Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 43 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I don't intentionally lie. Don't imply that I do. Noted. I know it can be difficult for some people to realize they are lying. My mom is the same way. Doesn't even realize she's lying, even when she just told me the exact opposite not 5 minutes ago. I'll be sure to clarify your intention with you in future. Always happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Posted 7 hours ago 7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Romans 11 : 32. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Logically, if god bound Adam and Eve over to disobey him, did they have the free choice to obey him and heed his warning? Yes or No? They would have no choice, but I don't see their choice as a result of being bound by God, rather their choice was a result of deceit, desire, and envy. As I mentioned before, how does the serpent have the information as a part of creation, in Eden, and Adam and Eve don't. Are you saying God bound them through the serpent intentionally? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- We agree that Adam and Eve had no choice in the matter. That they couldn't have obeyed god's warning, even if they had understood it properly. No, I'm not saying that god bound them through the serpent intentionally, Ed. But using only logic you can discover for yourself who did the binding by looking at Romans 8 : 20 and 21... 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. ...and then asking yourself which of the four players in the Genesis narrative was not created. I'll give you a helping hand by drawing up a list. Was Adam created? Y / N ? Was Eve created? Y / N ? Was Satan created? Y / N ? Was god created? Y / N ? Which of these four was not created, Ed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 18 hours ago, Edgarcito said: @mwc is right in saying that no one really knows if the snake is Satan or just exactly what the snake represents other than temptation. Which goes to my question, is temptation "very good". I don't think so.....and hence there is an aspect of this story we can't answer.....my original point. Have I actually said that? As in that is what I actually think on this particular subject? I will clarify if that is the case since we're talking a non-allegorical interpretation here. The serpent is exactly as described in the text. It talks. It appears to some method of getting around, presumably legs, that is later removed forcing it to crawl (though this isn't clear). It also appears to be clever (especially compared to other field animals which raises the question of how it compares to non-field animals but that's not really important here but just a fun thought). The serpent does not appear to have any supernatural agency. It's not Satan whether that Satan is the Satan that is considered to be the Jewish accuser version or the Christian full embodiment of evil. What the serpent might possibly be or represent when compared to other Ancient Near Eastern literature or if taken as another form of literature, such as an metaphor, is an entirely different issue and of no concern to us here even if I might have made reference to it previously (I can't recall if I have but it's entirely possible and even likely). As for your question if "temptation" is "very good"? Since you don't think you now should step back and ask if a death threat is "very good"? Especially when that death threat is secretly some other set of punishments altogether. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 hours ago, mwc said: Have I actually said that? As in that is what I actually think on this particular subject? I will clarify if that is the case since we're talking a non-allegorical interpretation here. The serpent is exactly as described in the text. It talks. It appears to some method of getting around, presumably legs, that is later removed forcing it to crawl (though this isn't clear). It also appears to be clever (especially compared to other field animals which raises the question of how it compares to non-field animals but that's not really important here but just a fun thought). The serpent does not appear to have any supernatural agency. It's not Satan whether that Satan is the Satan that is considered to be the Jewish accuser version or the Christian full embodiment of evil. What the serpent might possibly be or represent when compared to other Ancient Near Eastern literature or if taken as another form of literature, such as an metaphor, is an entirely different issue and of no concern to us here even if I might have made reference to it previously (I can't recall if I have but it's entirely possible and even likely). As for your question if "temptation" is "very good"? Since you don't think you now should step back and ask if a death threat is "very good"? Especially when that death threat is secretly some other set of punishments altogether. mwc Where does it get the knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 4 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Posted 7 hours ago 7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said: Romans 11 : 32. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Logically, if god bound Adam and Eve over to disobey him, did they have the free choice to obey him and heed his warning? Yes or No? They would have no choice, but I don't see their choice as a result of being bound by God, rather their choice was a result of deceit, desire, and envy. As I mentioned before, how does the serpent have the information as a part of creation, in Eden, and Adam and Eve don't. Are you saying God bound them through the serpent intentionally? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- We agree that Adam and Eve had no choice in the matter. That they couldn't have obeyed god's warning, even if they had understood it properly. No, I'm not saying that god bound them through the serpent intentionally, Ed. But using only logic you can discover for yourself who did the binding by looking at Romans 8 : 20 and 21... 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. ...and then asking yourself which of the four players in the Genesis narrative was not created. I'll give you a helping hand by drawing up a list. Was Adam created? Y / N ? Was Eve created? Y / N ? Was Satan created? Y / N ? Was god created? Y / N ? Which of these four was not created, Ed? That doesn’t answer my question(s) about the snake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 23 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: That doesn’t answer my question(s) about the snake. Was the snake created, Ed? Yes or No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Edgarcito, Please answer the Prof's question. Was the snake created? Yes or No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 41 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Was the snake created, Ed? Yes or No. It seems evident that the snake is created by default. My question is it equal to the creation in the garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said: Edgarcito, Please answer the Prof's question. Was the snake created? Yes or No? Are we doing this game again today or might you just speculate on the snake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Just now, Edgarcito said: It seems evident that the snake is created by default. My question is it equal to the creation in the garden. No. According to scripture, nothing that was created was created without the prior knowledge and will of god. According to scripture, nothing just 'pops' into existence by itself. So, if the snake was created, who created it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 Just now, Edgarcito said: It seems evident that the snake is created by default. My question is it equal to the creation in the garden. Okay. Thank you. Walt is trying to answer your questions; but you need to do your part and answer his. If the snake was created, and all of creation was put under subjection by god, does this mean that the snake, which was created, was also put under subjection by god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Are we doing this game again today or might you just speculate on the snake... This is no game. We are exploring the logic of Romans 8 and 11. To do that you need to answer questions. So, who created the snake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Are we doing this game again today or might you just speculate on the snake... This isn't a game, Ed. This is us trying for 2 days now to get you to answer simple questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: No. According to scripture, nothing that was created was created without the prior knowledge and will of god. According to scripture, nothing just 'pops' into existence by itself. So, if the snake was created, who created it? By default, God, Walter. Come on now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: This isn't a game, Ed. This is us trying for 2 days now to get you to answer simple questions. I answered your question yesterday. And instead of him answering mine, it's just back to the logic behind yours pretending I didn't understand it the first several times. Answer my questions about the snake please. Where did the snake get the information that Adam and Eve did not have. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: By default, God, Walter. Come on now. We have now established that three of the four players in Eden were created. Adam, Eve and the snake. So, according to Romans 8 : 20 & 21, who's will was it that creation be subject to frustration? Adam's? No. He was created. Eve's? No. She was created. The snake's? No. it was created. They are all part of creation. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. That leaves only one option open, Ed. Who's will was it that creation be subject to frustration? Please answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I answered your question yesterday. And instead of him answering mine, it's just back to the logic behind yours pretending I didn't understand it the first several times. Answer my questions about the snake please. Where did the snake get the information that Adam and Eve did not have. Thanks. I can answer that from scripture, Ed. If I do that, will you respond in kind and answer the questions we put to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 21 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: It seems evident that the snake is created by default. My question is it equal to the creation in the garden. Sorry to butt in but: Yes it was: Genesis 1 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. He saw that everything he created was good. I would assume the wily snake creeping around the garden was included with EVERYTHING. DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I answered your question yesterday. And instead of him answering mine, it's just back to the logic behind yours pretending I didn't understand it the first several times. Answer my questions about the snake please. Where did the snake get the information that Adam and Eve did not have. Thanks. Ed, you have consistently refused to answer both my questions and Walt's, which is why it is still necessary for us to continue applying the logic because we have no way of knowing if you understand or not, since you will not answer our questions. Meanwhile, we have answered, or are trying to answer yours. This statement of yours is therefore a lie. Please acknowledge your lie and let us know whether or not it was intentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: I can answer that from scripture, Ed. If I do that, will you respond in kind and answer the questions we put to you? No, I've already answered. It's your turn. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: Sorry to butt in but: Yes it was: Genesis 1 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. He saw that everything he created was good. I would assume the wily snake creeping around the garden was included with EVERYTHING. DB Then did Adam and Eve have the information as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, DarkBishop said: Sorry to butt in but: Yes it was: Genesis 1 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. He saw that everything he created was good. I would assume the wily snake creeping around the garden was included with EVERYTHING. DB Sorry DB, If Edgarcito will agree to answer our questions I will tell him what he wants to know about the snake. And those passages of scripture say that the snake was NOT part of the created Earth. Thanks, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Ed, you have consistently refused to answer both my questions and Walt's, which is why it is still necessary for us to continue applying the logic because we have no way of knowing if you understand or not, since you will not answer our questions. Meanwhile, we have answered, or are trying to answer yours. This statement of yours is therefore a lie. Please acknowledge your lie and let us know whether or not it was intentional. Would you stop it with the lie thing already. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand God created everything, therefore God. Would both of you please move forward with some other speculations....or not. Just say no Ed, we can't. Easy enough. See how easy it was for DB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Just now, Edgarcito said: Would you stop it with the lie thing already. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand God created everything, therefore God. Would both of you please move forward with some other speculations....or not. Just say no Ed, we can't. Easy enough. See how easy it was for DB? Unfortunately DB is wrong about the snake. Sorry about that. Anyway, if I explain to you from scripture how the snake acquired its knowledge, will you agree to answer our questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Just now, walterpthefirst said: Unfortunately DB is wrong about the snake. Sorry about that. Anyway, if I explain to you from scripture how the snake acquired its knowledge, will you agree to answer our questions? Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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