Knowledge vs belief

July 31, 2023

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

Then, what shape would the earth have to be for that to happen?

Flat, perhaps?

We cannot go to the issue of the shape until we solve the problem of the way they occured on the top of the mountain.

Do not jump from a place to a place. Stay on the verse how they occured on the mountain. Do you agree that the Bible does not say that they went up to the mountain by walking or climbing whatever?

July 31, 2023

2 minutes ago, aik said:

We cannot go to the issue of the shape until we solve the problem of the way they occured on the top of the mountain.

Do not jump from a place to a place. Stay on the verse how they occured on the mountain. Do you agree that the Bible does not say that they went up to the mountain by walking or climbing whatever?

Why not?

Why is this a problem?

Please explain why knowing the way they got to their place on the mountain makes any difference to what they could see from there.

July 31, 2023

7 minutes ago, aik said:

We cannot go to the issue of the shape until we solve the problem of the way they occured on the top of the mountain.

Do not jump from a place to a place. Stay on the verse how they occured on the mountain. Do you agree that the Bible does not say that they went up to the mountain by walking or climbing whatever?

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour.

It says that the devil took him.

Please explain why this makes any difference to what they could see.

July 31, 2023

11 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Why not?

Why is this a problem?

Please explain why knowing the way they got to their place on the mountain makes any difference to what they could see from there.

Ok. If you admit only the physical laws and powers in the universe, then you will have no chance to see how Jesus occured on the top of the mountain, but only explaining it by his going to somewhere or climbing on a mount. Because there is no other ways to do it without technologies.

But if we know God who can creat the world, move shadows, resurrect the dead, heal a blindborn man etc, then we can easily believe that there are supernatural powers, spiritual powers and a spiritual world, where physical laws are not the only laws.

For instance Phillip was taken from a wilderness to somewhere in the book of Acts. How? I do not know. But I have reasons to believe that God has power to do it in any way he wishes.

The same is here. How did they occur on the top of the mountain? I do not know, but I know for sure that it did not happen in an ordinary way. Because the Bible uses the word "taken up".

If Jesus could be brought to the top of a mountain by a supernatural way then all the kingdoms of the world could be shown to him by the same supernatural way. It is so simple.

That is why i did not want to go to kingdoms without finishing this point.

July 31, 2023

2 minutes ago, aik said:

Ok. If you admit only the physical laws and powers in the universe, then you will have no chance to see how Jesus occured on the top of the mountain, but only explaining it by his going to somewhere or climbing on a mount. Because there is no other ways to do it without technologies.

But if we know God who can creat the world, move shadows, resurrect the dead, heal a blindborn man etc, then we can easily believe that there are supernatural powers, spiritual powers and a spiritual world, where physical laws are not the only laws.

For instance Phillip was taken from a wilderness to somewhere in the book of Acts. How? I do not know. But I have reasons to believe that God has power to do it in any way he wishes.

The same is here. How did they occur on the top of the mountain? I do not know, but I know for sure that it did not happen in an ordinary way. Because the Bible uses the word "taken up".

If Jesus could be brought to the top of a mountain by a supernatural way then all the kingdoms of the world could be shown to him by the same supernatural way. It is so simple.

That is why i did not want to go to kingdoms without finishing this point.

And 40 minutes ago I wrote this.

Why would the shape of the earth make any difference to how they got to the top of the mountain?

On a flat earth you start at the bottom and go up to the top.

Then, you can look and see all of the kingdoms of the world from there.

On a spherical earth you start at the bottom and go up to the top.

Then, you can look and NOT see all of the kingdoms of the world - because most of them are over the horizon.

In both cases the shape of the earth makes no difference to how you go up the mountain.

Unless you are suggesting that they went up supernaturally?

So, there is nothing wrong with my understanding of scripture, aik.

I knew that some Christians believe that they were taken up spiritually.

You could have made this discussion much easier if you had simply answered my question, when I put it to you.

July 31, 2023

If Jesus and Satan have some power that allows them to somehow see all the kingdoms and civilizations, then why would they need to go up to the top of a mountain to see them?

edit: Going to the top of the mountain confirms that these super beings were using the same physical laws that humans needed to use to see far.

This bible passage show that the writer was ignorant of the shape of the earth and thought the earth was flat. Jesus and Satan would have to go up somewhere high to look over the flat earth to see all the kingdoms if the earth was flat. Which it isnt.

You have been avoiding the painfully obvious fact that this bible passage is nonsense. You are an intelligent person, Aik. Do you really believe the half-baked nonsense you have been presenting about this bible passage?

July 31, 2023

24 minutes ago, midniterider said:

If Jesus and Satan have some power that allows them to somehow see all the kingdoms and civilizations, then why would they need to go up to the top of a mountain to see them?

edit: Going to the top of the mountain confirms that these super beings were using the same physical laws that humans needed to use to see far.

This bible passage show that the writer was ignorant of the shape of the earth and thought the earth was flat. Jesus and Satan would have to go up somewhere high to look over the flat earth to see all the kingdoms if the earth was flat. Which it isnt.

You have been avoiding the painfully obvious fact that this bible passage is nonsense. You are an intelligent person, Aik. Do you really believe the half-baked nonsense you have been presenting about this bible passage?

Of course the author of the passage here was ignorant about the shape of the earth. I think all of them were so. But it is stupid to think that they had to graduate from the same university as we to speak about what happened there in the wilderness with jesus and satan. If you convince so yourselves then you lie to yourselves about the truth. If you just try to convince me that there is no god just because the bible says that someone was able to see all the kingdoms, and none in yhe world can do it, then you failed. Why because the truthfulness of the bible is proven not by the science but by Jesus. Do i understand everything? No. Do you understand everything? No. Does it make the bible to be false? No.

I know in whom i believe. But it really looks stupid when a grown man says, look jesus went to the top of the mountain and saw all kingdoms and it is impossible because the earrh is not flat. This calls for pity. If you cannot see your own cheek without a mirror, how do you try to see god without faith?

July 31, 2023

37 minutes ago, midniterider said:

If Jesus and Satan have some power that allows them to somehow see all the kingdoms and civilizations, then why would they need to go up to the top of a mountain to see them?

edit: Going to the top of the mountain confirms that these super beings were using the same physical laws that humans needed to use to see far.

This bible passage show that the writer was ignorant of the shape of the earth and thought the earth was flat. Jesus and Satan would have to go up somewhere high to look over the flat earth to see all the kingdoms if the earth was flat. Which it isnt.

You have been avoiding the painfully obvious fact that this bible passage is nonsense. You are an intelligent person, Aik. Do you really believe the half-baked nonsense you have been presenting about this bible passage?

You are wasting your time, midniterider.

I'm not pursuing dialogue with aik about Matthew 4 any more because it is pointless.

He can trump anything we say that is based upon logic or evidence or even the plain meaning of scripture.

He does this by using the same kind of circular logic found in this sentence.

Why because the truthfulness of the bible is proven not by the science but by Jesus.

All we can do is to try to illuminate the faultiness of his thinking for the benefit of the other members and the lurkers.

He may be able to fool himself but he won't fool them.

Thank you,

Walter.

July 31, 2023

9 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

You are wasting your time, midniterider.

I'm not pursuing dialogue with aik about Matthew 4 any more because it is pointless.

He can trump anything we say that is based upon logic or evidence or even the plain meaning of scripture.

He does this by using the same kind of circular logic found in this sentence.

Why because the truthfulness of the bible is proven not by the science but by Jesus.

All we can do is to try to illuminate the faultiness of his thinking for the benefit of the other members and the lurkers.

He may be able to fool himself but he won't fool them.

Thank you,

Walter.

The only thing that you cannot do, it is to cancel Jesus. Because he distroyed the lies of satan and proclaimed life to us. Praised be the Lord God Jesus Christ.

July 31, 2023

2 minutes ago, aik said:

The only thing that you cannot do, it is to cancel Jesus. Because he distroyed the lies of satan and proclaimed life to us. Praised be the Lord God Jesus Christ.

You are in danger of bearing false witness against me, aik.

Nowhere in this thread or in this forum have I ever claimed or even implied that I could do what you say.

I stand on the objective, independent evidence. That is all.

If you wish to believe that my doing this is in any way an attempt to cancel Jesus, then you are simply wrong.

And I forgive you for being mistaken about me.

July 31, 2023

Oh and I also forgive you for implying that I am stupid and deserving of your pity, aik.

The record in this thread will show that earlier on I asked you if Jesus and the devil went up the mountain supernaturally.

But, either by default or by intent you didn't answer my question.

Thus leaving me not knowing that this was your true belief about this verse.

And this confirms what I said just now about my standing only on the evidence.

By not answering my question you denied me evidence of your true beliefs about Matthew 4 : 8.

Which you later revealed.

So, if you simply missed my question, then I forgive you for doing making this mistake.

Or, if you did see it and deliberately withheld your answer, then I also forgive you for doing that.

Thank you,

Walter.

July 31, 2023

41 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

You are in danger of bearing false witness against me, aik.

Nowhere in this thread or in this forum have I ever claimed or even implied that I could do what you say.

I stand on the objective, independent evidence. That is all.

If you wish to believe that my doing this is in any way an attempt to cancel Jesus, then you are simply wrong.

And I forgive you for being mistaken about me.

I do not mean that you say something about it. I am claiming that you cannot do this. Just that.

July 31, 2023

27 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

Oh and I also forgive you for implying that I am stupid and deserving of your pity, aik.

The record in this thread will show that earlier on I asked you if Jesus and the devil went up the mountain supernaturally.

But, either by default or by intent you didn't answer my question.

Thus leaving me not knowing that this was your true belief about this verse.

And this confirms what I said just now about my standing only on the evidence.

By not answering my question you denied me evidence of your true beliefs about Matthew 4 : 8.

Which you later revealed.

So, if you simply missed my question, then I forgive you for doing making this mistake.

Or, if you did see it and deliberately withheld your answer, then I also forgive you for doing that.

Thank you,

Walter.

You are a good man Walter. I want you to see that you have a spirit besides your body. And that spirit is from God. If there is no God than you have no reason to forgive me. By forgiving me you confirm that there is God.

July 31, 2023

5 minutes ago, aik said:

I do not mean that you say something about it. I am claiming that you cannot do this. Just that.

And since your claim about Jesus is not supported by independent evidence, why should it be believed?

You have admitted that you have no independent evidence to present to us.

So this is just another of your unsupported claims.

July 31, 2023

4 minutes ago, aik said:

You are a good man Walter. I want you to see that you have a spirit besides your body. And that spirit is from God. If there is no God than you have no reason to forgive me. By forgiving me you confirm that there is God.

You are wrong, aik.

Atheists and sceptics have a good reason for forgiving those who wrong them.

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

I have no need of god to forgive you.

I do so because that is that way I would like to be treated by you, if our positions were reversed.

If I were the one who had wronged you.

July 31, 2023

46 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

You are wrong, aik.

Atheists and sceptics have a good reason for forgiving those who wrong them.

Golden Rule - Wikipedia

I have no need of god to forgive you.

I do so because that is that way I would like to be treated by you, if our positions were reversed.

If I were the one who had wronged you.

By this rule you proved what i say.

July 31, 2023

4 hours ago, aik said:

The only thing that you cannot do, it is to cancel Jesus. Because he distroyed the lies of satan and proclaimed life to us. Praised be the Lord God Jesus Christ.

Why do we have to praise Jesus? Does Jesus lack confidence? Does he have low self-esteem? Why do YOU have to promote Jesus? Why doesnt he promote himself?

I dont have to cancel Jesus. He never existed.

July 31, 2023

3 hours ago, aik said:

By this rule you proved what i say.

You have not supported your claim with any evidence, aik.

Can you support your claim of proof with independent evidence?

If so, then please present it.

If not, then your claim fails for lack of supporting evidence.

July 31, 2023

4 hours ago, aik said:

By this rule you proved what i say.

Moy droog. The "Golden Rule" was not an original teaching of jesus, or of christianity. In fact, over 500 years before jesus supposedly existed, the Buddha said, “Whatever is disagreeable to yourself, do not do unto others” (The Buddha, Udana-Varga 5.18 – 6th century BC). Citing a variation of this rule does not prove your religion true, any more than it proves the Buddhist religion true. It doesn't demonstrate that a spirit exists, or that Walt has a spirit, or that any spirit up to and including the one potentially possessed by Walt came from god.

It simply demonstrates that a lot of people from a lot of places all around the world throughout history have considered it a good idea to treat others as you would like to be treated.

August 1, 2023

7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

You are wasting your time, midniterider.

Yep.

7 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Why because the truthfulness of the bible is proven not by the science but by Jesus.

Like Matt Dillahunty says, "I just don't believe you" , Aik.

August 1, 2023

8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Why because the truthfulness of the bible is proven not by the science but by Jesus.

Like Matt Dillahunty says, "I just don't believe you" , Aik.

Agreed.

Also, beyond the simple matter of us just not believing aik, there's his use of a circular argument to make his 'proof'.

The Jesus written about in the bible proves the truth of... the bible!

However, if aik means the Jesus who proves the truth of the bible is the Jesus who speaks to him spiritually...

...then that still only proves it aik himself. Not to us.

We are not party to his spiritual conversations with Jesus.

Nor can we accept his claim about this 'proof' by faith.

We are realists and sceptics and have no religious faith.

We want to see the independent evidence that supports his claims.

Thank you,

Walter.

August 1, 2023

9 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

All we can do is to try to illuminate the faultiness of his thinking for the benefit of the other members and the lurkers.

He may be able to fool himself but he won't fool them.

Amen. At this point have to wonder why Aik persists. It must be maddening to spend countless hours pleading with heathens, praying to an invisible silent god for guidance, and still get absolutely no where. I wonder how long he will keep this up before he finally realizes his god is impotent here and that - as an instrument of his god - he has failed. Its almost sad to watch.

August 1, 2023

23 minutes ago, freshstart said:

It must be maddening to spend countless hours pleading with heathens, praying to an invisible silent god for guidance, and still get absolutely no where.

Or perhaps, with a delusion, a person may actually get charged up by battling with the infidels??

The infidels seem to be getting charged up by battling the christians.

August 1, 2023

6 hours ago, freshstart said:

Amen. At this point have to wonder why Aik persists. It must be maddening to spend countless hours pleading with heathens, praying to an invisible silent god for guidance, and still get absolutely no where. I wonder how long he will keep this up before he finally realizes his god is impotent here and that - as an instrument of his god - he has failed. Its almost sad to watch.

Posted 4 hours ago

My beloved friends. Maybe i am done here. I am very grateful to God for having acquainted with you though in a distance and for such an experience i had with you. I wish you to be safe and secure, my friends.

From this time on i will come here rarely. That is why i wish to say warm and lovely words to everyone here.

You are more valuable than you ever thought. I hope you will know this better than you had known it before.

Jesus loves you.

Weezer and Bishop have my email address. If anyone wishes, he is welcome to contact me.

August 1, 2023

5 hours ago, Weezer said:

Or perhaps, with a delusion, a person may actually get charged up by battling with the infidels??

The infidels seem to be getting charged up by battling the christians.

If the infidels get charged up by dismantling the spurious claims, baseless assertions and evidence-free beliefs of the Christians, where's the harm in that?

Providing that the infidels remain polite and logical and make a stand on the evidence, isn't that serving the best interests of the forum, regardless of any ego boost certain individuals might get from the process?

Conversely, if the infidels don't resist the Christians at every point, doesn't that play into the very hands of the Christians who will take the lack of resistance as proof that they have the truth and we don't?

That they are right and we are wrong?

That their mission from god is succeeding?

aik's admission that he might be leaving us seems to indicate that our 'charged up' resistance has worked.

If so, then our getting charged up seems to be a price worth paying.

Knowledge vs belief

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