Suffering for the Good of the World

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

You ignore all other evidence in favor of scripture...... why wouldn't you ignore your evidence?

 

DB

I'm uncertain about that DB.....what makes something "right" in my mind vs. skepticism..  I don't know that I ignore the evidence, rather remain faithful with that evidence on the table, but still not understanding the very small, the very large, the beginning and speculative end....

[TheRedneckProfessor]

38 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

That's fine.  Evidence suggests that I may look right, I may look left, I may close my eyes, all given the ability, at my discretion.  Are we to ignore this evidence or do we believe that God is controlling our minds.

Your ability to look in different directions is only evidence that you can move your eyes and head.  It's not evidence that you are doing so of your own free will and volition.  So, for this discussion, it may as well be ignored in favor of actual evidence. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

33 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I don't know that I ignore the evidence, rather remain faithful with that evidence on the table,

This speaks to your confirmation bias, not to mention, stubbornness.  You hold your predetermined conclusion in spite of the evidence instead of drawing a conclusion in light of it.  Not trying to be hard on you; just pointing out something you may not realize about yourself. 

[walterpthefirst]

20 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

So you are committing to no free will?  I agree it follows your logic.  

 

No. 

 

You are still making the mistake of thinking that this is my personal position on the matter.  That I am committing to and therefore believing that there is no free will for human beings.

 

Let me make my position absolutely clear on this, Edgarcito.  Earlier in this thread I wrote this.

 

For the record, I just don't know if humans have free will or not.

There is scientific evidence to suggest not, but nothing definitive.

So, your assertion that I don't believe that we have free will is incorrect.

 

THAT is my personal position on the issue of human free will, ok?

 

But what I have been arguing with you in this thread is the issue of human free will as written in the Bible and as believed by Christians.  Christians like you, who believe that the Bible is god's inerrant and infallible Word, which cannot lead you into false belief or heresy.

 

THAT is your stated position, ok?

 

 

So, in this thread I have clearly and repeatedly shown, by quoting scripture and by applying logic to scripture that in Biblical Christianity there is no free will for human beings.  God's will is sovereign and we have no choice but to submit to that.  Even if you resist that, because its unacceptable to you, how could you possibly change it?  God is all powerful and all knowing - not you.  You are the earthen pot shaped by his hands and you had no say in how or why he shaped you the way he did.  Nor do you have the power or the right to remake yourself as you would like.  God's will is sovereign, not yours.

 

He planned to make his entire creation to be subject to his will before he created anything - even before Genesis 1 : 1 starts to record events.  And because god does not and cannot change, nothing that happens within his creation can possibly alter or affect his will.  Because scripture clearly says that humans don't have free will, how could anything Adam and Eve or anyone else do within the count of time alter god's timeless and eternal will?  It's impossible!

 

In scientific terms that would be like suggesting that we could make a device that could reach back to before the Big Bang and alter the way the universe began.  That 13.8 billion years after everything began we could go back and re-write the rules.  Impossible!

 

 

I submit that your resistance to the idea of having no free will isn't based on scripture, on evidence or on logic, is it Edgarcito?  You simply don't like the idea for emotional reasons.  Isn't that truth?

 

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

This one relates to this thread. Just thought I'd throw it in. Just  a short from Bart Ehrman. Some of you probably already know but Bart deconverted because of the issue with suffering in the world. 

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/acycrR7jsmM?feature=share4

[walterpthefirst]

Thanks for this DB.

 

 

Given what Edgarcito has said in this thread so far I suspect that he'd probably go for the option that our suffering will lead to some greater good, one that outweighs all of the suffering in the world.  That he hopes for this, by faith.

 

But there's an unavoidable problem if he does this. 

 

The amount of suffering in the world caused by god may be very great, but it's not infinite.  For human beings it comes to an end.  So, perhaps Edgarcito is hoping that the good god has prepared in heaven for the saved will make all of the suffering he inflicted on the world, worthwhile.

 

The catch is, god has even more suffering in store for us.  And this time the suffering he inflicts will not come to end.

 

 

So, god caused very great, but not infinite suffering when caused Adam and Eve to disobey him.  But, he will cause INFINITE suffering when he sends billions to hell.

 

Now, I can hear the Christians howling in protest, loudly claiming that god doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves.  But that's not what the bible says.  Yesterday I quoted Romans 9 : 16 - 18.  So it's time to quote it again.

 

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

You see, DB?

 

It is god who chooses who he will have mercy on and who he won't.   Who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  Nobody gets to choose and nobody ever had the free will to choose.  

 

So, quite how Edgarcito can hope that a greater good can come out the infinite suffering I don't know!

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.