Knowledge vs belief

[aik]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

A witnesses testimony on its own or one supported by independent evidence?

 

Please answer THAT question.

Both have equal power before the court. 

[aik]

5 minutes ago, aik said:

Both have equal power before the court. 

https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-33-the-criminal-courts/the-trial/evidence-and-witnesses/

[aik]

Just now, aik said:

https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-33-the-criminal-courts/the-trial/evidence-and-witnesses/

I am walking now. I found just the first given link in google, about relationship between evidence and a witness.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

49 minutes ago, aik said:

Nope. But now i have no time to type and answer. Maybe later i will refer to what you have said here. 

Take your time, moy droog.  I'm in no hurry.

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, aik said:

Both have equal power before the court. 

 

This is false.

 

If a witness in the court testifies that they were at the metro station between 9 and 10 in the morning but other witnesses and cctv footage show that they didn't arrive at the station until 10 : 30, which version of events is more reliable?

 

You see aik?

 

The two testimonies do not have equal power before the court.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

This got so lengthy I didn't read all of it, but it seems knowledge is being considered as fact.  Knowledge is not fact.  I can KNOW what someone told me about Jesus.  But I do not KNOW him, or know that he exists.  Things we think we know can turn out to be false.  The term KNOW is used very loosley at times.

 

Ha!  I once knew a schizophrenic who KNEW that satan chased him around his house at one time.  Did it actually happen??

[aik]

14 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

This is false.

 

If a witness in the court testifies that they were at the metro station between 9 and 10 in the morning but other witnesses and cctv footage show that they didn't arrive at the station until 10 : 30, which version of events is more reliable?

 

You see aik?

 

The two testimonies do not have equal power before the court.

A lying witness will never have power at any instance, man. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 minute ago, aik said:

A lying witness will never have power at any instance, man. 

Well, that certainly explains how so many innocent people get framed for crimes they didn't commit.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, Weezer said:

Ha!  I once knew a schizophrenic who KNEW that satan chased him around his house at one time.  Did it actually happen??

You knowing him probably happened.  I don't think the satan part did.

[aik]

6 hours ago, Weezer said:

This got so lengthy I didn't read all of it, but it seems knowledge is being considered as fact.  Knowledge is not fact.  I can KNOW what someone told me about Jesus.  But I do not KNOW him, or know that he exists.  Things we think we know can turn out to be false.  The term KNOW is used very loosley at times.

 

Ha!  I once knew a schizophrenic who KNEW that satan chased him around his house at one time.  Did it actually happen??

Yeah, i knew exacly the same situation. Our neighbour who lived above our flat in yerevan, he started to cry, runnin his own appartment, we heard it. When we so him, he had a wooden sword, which he had made for some decoration. He tried to hit the demons by the sword. He told us that demons chased after him, and when he was sleeping they jumped over him, got his throat and shaked him. And it happened every day. Then, shortly speaking, we told him about Jesus, and suggested him that our brothers can come and pray for him. So he believed, and it happened. Brothers came and did their service. And everything gone, God helped that man. At the same day. It never was repeated again. 

[walterpthefirst]

42 minutes ago, aik said:

A lying witness will never have power at any instance, man. 

 

I didn't say that the witness was lying, aik.

 

They could genuinely believe that they were at the metro station between 9 and 10 in the morning.

 

Their testimony was true was far as they were concerned.

 

But they were mistaken.

 

Their knowledge was faulty.

 

 

The truth was only revealed by checking and testing their testimony against other independent sources.

 

Personal testimony that is unsupported by independent evidence is not as reliable as testimony that is.

 

So, since none of the Christians I mentioned earlier had any way of independently checking and testing the testimony of the apostles for themselves, how could they know if this testimony was reliable?

 

For that matter, how can you know if the testimonies written in the bible are reliable?

 

 

You have admitted that you have no evidence that you can check or test or present to us.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

4 minutes ago, aik said:

Yeah, i knew exacly the same situation. Our neighbour who lived above our flat in yerevan, he started to cry, runnin his own appartment, we heard it. When we so him, he had a wooden sword, which he had made for some decoration. He tried to hit the demons by the sword. He told us that demons chased after him, and when he was sleeping they jumped over him, got his throat and shaked him. And it happened every day. Then, shortly speaking, we told him about Jesus, and suggested him that our brothers can come and pray for him. So he believed, and it happened. Brothers came and did their service. And everything gone, God helped that man. At the same day. It never was repeated again. 

 

And with no independent evidence to corroborate your story, how do we know that your testimony is reliable?

 

I'm not saying that you are lying, I'm just saying how can we know that this true?

 

Your word is not reliable if it isn't supported by independent evidence.

 

 

 

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

I didn't say that the witness was lying, aik.

Its not up to you my friend to decide.

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

And with no independent evidence to corroborate your story, how do we know that your testimony is reliable?

 

I'm not saying that you are lying, I'm just saying how can we know that this true?

 

Your word is not reliable if it isn't supported by independent evidence.

 

 

 

I don't  care

[walterpthefirst]

Just now, aik said:

Its not up to you my friend to decide.

 

Exactly, the jury will decide on the basis of the evidence.

 

But now I must ask you, which testimony is more reliable?

 

The one given by the witness who said he was at the station between 9 and 10?

 

Or the ones given by the other witnesses and the cameras that say he didn't get there until 10:30?

 

 

Which one is more reliable?

 

Which one is true?

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, aik said:

I don't  care

 

Oh, so the truth doesn't matter to you?

[aik]

21 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Oh, so the truth doesn't matter to you?

I mean if you do not believe the testimony, i am not going to make you to believe by force. You are free to choose. I respect your choice. 

[aik]

On 7/1/2023 at 2:08 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Moy droog, did you know that if you do exactly what the Dharma says, you will realize that you are already sinless to begin with, and only need to take a few simple, practical steps in order to become a better person in this life and have a better incarnation in the next life? 

 

It's true.  Millions of practicing Buddhists have done it and are witnesses.  And the Buddha spirit, which is in everyone, also testifies the truth of it.  May Quan Am pour her compassion upon you.

 

Do you see the problem here, moy droog?  The Buddhist has the same "evidence" that you have.  They have a holy book, an enlightened spirit, witnesses... everything you have.  Only the information is different; and therefore, the belief.

 

You will claim that their book is false, but yours is true.  You will claim that their witnesses are deceived, but yours alone speak the truth.  You will claim that the Buddha spirit is a demon from hell, but the holy spirit is god almighty himself.

 

But you cannot support your claims with any kind of evidence that they don't also have.  Thus, your claims fall under the category of Special Pleading, which is an informal logical fallacy.  Arguments built upon a foundation of fallacy cannot be reliable.

 

When it comes to what you believe, you should believe whatever brings you peace, comfort, happiness, and goodness in this life.  But when it comes to convincing others to believe with you, you need to offer them some kind of evidence that no other religion or philosophy has to offer, in order to demonstrate that your beliefs really are the Truth.  But that's simply not possible.  Not for you.  Not for the Buddhist.  Not for the Mohammedan. 

 

This is the difference between belief and knowledge. 

If the buddism is true or false it does not influence on what i say. 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, aik said:

I mean if you do not believe the testimony, i am not going to make you to believe by force. You are free to choose. I respect your choice. 

 

And I can't make you answer my questions by force, either.

 

All I can do is ask and then respect your choice to not answer.

 

So, I'll ask you again and if you don't answer, I'll respect your choice not to answer.

 

And then I'll ask again and keep on asking, respecting your choice each time.

 

 

aik, please answer the question I put to you 2 hours ago.

 

Which testimony is more reliable?

 

The one given by the witness who said he was at the station between 9 and 10?

 

Or the ones given by the other witnesses and the cameras that say he didn't get there until 10:30?

 

 

Which one is more reliable?

 

Which one is true?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Yeah, i knew exacly the same situation. Our neighbour who lived above our flat in yerevan, he started to cry, runnin his own appartment, we heard it. When we so him, he had a wooden sword, which he had made for some decoration. He tried to hit the demons by the sword. He told us that demons chased after him, and when he was sleeping they jumped over him, got his throat and shaked him. And it happened every day. Then, shortly speaking, we told him about Jesus, and suggested him that our brothers can come and pray for him. So he believed, and it happened. Brothers came and did their service. And everything gone, God helped that man. At the same day. It never was repeated again. 

 

Well it probably never happened in the first place. I'm not saying your lying, I'm sure he thought demons were after him, but it was all in his mind. Most likely some type of mental breakdown that the belief in Christ made go away. He believed Christ drove the demons away therefore the invisible demons in his mind went away. The mind is a powerful thing. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, aik said:

If the buddism is true or false it does not influence on what i say. 

That may be true, moy droog; but it is hardly the point.  The point is that the Buddhist has "evidence," same as you.  And while the Buddhist's evidence convinces her that Buddhism is true, the same evidence would not convince you that Buddhism is true.  The same applies to the "evidence" that the Mohammedan has, which convinces him that Islam is true; but would not convince you.

 

This creates a level playing field among religions, in which no one can know that what they have is true.  They can only believe by faith.

 

Now the bible tells us that faith comes by hearing the word of god.  But the Muslim's faith comes by hearing the Koran.  The Buddhist's faith comes by hearing the Dharma.  Is the bible wrong about where faith comes from?  Or do the Koran and Dharma both also contain the word of god?  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, aik said:

I don't  care

Good morning AIK, it has been a long time since I've talked to you. I'm glad your still around and posting from time to time. 

 

Ofcourse you don't care, you've been brainwashed to deny any evidence that doesn't coincide with your beliefs. I don't think it would matter if a paleontologist sat down with you and explained all the different ways humans had evolved over the course of time, put the bones they have found in front of you, and pointed out all the variations that led to homosapiens. 

 

It is all there Aik. The fossil record, the Information, you can see pictures of various bones they have found. 

 

But

 

You

 

Will

 

Not

 

See

 

It.

 

Why?

 

Because your faith has locked your rational mind from seeing anything outside of your faith. You will see reason in any other aspect of life. Work, family, laws, government, medicine, history, geography,, archeology, scholarly work, etc, etc, etc. But as soon as any of that information casts doubt on your faith. You are not going to see it.

 

Maybe your God isn't so much a God of love and truth as much as he is a God of Lies and deception. Even to the point that it had to be placed in scripture that you need to believe and have faith without seeing. That verse is probably there because people in the church were beginning to question. And questioning is a danger to the church. Questions lead to answers, and truthful/factual answers (if accepted) lead to disbelief.

 

Friend, I am hesitant to say I hope you see what we have seen one day. Because I think it would really hurt you. Your fervent belief reminds me a lot of my own at one point in time. Me deconverting has been a blessing and a curse. It ruined my marriage but also gave me peace of mind as I started getting answers to questions that long plagued me. It seems to have brought me and my children closer together while simultaneously distancing me from some family and friends. But if you ever do see it. Hopefully I'll still be around to help you through the grief. That is the best description I can make. Grief. I believe I went through all the stages of it when I deconverted. After all, I Lost a father, a brother, and a wife when I stopped believing in the bible. 

 

Sincerely,

Dark Bishop

[aik]

I am reading a story of FedupWithit and some other stories have i read, i wish to ask, wasn't there in usa only one pastor who could listen to her, to take care of her to help her to be recovered and out of this tribulation? What kind of gospel are you preached there? I am so much surprised and confused about american life. When we were kids here, everyone was dreaming to leave to america. We grew up thinking that the best life is in america. Then i in my 20s understood that the best place of life is where you are at at the moment. Started to understand. And i stopped dreaming about america. So now having read the story of fedupwithit i am afraid to advice to someone to go to the usa. Wasn't there one church who could take care of her faith which is not firmed on Jesus?! What is going on there? Having so many believers around, was there anyone leading to the true path of stedfast walk in Jesus? I am starting to think that america is another world for me comparing to what i saw. 

 

Here churches are place of spiritual healing, recovering, motivation for life, for having a strong character and much more. Faith is healing a broken man. 

 

I am surrounded here with muslims, our region is islamic, and i feel such a pity looking at them. Sometimes i realize that you feel the same talking with me, but it comes because you think about me out of your experience, so as do i in relation to you. I have to correct this thinking. So those muslim guys are good people and collegues of mine. But they really try to find spiritual recovery in a religion, traditions and manmade rules. The fear from devil is obvious among them. Yesterday one of them asked me if we christians have some rules about which hand to use for different purposes, for eating, and for doing bad things. I was shocked knowing that you should eat with your right hand because the satan eats with his left one, and just for not being like him you should use your right hand for it. It is religion. It kills a soul instead of giving life. 

 

An orthodox community here also has become something like islam applying so many manmade rules that they forgot about pure faith. 

 

When i speak about the faith, i think you imagine something which you have seen. Maybe there is something in christianity which you haven't seen yet?

 

I mean, sometimes we hear about a believer who was burdened with fear of hell, but pastors accept them, speak with them showing that such a man has to leave his faith that he has now, and build his faith on Jesus only according to the gospel. 

 

Of course those who live denying god should have fear of hell because there will come a day of judgement. That is why i am still here tryng to bring you a true gospel. But as soon as one accepts Jesus, and gives his life to Jesus, this fear is crushed by Jesus himself. A new life comes. Before believing Jesus i wanted to become rich and famous, but after i met Jesus i have a life which i never exchange with any sum of money or fame. 

 

Of course in our life we have temptations, guys. I mean when some killing thoughts try to get into you when you are a fresh christian. Such as, Jesus has not saved you, You have done this sin you will go to hell and etc. But it worth only open the gospel and read that the one who once confesses his sin will be forgiven forever and God will never turn back to it. Yes, it is a matter of faith to have it accepted in your heart, but it is the faith built upon the true gospel. And this faith recovers and puts you to go on serving Jesus. 

 

Faith is what you and me have. You also live by faith. When you go out of your house you are sure that a brick will not fall on your head and kill you near the house, though it happens sometimes. But you anyway take on your cloth and take your wallet and a tablet and go out. But who does from you sit before the door in the flat and take a pen with paper and calculate if the brick will kill him or not? You do not do it i think. So your faith drives you to go out without fear. Without fear. Without fear. This is faith. 

 

But the faith should be built on a true foundation. So everyone of us know, that there will come a day of leaving this world. So a man has to choose beforehand isvther an afterlife or it does not exist. So you are saying that there is not an afterlife and live your life thinking easy, and try to convince yourself that everything is ok, but still having a burden of sins, enmities with relatives, unsatisfied of life, memory about wrong actions toward others, having not forgiven someone and someone has not forgiven you etc. And a body will decay and over. 

 

The only fact of having a burden in your heart when you do wrong shows that there is God. Otherwise no burden would come around. There would be no need in it. And if there is God and you having tried to live with God were crushed in your faith, then try to find, why the Jesus who told you that his words were spirit and life, That he came to give you an abundant life, that whatever i ask in his name hi gives it, that lames will walk and blinds will se, that whoever believes in him has complete rejoice that will not be taken off, that the kingdom of god is righteousnes, peace, rejoice in holy spirit, and not a meal and drink. Why that Jesus was unable to save you? Maybe it was a wrong Jesus? Maybe you were building your faith upon a wrong gospel? It happens unfortunately. Churches promise money health and success and try to attract believers, and believers come then the faith is crushed. And in the result we have a website Ex-C. But the reason is not Jesus, the reason was a wrong faith on a wrong Jesus and a wrong gospel. It also happense with believers who are in true churches. A wrong faith can be in any beliver. Even me, i have things which i do not truly know for now, and i do not put my life on it. But there is a thing which i have known, tested, tried, have results, and it accords with the gospel, and i keep it. 

 

And so you can do the same, my dear people. Maybe what you have done in faith was in vain, and you need to try starting from a blank page. 

 

We are men and we never can say that we know everything. Try to critically think about your this time beliefs like you are doing in relation with christian faith. You will be surprised knowing that you now are believers also, but not believers in Jesus, but believers in dawkins, hitchens, evolutions, and so many things. Try to critically think over those things. 

 

 

Everyone of you is valuable for Jesus.

 

God bless you.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Hello aik.

 

 

It's a new day, so once again I'll ask you that question.

 

 

Which testimony is more reliable?

 

The one given by the witness who said he was at the station between 9 and 10?

 

Or the ones given by the other witnesses and the cameras that say he didn't get there until 10:30?

 

 

Which one is more reliable?

 

Which one is true?

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, aik said:

 

Faith is what you and me have. You also live by faith. When you go out of your house you are sure that a brick will not fall on your head and kill you near the house, though it happens sometimes. But you anyway take on your cloth and take your wallet and a tablet and go out. But who does from you sit before the door in the flat and take a pen with paper and calculate if the brick will kill him or not? You do not do it i think. So your faith drives you to go out without fear. Without fear. Without fear. This is faith. 

 

 

You are conflating two different things here, aik.

 

 

There are statistical chances that something will kill us, but these things are not supernatural.

 

This is totally different from your faith in invisible and intangible supernatural things.

 

There is real and physical evidence for the things that might kill us.

 

But there is no evidence for the supernatural things you believe in by faith.

 

 

When asked you admitted that you could present no evidence for these supernatural things.

 

So, your example is false and compares two different things.