Knowledge vs belief

[walterpthefirst]

16 minutes ago, aik said:

Do you believe that there is no god because you do not see such one?

 

Please answer my questions, aik.

 

Here they are again.

 

 

Jesus is referred to in that verse.  So was it literally true that he was on that mountain?  Y / N ?

 

The devil is referred to in that verse.  So was it literally true that he was also on that mountain?  Y / N ?

 

All the kingdoms of the world are referred to in that verse.

So was it literally true that they could all be seen by Jesus and the devil?  Y / N ?

 

A very high mountain is referred to in that verse.

So was it literally true that all the kingdoms of the world were seen by Jesus and the devil from that mountain?  Y / N ?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Please answer my questions, aik.

 

Here they are again.

 

 

Jesus is referred to in that verse.  So was it literally true that he was on that mountain?  Y / N ?

 

The devil is referred to in that verse.  So was it literally true that he was also on that mountain?  Y / N ?

 

All the kingdoms of the world are referred to in that verse.

So was it literally true that they could all be seen by Jesus and the devil?  Y / N ?

 

A very high mountain is referred to in that verse.

So was it literally true that all the kingdoms of the world were seen by Jesus and the devil from that mountain?  Y / N ?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

I guess i am unable to explain it to you. It seems like to explain difference between colours to a blindborn man. That is why I asked the short one to verify if your logic is so or another. 

[walterpthefirst]

I guess i am unable to explain it to you. It seems like to explain difference between colours to a blindborn man. That is why I asked the short one to verify if your logic is so or another. 

 

 

Well, this is very strange, aik.

 

I have no trouble at all understanding what the verse means. 

 

It means that Jesus and the devil went up to a very high mountain, from which they could both see all of the kingdoms of the world. 

 

Would you agree that this is what it means?

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Let me ask you a direct question, aik.

 

 

In this forum do you always give truthful answers to our questions?

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Would you agree that this is what it means?

no

[aik]

4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Let me ask you a direct question, aik.

 

 

In this forum do you always give truthful answers to our questions?

I always say what i think in myself. It means that my speach fits to my thoughts. Wether it is right or wrong God knows. Saying truthful I understand sincere. If so, then yes. 

 

But if you want to have an answer to rely on absolutely, you have to have Holy Spirit revealing it to you on the basis of the Holy Scripture. In this case you will be confident. I myself can be wrong sure. But God never lies. Rely on what the Bible says. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, aik said:

Rely on what the Bible says. 

Okay.  The bible says that jesus and Satan were on top of a tall mountain and could see all of the kingdoms of the world.  We can rely on that.  It must be true...

 

And yet:

 

14 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

I I have no trouble at all understanding what the verse means. 

 

It means that Jesus and the devil went up to a very high mountain, from which they could both see all of the kingdoms of the world. 

 

Would you agree that this is what it means?

 

 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, aik said:

no

 

... you disagree with what the bible says.  Why should we rely on the bible when you do not do so yourself?

 

Apologies, Walt, if I've spoken out of turn, here.

[aik]

5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Okay.  The bible says that jesus and Satan were on top of a tall mountain and could see all of the kingdoms of the world.  We can rely on that.  It must be true...

 

And yet:

 

 

 

... you disagree with what the bible says.  Why should we rely on the bible when you do not do so yourself?

 

Apologies, Walt, if I've spoken out of turn, here.

I do not see from the verses that they went up to somewhere. Jesus was taken up by the devil to the top of the mountain. Different things. Don't you think so? 

[walterpthefirst]

No apologies necessary, Prof.

 

 

Please answer the Prof's question, aik.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, aik said:

I do not see from the verses that they went up to somewhere. Jesus was taken up by the devil to the top of the mountain. Different things. Don't you think so? 

 

 

Scripture4All Interlinear: Matthew 4

 

oros oros G3735 n_ Acc Sg n mountain

 

uyhlon hupsElon G5308 a_ Acc Sg n HIGH

 

lian lian G3029 Adv VERY

 

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

 

 

Well, this is even more strange aik.

 

The original New Testament Greek says that the devil took Jesus up a very high mountain.

 

Are you suggesting that the bible is not saying that they went up a very high mountain?

[aik]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

 

Scripture4All Interlinear: Matthew 4

 

oros oros G3735 n_ Acc Sg n mountain

 

uyhlon hupsElon G5308 a_ Acc Sg n HIGH

 

lian lian G3029 Adv VERY

 

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

 

 

Well, this is even more strange aik.

 

The original New Testament Greek says that the devil took Jesus up a very high mountain.

 

Are you suggesting that the bible is not saying that they went up a very high mountain?

I never believed that two persons, Jesus and devil, went together to climb up a mountain for Jesus to be tempted by the devil. If someone believes in it I think he better should repent from it. The Bible does not speak about climbing up or walking somewhere in direction to a mountain.

[walterpthefirst]

Since you have affirmed that you tell the truth in this forum aik, then please answer this question truthfully.

 

 

When I posted Matthew 4 : 8 and the picture of a spherical Earth you immediately saw the danger.

 

The danger that what the Bible says about the Earth being flat contradicts the evidence that it is a sphere.

 

Isn't that the truth?

[walterpthefirst]

9 minutes ago, aik said:

I never believed that two persons, Jesus and devil, went together to climb up a mountain for Jesus to be tempted by the devil. If someone believes in it I think he better should repent from it. The Bible does not speak about climbing up or walking somewhere in direction to a mountain.

 

And yet those are the words that are used in the bible.

 

Matthew 4 : 1 - 11

 

1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 

2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 

3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 

6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour. 

9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

 

Please answer these questions truthfully, aik.

 

 

Does verse 1 say that Jesus went into the wilderness?

 

Does verse 5 say that Jesus and the devil went to the holy city?

 

Does verse 5 also say that Jesus stood on the highest point of the temple in the holy city?

 

[aik]

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Does verse 1 say that Jesus went into the wilderness?

yes it does. But even here it is said that the Spirit led Jesus. So it is not necessarily he went, thought I have no problem to understand that he went.

 

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Does verse 5 say that Jesus and the devil went to the holy city?

no it does not.

 

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Does verse 5 also say that Jesus stood on the highest point of the temple in the holy city?

yes it does.

[aik]

11 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Since you have affirmed that you tell the truth in this forum aik, then please answer this question truthfully.

 

 

When I posted Matthew 4 : 8 and the picture of a spherical Earth you immediately saw the danger.

 

The danger that what the Bible says about the Earth being flat contradicts the evidence that it is a sphere.

 

Isn't that the truth?

no it is not. I even have not a thought about a shape of the earth. I mean in the context of what the Bible says or does not say. I saw your imagination of the verse about how the kongdom of the earth was shown to Jesus by the devil. and that is all.

[walterpthefirst]

Does verse 5 say 

12 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Since you have affirmed that you tell the truth in this forum aik, then please answer this question truthfully.

 

 

When I posted Matthew 4 : 8 and the picture of a spherical Earth you immediately saw the danger.

 

The danger that what the Bible says about the Earth being flat contradicts the evidence that it is a sphere.

 

Isn't that the truth?

 

Please answer this question truthfully, aik.

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, aik said:

no it is not. I even have not a thought about a shape of the earth. I mean in the context of what the Bible says or does not say. I saw your imagination of the verse about how the kongdom of the earth was shown to Jesus by the devil. and that is all.

 

Then let us think about the shape of the earth, as described in the bible.

 

 

It says that Jesus and the devil could see all of the kingdoms of the world from the high mountain.

 

That can only happen if the earth is flat.

 

That cannot happen if the earth is a sphere.

 

 

Can you fault my logic?

[aik]

4 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then let us think about the shape of the earth, as described in the bible.

 

 

It says that Jesus and the devil could see all of the kingdoms of the world from the high mountain.

 

That can only happen if the earth is flat.

 

That cannot happen if the earth is a sphere.

 

 

Can you fault my logic?

You cannot go there, until you admit how did they occur on the top of the mountain. So how can you add words to the scpriture to explain for your bright brain what it simply says? Without adding words you are unable to explain to yourself how did they occur on the top of a montain. Right? Because your brain know only that people have to do some movements with there hands and legs, to climb up and walk to get to the top of a mountain. Otherwise they cannot be there. This is your knowledge. 

 

But "the devil took Jesus up to the top of the mountains" is God's truth. And it never says "they went". Does it?

 

So can you explain how did the two occur on the top of the mountain?

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, aik said:

You cannot go there, until you admit how did they occur on the top of the mountain. So how can you add words to the scpriture to explain for your bright brain what it simply says? Without adding words you are unable to explain to yourself how did they occur on the top of a montain. Right? Because your brain know only that people have to do some movements with there hands and legs, to climb up and walk to get to the top of a mountain. Otherwise they cannot be there. This is your knowledge. 

 

But "the devil took Jesus up to the top of the mountains" is God's truth. And it never says "they went". Does it?

 

So can you explain how did the two occur on the top of the mountain?

 

It doesn't matter how they got to the top of the mountain, aik.

 

What matters is what they could see from it.

 

If they could see all of the kingdoms of the world, then the bible is saying that the earth is flat.

 

Which contradicts the evidence that it is spherical.

 

 

So, let me ask you this, aik.

 

Could Jesus and the devil see all of the kingdoms of the world from where they were on the mountain?

 

 

 

 

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

It doesn't matter how they got to the top of the mountain, aik.

 

It does. The two are connected. You cannot go to a shape of the earth without comprehending how they got to the top of the mountain.

[walterpthefirst]

7 minutes ago, aik said:

It does. The two are connected. You cannot go to a shape of the earth without comprehending how they got to the top of the mountain.

 

Why would the shape of the earth make any difference to how they got to the top of the mountain?

 

On a flat earth you start at the bottom and go up to the top.

 

Then, you can look and see all of the kingdoms of the world from there.

 

On a spherical earth you start at the bottom and go up to the top.

 

Then, you can look and NOT see all of the kingdoms of the world - because most of them are over the horizon.

 

In both cases the shape of the earth makes no difference to how you go up the mountain.

 

 

Unless you are suggesting that they went up supernaturally?

[aik]

6 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Why would the shape of the earth make any difference to how they got to the top of the mountain?

 

On a flat earth you start at the bottom and go up to the top.

 

Then, you can look and see all of the kingdoms of the world from there.

 

On a spherical earth you start at the bottom and go up to the top.

 

Then, you can look and NOT see all of the kingdoms of the world - because most of them are over the horizon.

 

In both cases the shape of the earth makes no difference to how you go up the mountain.

 

 

Unless you are suggesting that they went up supernaturally?

They did not went up anywhere. Jesus was taken up by the devil. It was not an ordinary walking or climbin anyway. It does not say so and does not mean. 

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, aik said:

They did not went up anywhere. Jesus was taken up by the devil. It was not an ordinary walking or climbin anyway. It does not say so and does not mean. 

 

So, regardless of how they went there, what could they see, aik?

 

The bible says that they could see ALL the kingdoms of the world.

 

Is that true?

 

Is that what the bible says?

 

 

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

So, regardless of how they went there, what could they see, aik?

 

The bible says that they could see ALL the kingdoms of the world.

 

Is that true?

 

Is that what the bible says?

 

 

Yes it is what the bible says. All kingdoms and their glory were shown to Jesus.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, aik said:

Yes it is what the bible says. All kingdoms and their glory were shown to Jesus.

 

Then, what shape would the earth have to be for that to happen?

 

Flat, perhaps?