Knowledge vs belief

[Hierophant]

37 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I'm not saying miracles are to trick unbelievers. I said they are supposed to happen to glorify God. And this goes back to another lie like the professor is pointing out. 

 

John 14

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it

 

Ok, AIK. This isn't me talking in this verse, it isn't the professor, and it isn't you. This is Jesus. Jesus said,  those that believed on him would do greater works than Jesus did. Because he was going to go to the father. He said anything that is asked in his name that he will do it. 

 

This is a lie. Jesus walked on water. You can't do that Aik. Jesus fed thousands of people with a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread. Edgarcito can't do that. Jesus turned water into wine. If Christians could do that, they would be invited to every wedding in the area. 

 

Face it. This is a lie and the only thing Christians do is give God and Jesus excuses. Why? Because an indoctrinated Christian can't see that it is a lie because the bible says God can't lie. So there must be another reason. So they say "it wasn't God's will" or "he has a plan". 

 

NO!!

He said anything a Christian asked he will do it. 

 

This can not be reconciled. It is a lie. 

 

He even said that if they didn't believe him for his word. That they should believe him because of his works. And that would continue after he was gone. 

 

We shouldn't have to believe by faith alone because you Christians are supposed to be able to perform works to show Gods Glory. If you could do what the Bible says you should be able to do. No one would doubt that the Bible was true. But instead, you can't, and the Bible is just a fictional book of mythology and lies.

 

DB

 

 

You know what is wild to me, why would the author(s) of the gospels even put such a ridiculous statement in their writings. They had to know is was completely baseless, so why even include it? Much like God taking care of sparrows, yet how much more important are humans. Were they blind to the insane amount of suffering happening all around them? Wish I could have been there to slap someone upside the head.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

Wish I could have been there to slap someone upside the head.

You probably would have been burned as a witch or heretic unfortunately. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, aik said:

Listen, Prof. I want to clarify one thing. I am not against you here. Generaly my presence here is not to compete with anyone here. I am against your beliefs and disbelief, and if I fight here, then fight only against sinful thoughts which enslaved you. But you are valuable to our Heavenly Father, and that same feeling he gives me to feel in my heart in some measure. I understand that you are very valuable. 

 

In general we are unable against the truth. We have more bases to believe God than to reject him. But you have to go out of the boxes of your materialism thinking or naturalism or evidentialism. They are not everything. 

 

Look at a child. Do you have a child? Look at a child how faithful he is. A child lives and acts by faith only. What is his education? almost zero. Several days ago my son (4 years old) did something. When I entered my flat after my work, my children as usual met me with joy, ran by me and shout loud words of greetings. Well when my son found out that I brought nothing he started to cry, but frankly speaking I do not bring candies to my children every day, only sometimes. Why did he cry and what did he expect I didn't know. Ok. I told him to go ahead of me and guide me to a market (store), and show me what did he want. So he took on his shoes and took my hand and led me out. He enters the market as a man, bravely, with confidence, he knows what he wants, he knows what he has come for. Well he goes one place after another, chooses what he wished, he really chooses it, thinks to take it or not. Or how many items we shall take it. Counts souls for whom he chooses a thing. And then he decided to take an ice cream. He took it and moved toward a cashier. He was asked about a sack if he needed or not. He agreed to have it. BUT!

 

I want to asked. Did he know how many ruble did his father have at that time? I was not rich at that time, sincerely -))) He didn't. Did he know if his father would pay for it or wouldn't? No. He just accepted that the father said "Let's go". And the word of the father was enough for a little child who can't correctly calculate, who has no idea about work and salaries, it was enough that the father said and he took it and moved, and....finally he gained. He took everything he wanted I said no word against. I enjoyed it. That is faith. Have faith and you will gain. Whoever has faith on God he gains. Finally the benefit overcomes every wirldish evidence.

 

So that is the faith. Look at your children and learn. 

This is a good analogy.  But, imagine this: imagine you had taken your son to the market; and you had told your son, "You can choose anything you want; but, if you do not choose what I want you to have, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue."  This is what god says to us.  He says we have free will; but if we do not choose his way, we will be cast into hell.  He even violates our free will and inflicts suffering in order to coerce us into choosing his way.  In the analogy, you would not be a good father to force your son to choose what you want.  god is also not a good father for the same reason. 

 

I hope your son gets his fill of Olenko chocolate; it's one of my favorites. 

[aik]

8 hours ago, Hierophant said:

 

You know what is wild to me, why would the author(s) of the gospels even put such a ridiculous statement in their writings. They had to know is was completely baseless, so why even include it? Much like God taking care of sparrows, yet how much more important are humans. Were they blind to the insane amount of suffering happening all around them? Wish I could have been there to slap someone upside the head.

It is because you are trying to seat on a judges throne. But try to seriousely get into it and think. Jesus knows about sufferings. Be of humble thinking and be sure that they knew about sufferings however it is written so. Why? It means something that you miss. But try to find that meaning. 

[aik]

7 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is a good analogy.  But, imagine this: imagine you had taken your son to the market; and you had told your son, "You can choose anything you want; but, if you do not choose what I want you to have, I will beat you until you are black, red, and blue."  This is what god says to us.  He says we have free will; but if we do not choose his way, we will be cast into hell.  He even violates our free will and inflicts suffering in order to coerce us into choosing his way.  In the analogy, you would not be a good father to force your son to choose what you want.  god is also not a good father for the same reason. 

 

I hope your son gets his fill of Olenko chocolate; it's one of my favorites. 

That is why i wish you to see the true God. You are lied about God. You resemble satan to a true god. I mean you imagine god according to your state of the spirit, but it is not god who bits you to have from you. This is satan. He does this to you. It is your leader now unfortunately. And you see that all leaders are like him, including God. Putin is like satan, zelensky is likexsatan, biden is like satan and god is like satan to you. Maybe you should be healed? 

 

God does not oppress a man. A man is oppressed because of his lusts. 

 

Come back to the lord Jesus prof. You will benefit the new life. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, aik said:

That is why i wish you to see the true God. You are lied about God. You resemble satan to a true god. I mean you imagine god according to your state of the spirit, but it is not god who bits you to have from you. This is satan. He does this to you. It is your leader now unfortunately. And you see that all leaders are like him, including God. Putin is like satan, zelensky is likexsatan, biden is like satan and god is like satan to you. Maybe you should be healed? 

 

God does not oppress a man. A man is oppressed because of his lusts. 

 

Come back to the lord Jesus prof. You will benefit the new life. 

Bless your heart, son.

[aik]

How can't you accept such blessing? 

 

1Cor 6:12: "“Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything."

 

1Cor 10:23: "“Everything is permissible,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is edifying."

 

Rom 8:32: "He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?"

 

Heb 5:2: "He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and misguided, since he himself is beset by weakness."

 

Heb 5:9: "And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him"

 

Heb 9:15: "Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant."

 

Jam 1:12: "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him."

 

Jam 1:21: "Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly receive the word planted in you, which can save your souls."

 

Don't you see that God's way of thinking is right the opposite of yours? Yours is judging, swaring, mocking the truth and holiness, establishing your human rightousness, accepting sin, rejecting holiness, calling good what evil is. 

 

Look at Jesus. He was mocked but did not forsake his own words, holiness, love and what is good. He was faithful keeping his words that he will die for us. He was faithful when he healed not only those who followed him, but also those who didn't. Jesus is the one who could save a man from lying and taking other's money, and his love made people to change their mind and to give back what was stolen. He never oppressed anyone for sinning. If anyone decided to sin, he never ran after him and caught his neck to bring him back to the temple. He was against sin when cleaned the temple from business and marketing, but none was touched by him. Jesus is not against a man, he is for us. 

 

Jesus also has a power to be so. He was faithful in his holiness, so we can see that he is telling us the truth. 

 

Everyone of you who was really once saved in his life. Remember how you changed at that time, how your way of thinking changed. In.my life at first i was saved then i saw that the bible was true in everything. Not the opposite order. At first sins are forgiven, a man is freed, then he will see that the bible is telling truth about everything. Before being saved you will hear the bible, something you will like, some other things will be not acceptable, and you always will be in doubt. It happens before salvation, it will happen after losing salvation and going back into sin. But Jesus is faithful even now, when you forsake him. He longs for your salvation. He wishes to help you, to accept you, and to restore your faith, even to give more than you had once. This is Jesus. He can do it. 

 

Come back to Jesus tekna.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@TheRedneckProfessor & @DarkBishop,

 

Were y'all like this in your "on fire" days?

 

9 hours ago, aik said:

Remember how you changed at that time, how your way of thinking changed. In.my life at first i was saved then i saw that the bible was true in everything. Not the opposite order. At first sins are forgiven, a man is freed, then he will see that the bible is telling truth about everything.

 

Just to be clear, your interpretation of a translation of a collection of semi-related texts is "true" and the collective experience and collective history of our population is an illusion conjured by satan.  Only if we adopt your interpretation of a translation of a collection of semi-related texts first, then will we also reach your same conclusions.

 

This is called putting the cart before the horse.  You are asking us to attend a magic show and insisting the magic is real, but we can only see magic is real if we first believe it is.  This way of reasoning and understanding reality has yet to produce any consistency in results.

[TABA]

Hey @Krowb this is as good a time as any to mention that anybody who has a Marcus Aurelius quote in their signature gets extra points in my book... 

 

"If anyone can prove and show to me that I think and act in error, I will gladly change it - for I seek the the truth, by which no one has ever been harmed.  The one who is harmed is the one who abides in deceit and ignorance.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, 6.21 "

[TheRedneckProfessor]

13 minutes ago, Krowb said:

@TheRedneckProfessor & @DarkBishop,

 

Were y'all like this in your "on fire" days?

I became a missionary with a one-way airline ticket and $75 in my pocket.  The rest was pure faith.  I just had to get there and let the people know all that jesus had done for me.  The lord would take care of the rest... except for providing the proper visa and work permit for me to actually stay on the mission field.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I became a missionary with a one-way airline ticket and $75 in my pocket.  The rest was pure faith.  I just had to get there and let the people know all that jesus had done for me.  The lord would take care of the rest... except for providing the proper visa and work permit for me to actually stay on the mission field.

To be clear, I definitely believed the magic was real.  I would say, when I had my genuine "born again" experience, I was saved, on-fire, radical, and sold-out; and afterwards began to really study the bible and find it "true."  Of course, I had been indoctrinated since birth ("groomed" more like); so believing in the magic was already part of my programming. 

[aik]

34 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

when I had my genuine "born again" experience, I was saved, on-fire, radical, and sold-out; and afterwards began to really study the bible and find it "true." 

Hmm. very interesting. You could continue. What was before you were saved and born again? What were your thoughts about the Bible? The same as after being saved?

 

One thing is you think that it is true, another thing is you believe it is true. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

54 minutes ago, Krowb said:

@TheRedneckProfessor & @DarkBishop,

 

Were y'all like this in your "on fire" days?

 

 

Just to be clear, your interpretation of a translation of a collection of semi-related texts is "true" and the collective experience and collective history of our population is an illusion conjured by satan.  Only if we adopt your interpretation of a translation of a collection of semi-related texts first, then will we also reach your same conclusions.

 

This is called putting the cart before the horse.  You are asking us to attend a magic show and insisting the magic is real, but we can only see magic is real if we first believe it is.  This way of reasoning and understanding reality has yet to produce any consistency in results.

Yes, I was like this when I had my salvation experience. Aka "when I got saved". I started out only knowing what was taught in Sunday school or what I picked up from the preacher growing up. It wasn't until after salvation that I started studying. And Like @aik I believed that the Bible could only be understood by believers through the Holy spirit. As the scripture says. 

 

1 corinthians 2

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

I completely understand where aik is coming from in the quoted statement. I believed and was taught that knowledge and wisdom in God's Word was given by the spirit. And that it wasn't necessary to be formally educated to become a minister. The Holy Ghost was my instructor and that is all I needed. Unfortunately Christians don't understand how we were once there and did all of that and still lost faith. Just as you quoted. Aik is suggesting that we never had gods spirit and therefore never truly knew God's "true" word. If we had he is convinced that we wouldn't be here. 

 

Yes I believed in the "magic" or as I called it the Power of God. I believed people could be healed, I believed mountains could be moved, hell I believed that if I could get my faith strong enough that I could walk on water. After all, Jesus did say we would be able to do everything he did and more. I was like you said. "On fire" for God and very zealous. I had no doubt the bible was true and inerrant for years. And at first any discrepancy I saw I decided was just due to my lack of understanding. After years of study that thought became illogical. 

 

But who knows Krowb. Maybe I wasn't a true Scotsman and Aik has all the answers for me.

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

40 minutes ago, aik said:

Hmm. very interesting. You could continue. What was before you were saved and born again? What were your thoughts about the Bible? The same as after being saved?

 

One thing is you think that it is true, another thing is you believe it is true. 

I know this question wasn't for me. But I'll give my answer anyway. I was raised Christian. Specifically Baptist. But during my teens and early 20s I rebelled and practiced Wicca. Which is considered witchcraft. 

 

When I was 22 an uncle by marriage witnessed to me and gave me a copy of the gospel singing group he was a part of. While listening to his tape the next day and reflecting on his testimony of what God had done for him in his life. I felt what I thought was Gods conviction bearing down on me telling me I needed his salvation that I had been taught about as a child. I drove back to my Aunts and Uncles house. Crying the whole way, praying and seeking salvation. When I got there I prayed with my uncle and received salvation. The next service I was baptized by full immersion. 

 

And the rest is history. I had a burning desire to learn God's word and always felt that God's spirit was guiding me. Just like the leaders of 38,000 other denominations felt. I'm sure. 

 

DB

[aik]

18 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Yes, I was like this when I had my salvation experience. Aka "when I got saved". I started out only knowing what was taught in Sunday school or what I picked up from the preacher growing up. It wasn't until after salvation that I started studying. And Like @aik I believed that the Bible could only be understood by believers through the Holy spirit. As the scripture says. 

 

1 corinthians 2

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

I completely understand where aik is coming from in the quoted statement. I believed and was taught that knowledge and wisdom in God's Word was given by the spirit. And that it wasn't necessary to be formally educated to become a minister. The Holy Ghost was my instructor and that is all I needed. Unfortunately Christians don't understand how we were once there and did all of that and still lost faith. Just as you quoted. Aik is suggesting that we never had gods spirit and therefore never truly knew God's "true" word. If we had he is convinced that we wouldn't be here. 

 

Yes I believed in the "magic" or as I called it the Power of God. I believed people could be healed, I believed mountains could be moved, hell I believed that if I could get my faith strong enough that I could walk on water. After all, Jesus did say we would be able to do everything he did and more. I was like you said. "On fire" for God and very zealous. I had no doubt the bible was true and inerrant for years. And at first any discrepancy I saw I decided was just due to my lack of understanding. After years of study that thought became illogical. 

 

But who knows Krowb. Maybe I wasn't a true Scotsman and Aik has all the answers for me.

 

DB

Who knows, maybe you are on your way back to Christ. 

 

If you understand me correctly, one of the most crazy things in the world (or for the world) is to believ in Jesus Christ. It is obviously illogical. From the point of view of the world. But we believers know it. But also we know that benefit of having Jesus in our lives costs more than the life itself. Because Jesus is the very life. Even if I lose my whole life Jesus will give me more. His presence is awsome, it changes me, it makes me to be a new man, which we can only dream in the best dreams. Presence of Jesus makes me to love even the one who hates me. What logic? what physics? Spirit is the life. In such a case even if the whole physics and chemistry will show that there is no Jesus, i choose that Jesus, whom I already know. It is not my power not my ability but the mercy of God. 

 

The same doors are open also for you, my lost brothers. Jesus is the value of life. Because with him you will overcome even if your education tells you that you are done. Praised be the lord Jesus Christ. May God bring you back to a loving home.

[aik]

7 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

I know this question wasn't for me. But I'll give my answer anyway. I was raised Christian. Specifically Baptist. But during my teens and early 20s I rebelled and practiced Wicca. Which is considered witchcraft. 

 

When I was 22 an uncle by marriage witnessed to me and gave me a copy of the gospel singing group he was a part of. While listening to his tape the next day and reflecting on his testimony of what God had done for him in his life. I felt what I thought was Gods conviction bearing down on me telling me I needed his salvation that I had been taught about as a child. I drove back to my Aunts and Uncles house. Crying the whole way, praying and seeking salvation. When I got there I prayed with my uncle and relieved salvation. The next service I was baptized by full immersion. 

 

And the rest is history. I had a burning desire to learn God's word and always felt that God's spirit was guiding me. Just like the leaders of 38,000 other denominations felt. I'm sure. 

 

DB

It means that salvation presedes understanding of the truth. One cannot understand the truth with a sinful heart. So the same happens when a man goes back to sin. Even less. When a believer keeps some small sin in his heart, he starts understand things opposite, arguing other believers and making tiny tiny steps astray. It is a Spiritual "Physics". Learn it. You cannot trick God and his word, but you can accept it and believe in it. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 minutes ago, aik said:

The same doors are open also for you, my lost brothers. Jesus is the value of life. Because with him you will overcome even if your education tells you that you are done. Praised be the lord Jesus Christ. May God bring you back to a loving home.

Lol I love you Aik. You're a breath of fresh air and so kind hearted. I know that deep down you only want to see us free from the dangers of sin and hell. I don't agree with you anymore. But it is so nice to see a Christian that truly believes and doesn't start cursing and calling names. I always get disappointed when that happens. You hold true to the bible and I respect that. 

 

DB

[TABA]

8 minutes ago, aik said:

His presence is awsome, it changes me, it makes me to be a new man

 

I say it is your belief in his presence that does these things: changes you, makes you a new man.  Other men have been changed and made new by different beliefs, including ones that are in conflict with Christianity.

[Hierophant]

18 minutes ago, aik said:

Who knows, maybe you are on your way back to Christ. 

 

If you understand me correctly, one of the most crazy things in the world (or for the world) is to believ in Jesus Christ. It is obviously illogical. From the point of view of the world. But we believers know it. But also we know that benefit of having Jesus in our lives costs more than the life itself. Because Jesus is the very life. Even if I lose my whole life Jesus will give me more. His presence is awsome, it changes me, it makes me to be a new man, which we can only dream in the best dreams. Presence of Jesus makes me to love even the one who hates me. What logic? what physics? Spirit is the life. In such a case even if the whole physics and chemistry will show that there is no Jesus, i choose that Jesus, whom I already know. It is not my power not my ability but the mercy of God. 

 

The same doors are open also for you, my lost brothers. Jesus is the value of life. Because with him you will overcome even if your education tells you that you are done. Praised be the lord Jesus Christ. May God bring you back to a loving home.

 

This kind of faith only works when it goes unchallenged. What do you do whenever you meet someone who claims they are also living their lives for God, but then accuse you of heresy and hellfire because you do not believe a certain set of doctrines, and they use the Bible to proof text their beliefs? Christianity is not a united front. Behind the scenes, Christians are fighting amongst themselves as to who are real Christians.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

45 minutes ago, aik said:

Hmm. very interesting. You could continue. What was before you were saved and born again? What were your thoughts about the Bible? The same as after being saved?

 

One thing is you think that it is true, another thing is you believe it is true. 

Like you, moy droog, at the time I would have said that I know the bible is true.  Not just think or believe; but know.

 

If you were to spend some time reading our stories in the Testimonials forum, you might find our that our faith, our beliefs, our "walk with christ" experiences were no different from your own.  We knew, just as you know.

 

I wasn't just "saved," my son; I was filled with the holy spirit.  I had the gift of prophecy, and the gift of wisdom.  I was preaching sermons in front of the church before I even got hair on my balls.  There are people to this day, who are christian, either because I "led them to the lord" personally, or because the power of god, and the anointing of the holy spirit, was so strong in my life that merely being in my presence was enough for them to repent.  I led street evangelism ministries, not just here in America, but also in Venezuela, Mexico, Ireland, and Ukraine; and I saw people accept christ in every single one of those countries.  There were times when I could simply look at a person on the street and they would burst into tears, crying out for jesus to cleanse them of their sins and come into their hearts.  There were times when the holy spirit would give me a "word" to speak into some random stranger's life; and that "word" was exactly what they needed to hear.

 

There are people in my parents' church who still today, twenty years since I last cast a shadow on the church door, remember how the presence of god would fill a room as soon as I walked in.  I don't take my loss of faith lightly, my son; nor would you, should it ever happen in your life.

 

But you are not special, droog.  Your experience is not unique.  We all had the exact same experience.  We all read the same bible, had the same holy spirit.  The evidence we had as christians is the same evidence you have.  The standards by which we measured ourselves as True Scotsmen are the same standards you are using now to measure yourself as one.

 

I sincerely hope that you never lose your faith; because I know, from my own experience, how sincere you are, and how much your faith means to you.  But I do want you to know, if the day ever comes when the veil is lifted, and the scales fall from your eyes, and you find that your faith has left you, I will be here for you.  I will help you learn to live again.  We all will, I'm sure.

[aik]

1 minute ago, DarkBishop said:

Lol I love you Aik. You're a breath of fresh air and so kind hearted. I know that deep down you only want to see us free from the dangers of sin and hell. I don't agree with you anymore. But it is so nice to see a Christian that truly believes and doesn't start cursing and calling names. I always get disappointed when that happens. You hold true to the bible and I respect that. 

 

DB

I wish to tell you on this. 

 

I am an evil one, which can easily dissapoint you. I live among the muslim you know. At first of my steps of commincation with them I was like Muhammed with a sword in my hand being ready to cut heads. -))) I took the power of Gods word and attacked their beliefs with a "zeal" you know. Not healthy zeal. They kept themselves away from me at that time -))). 

 

But time is past. Then Jesus was teaching me humbleness before God and love toward them. He showd me, reavealed to me to really understand, not by brains only but by spirit, that He shed His holy blood for them also equally as for me. When I started to understand this I started to see them in another way. It is again about how we see on the basis what lives in our heart. When my heart is filled with love by knowing Jesus sacrifice, I see how valuable people are for Jesus, and they become as valuable for me. But when I forget, for example today or tomorrow, what Jesus has done for me, I am the same sinner as I was before. Why? because every man is a sinner without the grace of Jesus Christ. There is nothing good which pertains to me. Because I remember who I am and from which trash hole God saved me. Do you remember your story? Recollect all iniquity which lives in your heart, and I do it myself, and try to love it. Can you? But recollect all treasury of Jesus' Spirit. This was once given to you when you believed Him, and you lost it when you chose sin. 

 

Come back to Jesus and His Father and your Father, and He will restore you again. 

[aik]

12 minutes ago, TABA said:

 

I say it is your belief in his presence that does these things: changes you, makes you a new man.  Other men have been changed and made new by different beliefs, including ones that are in conflict with Christianity.

try to be changed into holiness believing Muhammed. You will fail. You will become just like Muhammed. Not more. 

[aik]

3 minutes ago, Hierophant said:

 

This kind of faith only works when it goes unchallenged. What do you do whenever you meet someone who claims they are also living their lives for God, but then accuse you of heresy and hellfire because you do not believe a certain set of doctrines, and they use the Bible to proof text their beliefs? Christianity is not a united front. Behind the scenes, Christians are fighting amongst themselves as to who are real Christians.

My brother in Christ who is now in the Ukraine, I told you about him before, once told me that a christian should keep his sword close in its pocket when he speaks to his brothers and open for fight when he speaks to opponents. This is what we are tought in the church. 

 

But also we have understanding of some things in another way than others do. Variety is not a bad thing at all. Variety makes us to fill one another. But if a variety touches truth and some people call themselves to be a christial but profess sinful way of life, we condemn it in public for others, to be safe. There are christian communities who teach filthiness of flesh is allowed because the flesh and blood will not inherit heaven. And they teach other to do whatever they wish in their sinful minds. We are against it and the Bible is against it. 

 

And we see that after such teaching their leaders and followeres go astray from the biblical teaching, violating it one after another. 

 

Jimmy Swaggart was one of the most famous evagelists in 70-80's. He was popwerful. But look what happened to him. Unfitunately he fell into sexual sin. He confessed publicly his sin. And his ministry was stopped by elder of the Assembly of God. But did he obey?  No, he didn't. He started his company. And he changed his theology, understanding of holiness. And what we hear today from him is wnother gospel comapring to what he had in late 80's. Think over it.

 

Do not let people take you away from true God. That is why sometimes we believers are strict in our beliefs. Because such things can happen. 

 

But when christians all what they do is to fight with one wnother, it is completely incorrect and destrys the work of the gospel in the world.

 

Three men of God from three various countries and three various denominations were selected to go to Iraq for ministry. They were welcome and well accepted by the ministry  in Iraq. They asked about denominations in Iraq and met a strict answer. The Iraqi man said that the basic thing is not to be a JW. All others are welcome here. And he added, if you wish to have success among the muslim, you neved be divided and do not let them to see that you argue with one another. It will completely distroy your work here. They will think, if those christians have not unity with one another so how are they trying to bring us to their Jesus? And I agree with this thought. 

 

Why am i saying this? That many believers left Jesus because of other believers. I am convinced that it shouldn't be so. A man should not influence on my knowledge of Jesus. A man does influence but the influence of the holy spirit and the scripture brings a believer back. 

[aik]

34 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Like you, moy droog, at the time I would have said that I know the bible is true.  Not just think or believe; but know.

 

If you were to spend some time reading our stories in the Testimonials forum, you might find our that our faith, our beliefs, our "walk with christ" experiences were no different from your own.  We knew, just as you know.

 

I wasn't just "saved," my son; I was filled with the holy spirit.  I had the gift of prophecy, and the gift of wisdom.  I was preaching sermons before I got hair on my balls.  There are people to this day, who are christian, either because I "led them to the lord" personally, or because the power of god, and the anointing of the holy spirit, was so strong in my life that merely being in my presence was enough for them to repent.  I led street evangelism ministries, not just here in America, but also in Venezuela, Mexico, Ireland, and Ukraine; and I saw people accept christ in every single one of those countries.  There were times when I could simply look at a person on the street and they would burst into tears, crying out for jesus to cleanse them of their sins and come into their hearts.  There were times when the holy spirit would give me a "word" to speak into some random stranger's life; and that "word" was exactly what they needed to hear.

 

There are people in my parents' church who still today, twenty years since I last cast a shadow on the church door, remember how the presence of god would fill a room as soon as I walked in.  I don't take my loss of faith lightly, my son; nor would you, should it ever happen in your life.

 

But you are not special, droog.  Your experience is not unique.  We all had the exact same experience.  We all read the same bible, had the same holy spirit.  The evidence we had as christians is the same evidence you have.  The standards by which we measured ourselves as True Scotsmen are the same standards you are using now to measure yourself as one.

 

I sincerely hope that you never lose your faith; because I know, from my own experience, how sincere you are, and how much your faith means to you.  But I do want you to know, if the day ever comes when the veil is lifted, and the scales fall from your eyes, and you find that your faith has left you, I will be here for you.  I will help you learn to live again.  We all will, I'm sure.

Go on. all this time you are telling me an atheistic garbage to make me believe that you lost your faith only because you understood that science was true?  I do not believe it anymore. Go on please. What happened then? What made you to leave Jesus? 

[Hierophant]

18 minutes ago, aik said:

My brother in Christ who is now in the Ukraine, I told you about him before, once told me that a christian should keep his sword close in its pocket when he speaks to his brothers and open for fight when he speaks to opponents. This is what we are tought in the church. 

 

But also we have understanding of some things in another way than others do. Variety is not a bad thing at all. Variety makes us to fill one another. But if a variety touches truth and some people call themselves to be a christial but profess sinful way of life, we condemn it in public for others, to be safe. There are christian communities who teach filthiness of flesh is allowed because the flesh and blood will not inherit heaven. And they teach other to do whatever they wish in their sinful minds. We are against it and the Bible is against it. 

 

And we see that after such teaching their leaders and followeres go astray from the biblical teaching, violating it one after another. 

 

Jimmy Swaggart was one of the most famous evagelists in 70-80's. He was popwerful. But look what happened to him. Unfitunately he fell into sexual sin. He confessed publicly his sin. And his ministry was stopped by elder of the Assembly of God. But did he obey?  No, he didn't. He started his company. And he changed his theology, understanding of holiness. And what we hear today from him is wnother gospel comapring to what he had in late 80's. Think over it.

 

Do not let people take you away from true God. That is why sometimes we believers are strict in our beliefs. Because such things can happen. 

 

But when christians all what they do is to fight with one wnother, it is completely incorrect and destrys the work of the gospel in the world.

 

Three men of God from three various countries and three various denominations were selected to go to Iraq for ministry. They were welcome and well accepted by the ministry  in Iraq. They asked about denominations in Iraq and met a strict answer. The Iraqi man said that the basic thing is not to be a JW. All others are welcome here. And he added, if you wish to have success among the muslim, you neved be divided and do not let them to see that you argue with one another. It will completely distroy your work here. They will think, if those christians have not unity with one another so how are they trying to bring us to their Jesus? And I agree with this thought. 

 

Why am i saying this? That many believers left Jesus because of other believers. I am convinced that it shouldn't be so. A man should not influence on my knowledge of Jesus. A man does influence but the influence of the holy spirit and the scripture brings a believer back. 

 

I am not talking about the Swaggerts of Christianity, but those who believe their interpretation of the Bible is correct, and yours is wrong. How can you know if you are correct, but others who challenge your doctrine are incorrect?