Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 3 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: But God's implemented several ways for OUR will to choose, no? That's willing, right? The Law? the New Covenant? No. The morally bereft concept of substitutionary death is not something I can willingly choose. We've already discussed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: But God's implemented several ways for OUR will to choose, no? That's willing, right? The Law? the New Covenant? Only because he first bound everyone's will to disobedience. Romans 11 : 32. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. He violated everyone's free will first. So, what happened after that doesn't change what he did first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 It was therefore ALWAYS his will to overthrow his own creation. Nothing that Adam or Eve or Satan did changed his mind. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No. Sure it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Edgarcito said: Sure it is. Not according to scripture. God violated our free will by binding us all to disobedience. What happened with Moses and the Law doesn't change that. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 I'm logging off now, Ed. As per our agreement I expect you to answer the two questions I've just posted. The ones where I ask if you agree. Later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: Sure it is. No it isn't. Post my entire quote. Also, giving us a "choice," after he has already violated our free will by putting us into the situation where choice became necessary, is not giving us free will. It's the rapist pedophile asking the 10-year-old sex slave if she would rather cry or cuddle after he's already raped her. Your god is evil, Ed. Nothing he did after the fact is going to change that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I thought the entire thread was about violation of free will?????? You know Edgarcito, much of the conversation might be bent toward "free will" and its violations, but the thread's title is "Suffering for the Good of the World," which according to the New Testament is what the character Jesus did for the world of mankind. But in reality many people have spent their life in pursuit of suffering for the good of the world, but not just for humanity/ mankind. There are ecologists, vegans, animal rights activists, anti-abortionists, moralists of all types, etc., a number of which have died, and are willing to die for their causes, like the New Testament says Jesus did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: No it isn't. Post my entire quote. Also, giving us a "choice," after he has already violated our free will by putting us into the situation where choice became necessary, is not giving us free will. It's the rapist pedophile asking the 10-year-old sex slave if she would rather cry or cuddle after he's already raped her. Your god is evil, Ed. Nothing he did after the fact is going to change that. No, you're making a leap that you can't make regarding the processes/mechanisms for the intended outcome. But you DID in your will. There is no mechanism now to move us back except Jesus. I have never studied Satan nor his abilities and his relationship to "them" and God. I shall ponder this. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, pantheory said: You know Edgarcito, much of the conversation might be bent toward "free will" and its violations, but the thread's title is "Suffering for the Good of the World," which according to the New Testament is what the character Jesus did for the world of mankind. But in reality many people have spent their life in pursuit of suffering for the good of the world, but not just for humanity/ mankind. There are ecologists, vegans, animal rights activists, anti-abortionists, moralists of all types, etc., a number of which have died, and are willing to die for their causes, like the New Testament says Jesus did. I agree and have done some work in that direction as well, www.terrapots.com. Trying to make a contribution to Earth as well before I die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 10 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: There is no mechanism now to move us back except Jesus. That eliminates the whole idea of "choice," then. If there is only one option, then there isn't really much of a choice, is there? Way to shoot yourself in the foot, there, cowboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: That eliminates the whole idea of "choice," then. If there is only one option, then there isn't really much of a choice, is there? Way to shoot yourself in the foot, there, cowboy. You act like you are not aware of your place in the order of things J.....and that you are pissed that your observation of the objective position is greater that than the actual reality. It's very similar to the employee/employer relationship. We never know the mindset of the employer until we become that. You seem to be stuck in the employee position complaining about the employer. Career politicians come to mind as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 27 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: You act like you are not aware of your place in the order of things J.....and that you are pissed that your observation of the objective position is greater that than the actual reality. It's very similar to the employee/employer relationship. We never know the mindset of the employer until we become that. You seem to be stuck in the employee position complaining about the employer. Career politicians come to mind as well. So, is this evasion of my point an intentional misdirect, or do you genuinely not realize you are being disingenuous here, and, therefore, dishonest? Again, just giving you the opportunity to make your intentions known, rather than implying that you are intentionally deceitful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 It was therefore ALWAYS his will to overthrow his own creation. Nothing that Adam or Eve or Satan did changed his mind. Do you agree, Edgarcito? When answering please remember that scripture says that god is eternal, timeless and does not change his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Edgarcito: But God's implemented several ways for OUR will to choose, no? That's willing, right? The Law? the New Covenant? The Prof: No. The morally bereft concept of substitutionary death is not something I can willingly choose. We've already discussed that. Edgarcito: Sure it is. Me: Not according to scripture. God violated our free will by binding us all to disobedience. What happened with Moses and the Law doesn't change that. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 50 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: You act like you are not aware of your place in the order of things J.....and that you are pissed that your observation of the objective position is greater that than the actual reality. It's very similar to the employee/employer relationship. We never know the mindset of the employer until we become that. You seem to be stuck in the employee position complaining about the employer. Career politicians come to mind as well. Who is ultimately responsible - the subordinate or the commander in chief? Who was responsible for the suffering caused by the atomic bombing of Hiroshima? Major Thomas Ferebee, the bombardier who actually released the bomb? Colonel Paul Tibbets, the pilot of Enola Gay and Ferebee's commanding officer? General Carl A. Spaatz, commander of the Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific, Tibbets' commander? General Henry ‘Hap’ Arnold, General of the Air Force, Spaatz's commander? Or President Harry S. Truman, Commander in Chief of the entire US armed forces? The buck stops with god, not with anyone he used to achieve his unchanging and eternal will. Do you agree, Edgarcito? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: No, you're making a leap that you can't make regarding the processes/mechanisms for the intended outcome. But you DID in your will. There is no mechanism now to move us back except Jesus. I have never studied Satan nor his abilities and his relationship to "them" and God. I shall ponder this. Thx. No Ed, RNP and Walter just schooled you bro!!! Lmao No way is the choice for Jesus free will. Either believe in Jesus or burn in hell for eternity, after an event I let happen so sin would pass upon all mankind. Necessitating the sacrifice of Christ in the first place. Bravo guys, if only Ed would finally deconvert. Old school ExC revival thread here . If you've ever been to an old school Southern revival that probably makes more sense. DB DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 I can supply you with further information, Edgarcito. How Satan came to know about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But for me to share this with you I must first have your three answers to my three latest questions. Do you agree that because god does not change his mind it was always his will to overthrow his own creation? Do you agree that because god everyone over to disobedience his giving of the Law does nothing to change that? Do you agree that when it comes to the ultimate responsibility for suffering, the buck stops with god? Please answer these three questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 I need to reboot my brain please and start out with a simple question as it's getting jumbled in my head. Are you both saying that you have no free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 23 minutes ago, Edgarcito said: I need to reboot my brain please and start out with a simple question as it's getting jumbled in my head. Are you both saying that you have no free will? Please answer Walt's questions, Ed. They are simple enough; and you already gave your assurance that you would do so. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 Moreover, @Edgarcito, what Walt or I may think about free will is irrelevant. You've already wasted too much of our time and effort with irrelevant questions. What is relevant is the "christian/scriptural" concept of free will. That is what is under debate here. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 And, lastly, @Edgarcito, Walt has already shown, multiple times, that scripture makes it clear that we do not have free will, and never did. This is because god planned from the beginning to subject all of creation to disobedience. He only provided the illusion of free will with jesus; but, as you inadvertently pointed out, having only one choice isn't really a choice at all. So, no, from the biblical viewpoint, we do not have free will. Now, answer Walt's questions. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgarcito Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 Here we go. Ultimately the entire thing starts with God. Whether we have free will or none, and suffering, there will be complaining that I had "no choice" or "my choice was violated". So we either have faith that the intentions for humanity were good or they were not within that suffering. And we have to ask if suffering is some sort of necessity or not given the intention. Speculating that the Prof is a no. I'm going to remain faithful that suffering is a necessity. Hoping to have answered all the pending questions. Thx, always a pleasure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 25, 2023 Author Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Edgarcito said: So we either have faith that the intentions for humanity were good or they were not within that suffering. And we have to ask if suffering is some sort of necessity or not given the intention. Faith in what, Ed? Faith in the bible, which plainly states that god's intention was to deliberately subject humanity to suffering so that he could give us the illusion of free will through christ? Or faith in the god who inspired the bible, which plainly states that god's intention was to deliberately subject humanity to suffering so that he could give us the illusion of free will through christ? Either way, if you claim christian faith, you're eventually going to have to accept that god intentionally bound creation to disobedience so that he could demonstrate his "mercy" in forgiving us for the disobedience he bound us to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted June 25, 2023 Share Posted June 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Edgarcito said: Here we go. Ultimately the entire thing starts with God. Whether we have free will or none, and suffering, there will be complaining that I had "no choice" or "my choice was violated". So we either have faith that the intentions for humanity were good or they were not within that suffering. And we have to ask if suffering is some sort of necessity or not given the intention. Speculating that the Prof is a no. I'm going to remain faithful that suffering is a necessity. Hoping to have answered all the pending questions. Thx, always a pleasure.... I'm sorry but I must dash your hopes, Ed. Please note that my three questions required your agreement or non-agreement. From your quoted response, you haven't agreed or disagreed with any of the three things I asked you about. So I'm going to repeat my three questions and ask that you respond with Agree or Disagree. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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