowledge.  The implication is it was from outside.  

[walterpthefirst]

Revelation 12 : 7 - 9.

 

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 

8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 

9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

 

Revelation 20 : 1 - 3.

 

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 

3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

 

These verses agree with what the apostle Paul says about who lead Eve astray in Eden in 2 Corinthians 11.

 

1 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 

2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 

3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

 

 

So, the bible is quite clear that the serpent who spoke to Eve was none other than Satan, assuming the shape of a snake.  Paul also alludes to Satan's shape-changing ability, later on in 2 Corinthians 11.

 

13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 

15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

"Logically", the snake was not on the same level of creation as was Adam and Eve....having more knowledge.  The implication is it was from outside.  

 

Exactly!

 

Satan was a high archangel in heaven and therefore not part of the Earthly creation.  But he was still part of god's wider creation.

 

Genesis 1 : 1

 

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 

 

In scripture the only thing that exists that was not created is god himself.  All other things, either in heaven or on earth were created by god.  This includes all of the angels - those that stayed loyal and those who fell to earth with Satan.  Some of the fallen angels were not allowed to roam the earth, but were bound in chains of darkness by god.

 

2 Peter 2 : 4

 

 

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

 

Jude 6.

 

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

So it seems apparent that God's creations don't always show God's will.

 

I'm reminded of a verse that says, the Father desires that none parish.  

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

So it seems apparent that God's creations don't always show God's will.

 

I'm reminded of a verse that says, the Father desires that none parish.  

 

 

By who's will was the creation subject to frustration?

 

Romans 8 : 20 

 

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, 

 

We've just established that Satan was a part of creation, just like Adam and Eve.

 

So, of the four players in Eden, who does that leave?

 

Adam

Eve

Satan

God

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

So it seems apparent that God's creations don't always show God's will.

 

I'm reminded of a verse that says, the Father desires that none parish.  

This is not true.  Neither by scripture nor by logic.

 

By scripture, it was god's will for creation to suffer under subjection.  The serpent was merely a tool playing the part that god ordained he would play.

 

By logic, if an omniscient, omnipotent being is in control of everything, then nothing can happen that is not part of that being's plan and will. 

 

So, either everything happened according to god's will, or god is not an omniscient, omnipotent being who is in control and has a plan.

 

Which is it, Ed?

[Edgarcito]

8 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is not true.  Neither by scripture nor by logic.

 

By scripture, it was god's will for creation to suffer under subjection.  The serpent was merely a tool playing the part that god ordained he would play.

 

By logic, if an omniscient, omnipotent being is in control of everything, then nothing can happen that is not part of that being's plan and will. 

 

So, either everything happened according to god's will, or god is not an omniscient, omnipotent being who is in control and has a plan.

 

Which is it, Ed?

His will vs. freedom given over to creation is not the same.  Omnipotent, by definition, does not include total direction.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

His will vs. freedom given over to creation is not the same.  Omnipotent, by definition, does not include total direction.

 

So what about scripture?

 

Romans 8 : 11 specifically describes the one who's will it was to subject creation to frustration as not being part of creation.

 

We know that Adam and Eve and the serpent (Satan) were all created.

 

So, which one of the four players in the Genesis narrative does that leave?

 

Here's something to help you.

 

Adam 

Eve

Satan

God

 

 

Please answer.

[Edgarcito]

And for that matter, I can know the outcome yet still allow it to happen...

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

And for that matter, I can know the outcome yet still allow it to happen...

 

We had an agreement and I've kept my side of it, Edgarcito.

 

You've had a wealth of information and explanation from me.

 

Now it's time for you to keep your side of the agreement and answer the questions we put to you.

 

Please do so.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

9 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

His will vs. freedom given over to creation is not the same.  

He did not give freedom over to creation.  Scripture says so, and Walt has already made the point with sufficient evidence and clarity.

 

11 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Omnipotent, by definition, does not include total direction.

Omniscient, by definition and implication, does.  It has to, or it ceased to be omniscience and becomes merely knowing a lot but not everything. 

[Edgarcito]

3 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

So what about scripture?

 

Romans 8 : 11 specifically describes the one who's will it was to subject creation to frustration as not being part of creation.

 

We know that Adam and Eve and the serpent (Satan) were all created.

 

So, which one of the four players in the Genesis narrative does that leave?

 

Here's something to help you.

 

Adam 

Eve

Satan

God

 

 

Please answer.

I appreciate your efforts here Walter.  Thank you.  It was God that subjected our creation to frustration.  I don't believe that it was a function of his original intent given what you have just submitted.

[Edgarcito]

Just now, TheRedneckProfessor said:

He did not give freedom over to creation.  Scripture says so, and Walt has already made the point with sufficient evidence and clarity.

 

Omniscient, by definition and implication, does.  It has to, or it ceased to be omniscience and becomes merely knowing a lot but not everything. 

I thought the entire thread was about violation of free will??????

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

And for that matter, I can know the outcome yet still allow it to happen...

Bingo.  Your god knew it would happen and allowed it.  This means, in short, that he is unwilling to prevent evil and suffering.  Thank you for finally coming to this realization,  Ed 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

He did not give freedom over to creation.  Scripture says so, and Walt has already made the point with sufficient evidence and clarity.

 

Omniscient, by definition and implication, does.  It has to, or it ceased to be omniscience and becomes merely knowing a lot but not everything. 

No, all powerful does NOT imply that the power is utilized in one direction.  I can show power in Grace by not doing a damn thing to change the outcome.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, Edgarcito said:

I thought the entire thread was about violation of free will??????

So, why do you keep asking irrelevant questions about talking snakes, then, diplodocus?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No, all powerful does NOT imply that the power is utilized in one direction.  I can show power in Grace by not doing a damn thing to change the outcome.

Again, you have just admitted that god is not willing to prevent suffering, which means he cannot be omnibenevolent.  See how much faster we make progress when you finally start answering questions!

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I appreciate your efforts here Walter.  Thank you.  It was God that subjected our creation to frustration.  I don't believe that it was a function of his original intent given what you have just submitted.

 

Then you clearly haven't been paying attention, Ed.

 

God cannot change his mind or change his original intentions.

 

Malachi 3 : 6

 

For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

 

Hebrews 13 : 8

 

“Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

 

 

It was therefore ALWAYS his will to overthrow his own creation.

 

Nothing that Adam or Eve or Satan did changed his mind.

 

Do you agree?

 

 

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Again, you have just admitted that god is not willing to prevent suffering, which means he cannot be omnibenevolent.  See how much faster we make progress when you finly start answering questions!

But God's implemented several ways for OUR will to choose, no?  That's willing, right?  The Law? the New Covenant?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I can show power in Grace by not doing a damn thing to change the outcome.

Besides, Ed, what "grace" has god shown the 10-year-old sex slave?  "Saving" her from the "Sin" he deliberately subjected her to from before the foundations of the world?

 

Just because a rapist pedophile decides not to rape her doesn't make him some kind of graceful savior.  Same with god and his mighty plan of salvation.